UK to LSDAS GPA

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FlanAl
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UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FlanAl » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:15 pm

I have seen a few posts on this topic from a few years ago but with no answers. Has anyone had the LSDAS assess their UK undergrad grades? I am mostly curious as to how 1:1 , 2:1, 2:2 are interpreted by LSAC. Also at Scottish schools only your last two years are factored into your GPA does LSAC take this into account some how? Thanks very much just trying to figure out how doomed I actually am.

albanach
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby albanach » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:42 pm

They will not give you a GPA, simply rate your degree in terms of below average, average, above average, ...

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chelsea9305
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby chelsea9305 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:38 am

I went to a UK school and recently had my degree evaluated. Even though your degree classification is taken from your honors classes, the LSAC takes an average from all classes. As the above poster mentioned, they do not give a GPA, but a superior, above average, average, or below average label. In addition, they provide a scale, but no direct GPA conversion.

The scale they give:
17-20 First Class Honours - A
14-16 Second Class First Div B+/B
11-13 Second Class 2nd Div B/B-
8-10 Pass C
5-7 Marginal Pass D

This scale was different than the one my university provided, which was more favorable.

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FlanAl
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FlanAl » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:43 am

Thank You Very Much!!!
This was very helpful. Since you aren't given a GPA do you think the LSAT is really the deciding factor for your admissions? I'll be applying in te fall and wasn't sure if getting a 2:2 would completely rule out any of the t 14. I'm hoping for a 2:1 but have been absolutely raped in exams before. Do you know if the schools have to report some kind of GPA for you to USNEWS? Thanks again for all your help I've been trying to figure this out from LSAC for a while now and they are always really cryptic.

DO you go to school down south? (guessing from the chelsea name)

thanks again

funkylicks
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby funkylicks » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:16 am

Here's the scale LSAC included on my official transcript evaluation:

70-100% Class I - US Grade A
60-69% Class II Div I - US Grade B+
50-59% Class II Div II - US Grade B/B-
40-49% Third/Pass - US Grade C
0-39% - US Grade F

I had a LOR writer emphasise how my 2:1 was somewhere around a A-/B+ equivalent since it is a slightly grey area. I believe that 2:1 is somewhere in the 3.4 GPA region from my own research.

I hope this helps mate!

albanach
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby albanach » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:45 am

There's no GPA to report, so while they'll consider the report, especially if you just graduated, the LSAT will have a heavier weighting from most schools.

Without significant post-university work experience, they'll still be looking at that report, so like the other poster mentioned, a good LOR explaining and playing-up your score will, I think, be useful.

lollypotter
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby lollypotter » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:56 pm

Hi

I rarely post anymore but having done a cycle and watched like 3 cycles, here's what you need to know as an international student:

- your degree will be ranked average, above average etc.
- LSAC uses your transcript so if only your last two years are factored in your degree, try to get your uni to remove your first year grades (I did so successfully)
- Try to find a rank and put it somewhere in your application as it gives it some weight
- Your uni reputation will matter more - in fact all intangibles will so make your application water tight.
- Your LSAT will matter more
- A 2:1 can considered from about a 3.3 to a 3.7 depending on what it is in, how high it is and where it is from. They are not reported to USNews.
- Foreign URMS count
- buy Richard Montauk's book - it will teach you about positioning yourself as a valuable candidate.

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FlanAl
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FlanAl » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:40 pm

So a 2:1 from Oxbridge is better than a 2:1 from say plymouth or aberdeen? If your school is in the top 20 in the UK are you doin alright?

For those with a 2:1 how did/is your cycle go/going? Is it pretty much going like you had a 3.4 from a US undergrad if you were to plug your LSAT into the law school predictor?

Anyone know if classes that you took in the US get factored in some how and are they reported to USNEWS?

Also wanted to say thanks to everyone for their posts this has been very helpful.

davidr1534
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby davidr1534 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:07 pm

I submitted my transcripts, and they rated a first (BA) from Uni of York as superior and a merit (MA) from Uni of London as above average. I wonder if they factor that they are only 3 and 1 year courses into it as well?

xqhp82
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby xqhp82 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:04 pm

davidr1534 wrote:I submitted my transcripts, and they rated a first (BA) from Uni of York as superior and a merit (MA) from Uni of London as above average. I wonder if they factor that they are only 3 and 1 year courses into it as well?


I don't think the years you spent in undergrad would matter that much, as long as you've completed what's required of your uni.

I'm really annoyed by myself because it seems like I can never pass that 'first class' boundary...I'm constantly around 65-68%. any hope to get "superior" on my LSAC transcript?!

lollypotter
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby lollypotter » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:06 am

They only care about the length of degree if you come from a country with a poor educational reputation. It won't matter for the UK - it'll be counted as equivalent.

2:1 seems to definitely equal an above average but if you are high you should rank high, which should make a difference. It's not like LSAC makes them count the 'superiors', it's a holistic judgement about how smart you are. Get a RANKING. Do you think they will care much if you are top 12% or top 10%?

Yes FlanAl - all being equal, a 2:1 from Oxbridge would be better, but generally all things aren't equal.

Foreign students are like URMs in that their applications are less numbers centric because they don't rely as much on USNWR. But this means that all of the intangibles matter more.

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FlanAl
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:49 pm

Thanks lollypotter for all the info! were you an applicant from the uk yourself? how did you find the transition to school in the us if this is the case? thanks again for your input

xqhp82
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby xqhp82 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:55 pm

Hi lollypotter,

How can I get a ranking written on my transcript? do UK unis usually do that or do I need to ask for it personally?
And how would the % be like if I got 69%? Just checking if the percentage is worth showing on paper
Also is the ranking comparable to all students in my year or is it degree specific? my degree has rather few students (only about 40 in my year) so it could make a massive difference in terms of percentage.

Thanks!

lollypotter
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby lollypotter » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:32 pm

hey guys,

sorry - not checking regular here. I'm from the UK, yes. Diff: everyone does the work in the US (not like the UK where you can faff around as much). Probably because education costs so much! But I wouldn't be worried as the UK has a great education system and int students are a self selected bunch.

For the ranking, what you need to do is call your school or specific department and see if they will add the ranking to your transcript (some will, some won't). It may take a while of people saying they can't, before someone realises they can cos the natural inclination of these departments is to say no. It may take the department liaising with the records office etc and people are lazy.

As for which ranking - get the one which makes you look best. That's what I did. If the school won't budge on the transcript, submit an addendum along with your transcript or get your recommender to mention it specifically. Basically you want to make sure that they see it.

Another thing to try is to get a Dean's certificate in early and ask them to add it to that.

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FlanAl
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FlanAl » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:06 pm

Out of curiosity how screwed are you if you get below a 2:1? If you have a rockin LSAT would that make up for a third? a lower second?

Anyone have any thoughts

Also thanks again lollypotter for helping with everyone's questions

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cigrainger
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby cigrainger » Sun May 02, 2010 5:09 am

lollypotter wrote:hey guys,

sorry - not checking regular here. I'm from the UK, yes. Diff: everyone does the work in the US (not like the UK where you can faff around as much). Probably because education costs so much! But I wouldn't be worried as the UK has a great education system and int students are a self selected bunch.

For the ranking, what you need to do is call your school or specific department and see if they will add the ranking to your transcript (some will, some won't). It may take a while of people saying they can't, before someone realises they can cos the natural inclination of these departments is to say no. It may take the department liaising with the records office etc and people are lazy.

As for which ranking - get the one which makes you look best. That's what I did. If the school won't budge on the transcript, submit an addendum along with your transcript or get your recommender to mention it specifically. Basically you want to make sure that they see it.

Another thing to try is to get a Dean's certificate in early and ask them to add it to that.



Thanks so much for all this info -- very awesome. So I'm at Edinburgh and only the last 2 years are honours years. Does this mean I can submit only those years to LSAC? Thats the standard transcript Edinburgh sends out, if I'm not mistaken. And a first gets deemed 'superior'?

xqhp82
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby xqhp82 » Sun May 02, 2010 8:29 am

cigrainger wrote:
lollypotter wrote:hey guys,

sorry - not checking regular here. I'm from the UK, yes. Diff: everyone does the work in the US (not like the UK where you can faff around as much). Probably because education costs so much! But I wouldn't be worried as the UK has a great education system and int students are a self selected bunch.

For the ranking, what you need to do is call your school or specific department and see if they will add the ranking to your transcript (some will, some won't). It may take a while of people saying they can't, before someone realises they can cos the natural inclination of these departments is to say no. It may take the department liaising with the records office etc and people are lazy.

As for which ranking - get the one which makes you look best. That's what I did. If the school won't budge on the transcript, submit an addendum along with your transcript or get your recommender to mention it specifically. Basically you want to make sure that they see it.

Another thing to try is to get a Dean's certificate in early and ask them to add it to that.



Thanks so much for all this info -- very awesome. So I'm at Edinburgh and only the last 2 years are honours years. Does this mean I can submit only those years to LSAC? Thats the standard transcript Edinburgh sends out, if I'm not mistaken. And a first gets deemed 'superior'?


I'm currently a second year...if I plan to apply in the upcoming cycle, i'm sure they'll consider my first year grades as well right? otherwise i'm pretty screwed........

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cigrainger
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby cigrainger » Sun May 02, 2010 3:32 pm

xqhp82 wrote:
cigrainger wrote:
lollypotter wrote:hey guys,

sorry - not checking regular here. I'm from the UK, yes. Diff: everyone does the work in the US (not like the UK where you can faff around as much). Probably because education costs so much! But I wouldn't be worried as the UK has a great education system and int students are a self selected bunch.

For the ranking, what you need to do is call your school or specific department and see if they will add the ranking to your transcript (some will, some won't). It may take a while of people saying they can't, before someone realises they can cos the natural inclination of these departments is to say no. It may take the department liaising with the records office etc and people are lazy.

As for which ranking - get the one which makes you look best. That's what I did. If the school won't budge on the transcript, submit an addendum along with your transcript or get your recommender to mention it specifically. Basically you want to make sure that they see it.

Another thing to try is to get a Dean's certificate in early and ask them to add it to that.



Thanks so much for all this info -- very awesome. So I'm at Edinburgh and only the last 2 years are honours years. Does this mean I can submit only those years to LSAC? Thats the standard transcript Edinburgh sends out, if I'm not mistaken. And a first gets deemed 'superior'?


I'm currently a second year...if I plan to apply in the upcoming cycle, i'm sure they'll consider my first year grades as well right? otherwise i'm pretty screwed........


I'm sure. I was just asking if it was possible not to, as he seems to indicate above.

FilleNouvelle
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FilleNouvelle » Sun May 02, 2010 3:54 pm

cigrainger wrote:Thanks so much for all this info -- very awesome. So I'm at Edinburgh and only the last 2 years are honours years. Does this mean I can submit only those years to LSAC? Thats the standard transcript Edinburgh sends out, if I'm not mistaken. And a first gets deemed 'superior'?
[/quote]

I graduated from Edinburgh last year. I haven't done my LSDAS evaluation yet or applied to law school, but I can tell you that the transcripts they issue include grades from all years. Getting the registry to remove those years also would be next to impossible. I have a first...so I'm just hoping it gets treated as a superior and not something less because of mediocre first year grades.

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webbylu87
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby webbylu87 » Sun May 02, 2010 3:59 pm

I did my undergrad in the UK as well and have applied to LS in 2 cycles now but will be attending Illinois in the fall. PM me if you have any questions as I know this is a difficult process for those with a foreign degree. There's not much help out there for us so I'll do my best to offer any advice people might have!

But anyways, your transcript will have your first year grades on it (at least at my uni it did) but they don't get figured into your final degree classification. So schools will be able to see your first year grades, but like I said, they don't figure into your overall classification. This may depend on the uni/degree/region but I believe this is pretty standard across the UK.

FilleNouvelle
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby FilleNouvelle » Sun May 02, 2010 4:13 pm

webbylu87 wrote:I did my undergrad in the UK as well and have applied to LS in 2 cycles now but will be attending Illinois in the fall. PM me if you have any questions as I know this is a difficult process for those with a foreign degree. There's not much help out there for us so I'll do my best to offer any advice people might have!

But anyways, your transcript will have your first year grades on it (at least at my uni it did) but they don't get figured into your final degree classification. So schools will be able to see your first year grades, but like I said, they don't figure into your overall classification. This may depend on the uni/degree/region but I believe this is pretty standard across the UK.


Hey! So when you did get your LSDAS conversion, did it seem like 1st=Superior, 2:1=Above Average, etc., regardless of your first year grades (that didn't count in your classification)?

xqhp82
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby xqhp82 » Sun May 02, 2010 4:21 pm

webbylu87 wrote:I did my undergrad in the UK as well and have applied to LS in 2 cycles now but will be attending Illinois in the fall. PM me if you have any questions as I know this is a difficult process for those with a foreign degree. There's not much help out there for us so I'll do my best to offer any advice people might have!

But anyways, your transcript will have your first year grades on it (at least at my uni it did) but they don't get figured into your final degree classification. So schools will be able to see your first year grades, but like I said, they don't figure into your overall classification. This may depend on the uni/degree/region but I believe this is pretty standard across the UK.


omg...so that means they'll be able to see my 1st year grades, however my degree classfication will be solely based on my 2nd year results...............? i actually did ok in my 1st year, i was hoping that it could pull the average up a bit but guess not. i want to cry now theres no way i can get a first this year:(

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webbylu87
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby webbylu87 » Sun May 02, 2010 4:37 pm

FilleNouvelle wrote:Hey! So when you did get your LSDAS conversion, did it seem like 1st=Superior, 2:1=Above Average, etc., regardless of your first year grades (that didn't count in your classification)?


Yeah, it did. I graduated with a 2:1 so mine said "above average."

xqhp82 wrote:omg...so that means they'll be able to see my 1st year grades, however my degree classfication will be solely based on my 2nd year results...............? i actually did ok in my 1st year, i was hoping that it could pull the average up a bit but guess not. i want to cry now theres no way i can get a first this year:(


Well that was the rule at my uni. First year grades were not figured into your overall degree classification. Check with your uni but I'm sure that's pretty standard. And don't be upset about not getting a first. A 2:1 is perfectly respectable.

xqhp82
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby xqhp82 » Sun May 02, 2010 5:25 pm

i'm just a bit worried because i always get a high 2:1 (67%-69%), it's so close to a first yet not a first..if LSDAS marks it as 'above average' then it doesn't seem to distinguish between 60% and 69% as a GPA would...

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webbylu87
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Re: UK to LSDAS GPA

Postby webbylu87 » Sun May 02, 2010 5:34 pm

xqhp82 wrote:i'm just a bit worried because i always get a high 2:1 (67%-69%), it's so close to a first yet not a first..if LSDAS marks it as 'above average' then it doesn't seem to distinguish between 60% and 69% as a GPA would...


This was one of my big gripes as well. I graduated with a high 2:1 but yeah, there was no difference according to LSDAS. (I'm going to copy and paste a lot of this from a PM conversation I had with FlanAl cause I don't feel like retyping it :)) So this is the conversion chart provided to schools on your JD CAS evaluation (I'm not sure if this fluctuates based on the school or if it's standard for all but I have hunch it's standard):

70-100 First Class A
60-69 Upper Second Class B+
50-59 Lower Second Class B-
40-49 Third Class C
35-39 Ordinary C
0-34 Fail F

Now I personally think there should be a bit more stratification within their conversion chart. Everyone I've spoken to who is familiar with both systems seems to agree with me that there should two separate markings within the Upper Second Class: 60-64 as a B+ and 65-59 as an A-. There is a noticeably different quality of work between a 60 and 65 which LSAC doesn't recognize. Alas, c'est la vie. They'll do as they want and we have to make do with their conversion guidelines however frustrating they may be. This sucks but what can you do? I did address this in the addendum though and I think having an LOR from someone who can testify to the fact that not all 2:1s are equal would be very helpful.




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