How do I learn litigation Forum
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How do I learn litigation
Are there resources out there that can assist me with how to litigate (preparing a complaint, filing an answer, discovery, etc.)? I feel like there are so many rules it’s almost overwhelming. Would a practice guide in my jurisdiction help me? Should I look up similar cases in my jurisdiction to see how they were handled? How can I find similar cases? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
What is the context for this question? Are you a solo practitioner or working in a firm or what?
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Yes opened a solo practice few months ago and now have a PC with a litigation matter that I may handle.
- cavalier1138
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Which jurisdiction are you in? Are you likely filing in state court? Have you considered teaming up with someone who will actually know what the fuck they're doing before you ask a client to pay you for your services?Anonymous User wrote:Yes opened a solo practice few months ago and now have a PC with a litigation matter that I may handle.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
The best substantive answer I can give is look at your local rules and try to reach out to someone in that practice area for guidance? Yes, looking at filings in similar cases could be helpful, but that will be hard to do unless the jurisdiction has electronic filing and you can come up with some case names or numbers to search for. A local practice guide may help - kind of depends what’s out there. Frankly also check if the court has any guides for pro se plaintiffs available?
But really you should look for guidance from someone who knows what they’re doing. Are there are solo groups as part of your regional bar association?
But really you should look for guidance from someone who knows what they’re doing. Are there are solo groups as part of your regional bar association?
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Re: How do I learn litigation
You should look for a co-counsel. In my experience, it takes YEARS to learn how to litigate - and that's just the basics. It's one thing to understand the general outline of the rules, but in practice, things can be very different. The potential profit-loss inherent in bringing in a co-counsel is likely outweighed by a malpractice claim.
As far as resources, it's hard to say without knowing where you are. In California, the Rutter guide is amazing. I'm sure other states have similar guides. Good luck!
As far as resources, it's hard to say without knowing where you are. In California, the Rutter guide is amazing. I'm sure other states have similar guides. Good luck!
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Re: How do I learn litigation
There are litigation practice guides (probably for every state) which will walk you through the process. May want to think about whether you believe you can handle the client's case without screwing it up - may be best both for the client and you.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Consider finding experienced co-counsel or withdrawing. Ethically you may be required to not proceed with the case if you don't have a rudimentary, bare-bones knowledge of how to handle a civil lawsuit. And if you stay on the case, make sure you aren't billing your client for researching the basics that you should already know as a competent civil attorney. That may sound harsh, but it's a matter of protecting your reputation and your bar card. There are a lot of ways to mess up a civil case, I can tell you this from firsthand experience.
I opened up my own firm after about four years of private firm experience, mainly my background was in criminal defense and about 20% personal injury / civil litigation.
In my first year as a solo, I refused to take any civil cases, other than anti-harassment orders, which are quasi-criminal. There are so many pitfalls about civil litigation cases as a new attorney / solo, I'd steer clear until you're truly comfortable that it's not going to result in likely malpractice.
I opened up my own firm after about four years of private firm experience, mainly my background was in criminal defense and about 20% personal injury / civil litigation.
In my first year as a solo, I refused to take any civil cases, other than anti-harassment orders, which are quasi-criminal. There are so many pitfalls about civil litigation cases as a new attorney / solo, I'd steer clear until you're truly comfortable that it's not going to result in likely malpractice.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Op here...
Thanks for the responses. I do have a couple mentors that I can go to for guidance. Also, I do have around 5 years of mostly transactional experience with some litigation experience.
There is also not much at stake here (~$3-6k) if that makes a difference. I figure I need to pop my cherry sometime...
But I’m also still considering whether I should just refer it out and stick to real estate transactional work... idk...
Thanks for the responses. I do have a couple mentors that I can go to for guidance. Also, I do have around 5 years of mostly transactional experience with some litigation experience.
There is also not much at stake here (~$3-6k) if that makes a difference. I figure I need to pop my cherry sometime...
But I’m also still considering whether I should just refer it out and stick to real estate transactional work... idk...
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Re: How do I learn litigation
What's the nature of the case? If it's something complex, I'd probably refer it out. If not overly-daunting, it sounds like a good starter case as long as you have guidance. You are right that you need to start somewhere. When I was doing PI cases, one thing that helped me a lot was to refer medium-sized cases (with no referral fee) and ask to be passive co-counsel, so I'd get to see how to properly handle the case.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Thanks for your response.JOThompson wrote:What's the nature of the case? If it's something complex, I'd probably refer it out. If not overly-daunting, it sounds like a good starter case as long as you have guidance. You are right that you need to start somewhere. When I was doing PI cases, one thing that helped me a lot was to refer medium-sized cases (with no referral fee) and ask to be passive co-counsel, so I'd get to see how to properly handle the case.
It’s a landlord-tenant matter. Doesn’t seem overly complex and as I said not much at stake here monetary wise. The other side is also pro se.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Landlord-tenant is probably the easiest type of civil law to break into, unless we're talking some complex commercial situation. I would go for it. Those were the first kinds of legitimate civil cases that I took on as a solo, and it helped build my confidence for other areas.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
JOThompson wrote:Landlord-tenant is probably the easiest type of civil law to break into, unless we're talking some complex commercial situation. I would go for it. Those were the first kinds of legitimate civil cases that I took on as a solo, and it helped build my confidence for other areas.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Seconding the response from above to find whatever the accepted Litigation Practice treatise is. In many states it's worth its weight in gold even if you're not trying to figure this out basically by yourself.
For landlord-tenant work, there are often free resources from Legal Aid or similar organizations (intended to help pro se tenants, but which can be very helpful to you). Check the website of your local legal aid orgs.
For landlord-tenant work, there are often free resources from Legal Aid or similar organizations (intended to help pro se tenants, but which can be very helpful to you). Check the website of your local legal aid orgs.
- AVBucks4239
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Your legal fee effectively represents you inheriting someone's problem. Implicit in that bargain is you knowing what you are doing. If you do not know what you are doing, you need to refer it to someone else or get co-counsel.
I am admittedly cringing that you don't even know how to draft a complaint, and yet you are considering taking on a civil matter. Yes, we all need to "pop our cherry" (as you so eloquently put it), but drafting a complaint is basic. To summarize:
Case caption (see your local rules)
First Several Paragraphs -- identify the parties
Second Set of Paragraphs -- identify why jurisdiction/venue is proper
Third Set -- identify the factual basis of your claims
Fourth Set -- Count I
Fifth Set -- Count II
Etc.
If you are looking for references, Thompson Reuters has nice practice manuals on each topic areas (link here is Ohio's version): https://store.legal.thomsonreuters.com/ ... /106153586
Look for your state. That practice manual will cite cases. Pull up those cases and you will see how the case was litigated. If there is e-filing you can even pull the pleadings and forms.
If you are looking to file an eviction, that will usually be a very state specific form.
But honestly, you should never, ever wing it. Are you sure your landlord-tenant matter is not complex? If you are representing the landlord, did your client comply with serving notice in accordance with statute? Is everything met? Has your landlord accepted any rent recently? Same questions if it is the tenant.
Landlord-tenant is relatively easy, but only if you know what you are doing.
I am admittedly cringing that you don't even know how to draft a complaint, and yet you are considering taking on a civil matter. Yes, we all need to "pop our cherry" (as you so eloquently put it), but drafting a complaint is basic. To summarize:
Case caption (see your local rules)
First Several Paragraphs -- identify the parties
Second Set of Paragraphs -- identify why jurisdiction/venue is proper
Third Set -- identify the factual basis of your claims
Fourth Set -- Count I
Fifth Set -- Count II
Etc.
If you are looking for references, Thompson Reuters has nice practice manuals on each topic areas (link here is Ohio's version): https://store.legal.thomsonreuters.com/ ... /106153586
Look for your state. That practice manual will cite cases. Pull up those cases and you will see how the case was litigated. If there is e-filing you can even pull the pleadings and forms.
If you are looking to file an eviction, that will usually be a very state specific form.
But honestly, you should never, ever wing it. Are you sure your landlord-tenant matter is not complex? If you are representing the landlord, did your client comply with serving notice in accordance with statute? Is everything met? Has your landlord accepted any rent recently? Same questions if it is the tenant.
Landlord-tenant is relatively easy, but only if you know what you are doing.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Honestly, take a local paralegal to lunch and ask. They'll know all the stuff that its difficult to figure out for a first-timer (what cover sheet you need, any weird forms, who's someone good to serve a complaint, where the hell to pick up the summons). The law you should be able to figure out. Presumably you're not charging too much on a case work 3 G's.
I wouldn't really worry about malpractice or anything. This is exactly the realm where lots of big firm attorney's do pro-bono on a subject they have no understanding of, and you're against someone with no lawyer in a forum designed to facilitate just that (usually some kind of minor justice of the peace court). This is doable if you try hard.
Good luck
I wouldn't really worry about malpractice or anything. This is exactly the realm where lots of big firm attorney's do pro-bono on a subject they have no understanding of, and you're against someone with no lawyer in a forum designed to facilitate just that (usually some kind of minor justice of the peace court). This is doable if you try hard.
Good luck
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Completely different circumstances.Truckasaurus wrote:
I wouldn't really worry about malpractice or anything. This is exactly the realm where lots of big firm attorney's do pro-bono on a subject they have no understanding of, and you're against someone with no lawyer in a forum designed to facilitate just that (usually some kind of minor justice of the peace court). This is doable if you try hard.
Good luck
The BigLaw attorneys assisting with this stuff are almost exclusively working with partner organizations that have subject matter expertise, supervised by like, people with years of experience. If you're a first year at Davis Polk who's doing a tenant-landlord dispute pro bono, it's not like you just sit down, take the facts from the tenant, and say "sure will do, I'll file this in a week" and then handle everything yourself lol.
OP is a solo w/no supervision who has no idea what s/he is doing. If s/he isn't worried about malpractice, s/he's a fool.
Were I in his/her position, I would never in a million years file this thing without having someone else review it, line by line.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
These are very different circumstances. I think a healthy dose of fear is valuable when venturing into new areas of law, especially as a new solo practitioner. That said, I think the sense of caution needs to be carefully balanced against the need to learn new types of law/cases.
I think an attorney with average abilities can research and triangulate their way into filing an effective, competent landlord-tenant complaint. In a perfect world, you'd have someone review every line, but it's not always possible. Even when I had a partner reviewing things for me, I couldn't get the type of supervision I needed on eviction cases. I just had to figure it out by looking at the statute, caselaw, and sample forms. If I was lucky, I had an opportunity to run major questions by the partner. It was nerve-wracking but it ended up being fine. There's always a certain knowledge-skill gap when starting out.
For civil litigation, if you're on your own, landlord tenant (not major commercial cases) is probably the safest and easiest way to get started.
I think an attorney with average abilities can research and triangulate their way into filing an effective, competent landlord-tenant complaint. In a perfect world, you'd have someone review every line, but it's not always possible. Even when I had a partner reviewing things for me, I couldn't get the type of supervision I needed on eviction cases. I just had to figure it out by looking at the statute, caselaw, and sample forms. If I was lucky, I had an opportunity to run major questions by the partner. It was nerve-wracking but it ended up being fine. There's always a certain knowledge-skill gap when starting out.
For civil litigation, if you're on your own, landlord tenant (not major commercial cases) is probably the safest and easiest way to get started.
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Re: How do I learn litigation
Sorry, to clarify---I don't mean that it's impossible to handle landlord-tenant as a solo. Obviously people do. There are plenty of 3Ls in landlord-tenant clinics who could run w/this case on their own.Anonymous User wrote:These are very different circumstances. I think a healthy dose of fear is valuable when venturing into new areas of law, especially as a new solo practitioner. That said, I think the sense of caution needs to be carefully balanced against the need to learn new types of law/cases.
I think an attorney with average abilities can research and triangulate their way into filing an effective, competent landlord-tenant complaint. In a perfect world, you'd have someone review every line, but it's not always possible. Even when I had a partner reviewing things for me, I couldn't get the type of supervision I needed on eviction cases. I just had to figure it out by looking at the statute, caselaw, and sample forms. If I was lucky, I had an opportunity to run major questions by the partner. It was nerve-wracking but it ended up being fine. There's always a certain knowledge-skill gap when starting out.
For civil litigation, if you're on your own, landlord tenant (not major commercial cases) is probably the safest and easiest way to get started.
I meant *OP*, who created a thread called "How do I learn litigation" and doesn't appear to know what a complaint is, should not be filing this without getting other eyes on it lol
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Re: How do I learn litigation
I suppose that's how it works in some places, but when I got my first family law pro bono case, it was pretty much here's vaguely related 2 hour CLE, godspeed and don't bother me with this shit because I don't know how it works either. It's honestly just not that hard (although admittedly I was pretty well past the "what does a complaint look like" point in my career at that point).LBJ's Hair wrote:Completely different circumstances.Truckasaurus wrote:
I wouldn't really worry about malpractice or anything. This is exactly the realm where lots of big firm attorney's do pro-bono on a subject they have no understanding of, and you're against someone with no lawyer in a forum designed to facilitate just that (usually some kind of minor justice of the peace court). This is doable if you try hard.
Good luck
The BigLaw attorneys assisting with this stuff are almost exclusively working with partner organizations that have subject matter expertise, supervised by like, people with years of experience. If you're a first year at Davis Polk who's doing a tenant-landlord dispute pro bono, it's not like you just sit down, take the facts from the tenant, and say "sure will do, I'll file this in a week" and then handle everything yourself lol.
OP is a solo w/no supervision who has no idea what s/he is doing. If s/he isn't worried about malpractice, s/he's a fool.
Were I in his/her position, I would never in a million years file this thing without having someone else review it, line by line.
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