Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid. Forum

[Matthies]

I'm a lawyer.

beat me to it

[Z3RO]

This might sound retarded, but how do you meet lawyers? I can't exactly take up a paralegal track, and I need the paying gig that I have. I can't very well call up all the big Chicago firms and ask if one of their partners wants to spin me some yarns about LS.

[SplitterPride]

here is the full post on JDU, about the Yale and Harvard comment, if you are curious:

"oldmanriver
Time: October 11, 2009 - 9:14 am

The funny thing about TLS is that you have 0 L's asking other 0 L's advice about legal careers and practice areas. None of them know squat about anything. There was a torts thread where these kids were saying "if Biglaw doesn't work out I'll just be an ambulance chaser and make 10 million a year" and so on, and another moron piped in "I wouldn't settle a case if I thought I could win at trial against the insurance company" and so on.

Sure lemmings, have fun in NY Civil schlepping your whiplash Allstate fender bender with soft tissue injuries to a jury full of Goldman Sachs bankers- you'll be sure to get ten million that way!

They don't even realize that 99% of tort cases are garbage auto accidents with 25 K policies and clients who are scam artist immigrants with BS "injuries."

Another moron thinks that PI firms pay entry level salaries in the 80s and that these jobs are plentiful.

There's also much noise about public interest and gov't jobs. Good luck with that. Laid off/deferred Biglaw kids are hogging all the public interest stuff and gov't jobs get 10,000 apps for every post. It's not an exaggeration to say that law is the most saturated industry on Earth.

In terms of comical ignorance and detachment from reality, the TLS site tops cult religions and fake moon landing/UFO websites. To enter ANY law school short of Yale or Harvard today is totally insane."

[ruleser]

You also post on JDU, or rather have posted until recently. Apart from yourself, I can't think of any other lawyers who post here.

Why don't you sum up for us the top 5 warnings/criticisms of the profession from JDU, so we can reasonably assess them.

[Helmholtz]

here is the full post on JDU, about the Yale and Harvard comment, if you are curious:

"oldmanriver
Time: October 11, 2009 - 9:14 am

The funny thing about TLS is that you have 0 L's asking other 0 L's advice about legal careers and practice areas. None of them know squat about anything. There was a torts thread where these kids were saying "if Biglaw doesn't work out I'll just be an ambulance chaser and make 10 million a year" and so on, and another moron piped in "I wouldn't settle a case if I thought I could win at trial against the insurance company" and so on.

Sure lemmings, have fun in NY Civil schlepping your whiplash Allstate fender bender with soft tissue injuries to a jury full of Goldman Sachs bankers- you'll be sure to get ten million that way!

They don't even realize that 99% of tort cases are garbage auto accidents with 25 K policies and clients who are scam artist immigrants with BS "injuries."

Another moron thinks that PI firms pay entry level salaries in the 80s and that these jobs are plentiful.

There's also much noise about public interest and gov't jobs. Good luck with that. Laid off/deferred Biglaw kids are hogging all the public interest stuff and gov't jobs get 10,000 apps for every post. It's not an exaggeration to say that law is the most saturated industry on Earth.

In terms of comical ignorance and detachment from reality, the TLS site tops cult religions and fake moon landing/UFO websites. To enter ANY law school short of Yale or Harvard today is totally insane."

[ruleser]

here is the full post on JDU, about the Yale and Harvard comment, if you are curious:

"oldmanriver
Time: October 11, 2009 - 9:14 am

The funny thing about TLS is that you have 0 L's asking other 0 L's advice about legal careers and practice areas. None of them know squat about anything. There was a torts thread where these kids were saying "if Biglaw doesn't work out I'll just be an ambulance chaser and make 10 million a year" and so on, and another moron piped in "I wouldn't settle a case if I thought I could win at trial against the insurance company" and so on.

Sure lemmings, have fun in NY Civil schlepping your whiplash Allstate fender bender with soft tissue injuries to a jury full of Goldman Sachs bankers- you'll be sure to get ten million that way!

They don't even realize that 99% of tort cases are garbage auto accidents with 25 K policies and clients who are scam artist immigrants with BS "injuries."

Another moron thinks that PI firms pay entry level salaries in the 80s and that these jobs are plentiful.

There's also much noise about public interest and gov't jobs. Good luck with that. Laid off/deferred Biglaw kids are hogging all the public interest stuff and gov't jobs get 10,000 apps for every post. It's not an exaggeration to say that law is the most saturated industry on Earth.

In terms of comical ignorance and detachment from reality, the TLS site tops cult religions and fake moon landing/UFO websites. To enter ANY law school short of Yale or Harvard today is totally insane."

I don't read JDU, but it does seem a lot of it is about NY, no? I can't imagine being a TTT in that market - it's an oversaturated place to begin with, and an expensive-as-hell, and can be miserable if you're poor type city. I can't picture not being miserable graudating even mid-class from Hoftra or Brooklyn and having debt and then being smack in the middle of brooklyn or queens trying to get by, leeching off the few scraps not taken up by the countless firms that have been in the city for centuries...

Are other markets bitched about as much on there?

[Matthies]

This might sound retarded, but how do you meet lawyers? I can't exactly take up a paralegal track, and I need the paying gig that I have. I can't very well call up all the big Chicago firms and ask if one of their partners wants to spin me some yarns about LS.

Best way is once you get in school join the local bar association as a student. Go to events, CLEs, meetings. Our bar has a young lawyers division that has a weekly happy hour and once a month get together. Students are welcome, and at least here its free. Join an Inn of the Court in your city if they have one, its great mentoring for $50 year and you will be assigned a group of lawyers and judges as mentors when you join.

Before LS look up alumni from your UG that are lawyers and offer to take them out for lunch or breakfast and get their advice. Most lawyers love talking to law students. It may take a few e-mails before you get a hit but worst they can say is no, and you only need one yes and for that yes to introduce you to other people in the legal community.

Networking takes a bit of work at first but it pays off handsomely in the end if you keep up with it. But like with anything else you get back what you put in, if you’re not willing to put anything in then don’t be surprised if you don’t get anything back.

[TTTTT]

I think it was after a search about W&M that I decided to stop reading jdunderground.....

Author: cincinnatus
Do any current students know whether spouses can purchase gym memberships? We're down to "quality of life" issues on making a decision.If anyone can help, thanks in advance!

Author: D:
Tell the cunt to get a job instead of wasting time until you get home and you can fill her with your man juice.

Author: rapscallion (megaPWN3ER at LARGE)
Leave the wife at home. Last thing you need is some 3L fucking her in the showers at the gymn while you're off slaving away on the books, and paying her rent with your loans. Then after she's fucked up your 1L year for you, she runs off with the 3L cock she's been banging for the year.. all because you were too cheap to send her to the Gold's gym in downtown historic Williamsburg.

Author: D:
Ok after she comes home, push on her stomach and see if semen comes out her pussy.

I wonder why these brilliant people can't get jobs.....

[Helmholtz]

I don't read JDU, but it does seem a lot of it is about NY, no? I can't imagine being a TTT in that market - it's an oversaturated place to begin with, and an expensive-as-hell, and can be miserable if you're poor type city. I can't picture not being miserable graudating even mid-class from Hoftra or Brooklyn and having debt and then being smack in the middle of brooklyn or queens trying to get by, leeching off the few scraps not taken up by the countless firms that have been in the city for centuries...

Are other markets bitched about as much on there?

From what I've seen, yes, most of the complainers are from people who arrived at the genius idea of attending BLS or 'Dozo for close to full ticket. I know a couple people working in the legal field in NYC and they really portray is it as a biglaw or die environment. If you live in Ohio, for example, you see more options ranging from firms with only a few dozen lawyers to firms with only a few, which usually is what you're going to be looking at if you don't make it into a biglaw firm in Cleveland or Columbus (and I've been told by people working in biglaw that they'll probably be heading to a smaller firm once they put in their time and pay off their school loans). I know a lawyer with a Cornell JD/MBA and he went straight to a small law firm in a small town with low COL after a few years of biglaw. Small law and midlaw is much more prolific outside of the Big Apple, relatively speaking, and these are often the opportunities that the wide majority of T3/T4 grads end up doing. I'm working at a small law firm now and the majority of lawyers graduated from local T4 schools. They're all doing pretty well, driving nice cars, living in decent houses, etc.

But on the other hand, I know a guy with a JD from a relatively respectable T3 in a relatively unsaturated market who went into real estate after not finding a decent legal job. The market went bust and he's now taking paralegal classes part-time at a local university trying to refresh himself and re-enter the legal field. So take it all for what it's worth.

[Helmholtz]

This might sound retarded, but how do you meet lawyers? I can't exactly take up a paralegal track, and I need the paying gig that I have. I can't very well call up all the big Chicago firms and ask if one of their partners wants to spin me some yarns about LS.

Best way is once you get in school join the local bar association as a student. Go to events, CLEs, meetings. Our bar has a young lawyers division that has a weekly happy hour and once a month get together. Students are welcome, and at least here its free. Join an Inn of the Court in your city if they have one, its great mentoring for $50 year and you will be assigned a group of lawyers and judges as mentors when you join.

Before LS look up alumni from your UG that are lawyers and offer to take them out for lunch or breakfast and get their advice. Most lawyers love talking to law students. It may take a few e-mails before you get a hit but worst they can say is no, and you only need one yes and for that yes to introduce you to other people in the legal community.

Networking takes a bit of work at first but it pays off handsomely in the end if you keep up with it. But like with anything else you get back what you put in, if you’re not willing to put anything in then don’t be surprised if you don’t get anything back.

+1 on looking up alumni

I've even heard of potential LS students looking up recent grads from schools they're looking at and set up a chat over lunch with them. You can learn so much from people who've already been through the entire LS/career search process.

If you feel uncomfortable cold e-mailing people, get over it.

[Z3RO]

This might sound retarded, but how do you meet lawyers? I can't exactly take up a paralegal track, and I need the paying gig that I have. I can't very well call up all the big Chicago firms and ask if one of their partners wants to spin me some yarns about LS.

Best way is once you get in school join the local bar association as a student. Go to events, CLEs, meetings. Our bar has a young lawyers division that has a weekly happy hour and once a month get together. Students are welcome, and at least here its free. Join an Inn of the Court in your city if they have one, its great mentoring for $50 year and you will be assigned a group of lawyers and judges as mentors when you join.

Before LS look up alumni from your UG that are lawyers and offer to take them out for lunch or breakfast and get their advice. Most lawyers love talking to law students. It may take a few e-mails before you get a hit but worst they can say is no, and you only need one yes and for that yes to introduce you to other people in the legal community.

Networking takes a bit of work at first but it pays off handsomely in the end if you keep up with it. But like with anything else you get back what you put in, if you’re not willing to put anything in then don’t be surprised if you don’t get anything back.

Thanks for the advice!

I was planning on doing a ton of networking once I got into LS, but I feel like I'm outside the glass box at the moment.

[D. H2Oman]

If you feel uncomfortable cold e-mailing people, get over it.

Most useful advice of the entire thread.

[CEEJ22]

This makes sense. I see law school as a grand adventure, but I also love it for what it is substantively; pin-citing, and memos at 4:00 am. I don't know what's going to happen next, and I expect to make in the neighborhood of $40k when I get out of here (public interest FTW), but really, I knew that when I walked in.

Look, let me tell everyone from experience - it is who you are and specifically how good you work that determines your career. I graduated from a basic state school with a theater degree, and just started with some temp admin assist job that I never intended to become anything, in a field I'd never even heard of, non-profit foundation work. But I got there, I was motivated, hard working, smart, they offered me a full-time gig. I was able to help improve things, learned quickly, 1 1/2 years later I had a higher level. Another year or so, I was a Director at a non-profit. Long story short, I am now exec level for a large service area for a large, multi-state non-profit, earning very good money, being offered other ops even as the economy is bad - my work just laid off a bunch of people, yet they came to me and said they hope I won't leave for another op. You make your career. As someone who has managed/hired people for years, truly good employees are hard to find. Good attitudes, good work ethic, real problem solving skills, adaptability, and that special something. A lot of what you hear in law aside from the TTT'ers are T14ers, or T1ers who just aren't good employees - money/grades can only get you so much in life. I worked at my current job alongside a T20 grad - she was the worst employee I'd ever known. Spent most of her time gossiping and complaining and couldn't take a useful, productive step to save her life, and, T20 JD and all, she was about to be laid off (managed to run off to somewhere else.) So take that lesson - me and my theatre degree from a basic state school is working exec level and being asked strongly to stay, while T20 JD was not only not moving ahead, but about being shown the door. The degree/education might just open a door - you make your career - whether that means you make it good or miserable.

As a note, that crappy T20er had a personality just like those JDUers. People with attitudes like that don't succeed - its self-fulfilling.

+1 mill

I've been weighing in on my decision to pursue a JD since last Feb and won't actually make my decision until tuition is due. I want to be 100% sure my decision is based on my desire to practice law. I'm fully aware that in my market I could make anywhere from $40k to $140k. I won't start school unless I'm ready to accept that $40k job with $100+k in student loans. There are 3 (1 state, 2 private) local schools that I could attend without moving. At best the scholarships at the private schools would reduce the cost to the state school. Currently I'm leaning towards state school or bust since it will offer me the best career opportunities. That and I've always wanted to be a Husky.

[D. H2Oman]

This makes sense. I see law school as a grand adventure, but I also love it for what it is substantively; pin-citing, and memos at 4:00 am. I don't know what's going to happen next, and I expect to make in the neighborhood of $40k when I get out of here (public interest FTW), but really, I knew that when I walked in.

Look, let me tell everyone from experience - it is who you are and specifically how good you work that determines your career. I graduated from a basic state school with a theater degree, and just started with some temp admin assist job that I never intended to become anything, in a field I'd never even heard of, non-profit foundation work. But I got there, I was motivated, hard working, smart, they offered me a full-time gig. I was able to help improve things, learned quickly, 1 1/2 years later I had a higher level. Another year or so, I was a Director at a non-profit. Long story short, I am now exec level for a large service area for a large, multi-state non-profit, earning very good money, being offered other ops even as the economy is bad - my work just laid off a bunch of people, yet they came to me and said they hope I won't leave for another op. You make your career. As someone who has managed/hired people for years, truly good employees are hard to find. Good attitudes, good work ethic, real problem solving skills, adaptability, and that special something. A lot of what you hear in law aside from the TTT'ers are T14ers, or T1ers who just aren't good employees - money/grades can only get you so much in life. I worked at my current job alongside a T20 grad - she was the worst employee I'd ever known. Spent most of her time gossiping and complaining and couldn't take a useful, productive step to save her life, and, T20 JD and all, she was about to be laid off (managed to run off to somewhere else.) So take that lesson - me and my theatre degree from a basic state school is working exec level and being asked strongly to stay, while T20 JD was not only not moving ahead, but about being shown the door. The degree/education might just open a door - you make your career - whether that means you make it good or miserable.

As a note, that crappy T20er had a personality just like those JDUers. People with attitudes like that don't succeed - its self-fulfilling.

+1 mill

I've been weighing in on my decision to pursue a JD since last Feb and won't actually make my decision until tuition is due. I want to be 100% sure my decision is based on my desire to practice law. I'm fully aware that in my market I could make anywhere from $40k to $140k. I won't start school unless I'm ready to accept that $40k job with $100+k in student loans. There are 3 (1 state, 2 private) local schools that I could attend without moving. At best the scholarships at the private schools would reduce the cost to the state school. Currently I'm leaning towards state school or bust since it will offer me the best career opportunities. That and I've always wanted to be a Husky.

It's pretty clear you are talking about Washington, but it could technically also be Conneticut.

[Matthies]

This might sound retarded, but how do you meet lawyers? I can't exactly take up a paralegal track, and I need the paying gig that I have. I can't very well call up all the big Chicago firms and ask if one of their partners wants to spin me some yarns about LS.

Best way is once you get in school join the local bar association as a student. Go to events, CLEs, meetings. Our bar has a young lawyers division that has a weekly happy hour and once a month get together. Students are welcome, and at least here its free. Join an Inn of the Court in your city if they have one, its great mentoring for $50 year and you will be assigned a group of lawyers and judges as mentors when you join.

Before LS look up alumni from your UG that are lawyers and offer to take them out for lunch or breakfast and get their advice. Most lawyers love talking to law students. It may take a few e-mails before you get a hit but worst they can say is no, and you only need one yes and for that yes to introduce you to other people in the legal community.

Networking takes a bit of work at first but it pays off handsomely in the end if you keep up with it. But like with anything else you get back what you put in, if you’re not willing to put anything in then don’t be surprised if you don’t get anything back.

Thanks for the advice!

I was planning on doing a ton of networking once I got into LS, but I feel like I'm outside the glass box at the moment.

Its never too early to start, and the experince you get now from trying will make it easier to strike up conversations with lawyers once you get to law school.

[ggocat]

I've been surfing through JD underground, and I've come across some very interesting topics. As most of you know, these people absolutely despise the profession because of the current position they're in - Many went to tier 3s and have no job but plenty of debt.

I came across a poster today that said something that I thought I would ask about on TLS. He said that if you can't get into a T30 (at LEAST) and you definitely want to go to law school, then it is a good idea to take a full ride at a TTT or even a TTTT rather than paying for higher tuition at a lower ranked T1/T2.

What do all of you think about this?

It's good advice. This article provides a better (and more detailed) explanation of the decision: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Although the ordering of top NLJ 250 feeder schools is strongly correlated with U.S. News rankings, movement within the top of the hierarchy provides a much larger employment payoff than an equivalent change does for a school ranked in the middle or the bottom.

For many prospective lawyers, the best strategy may be a careful evaluation of the regional job market in the area of the country where they want to work. If they are not competitive for admission into a national law school — or are sure they are not interested in corporate law — they can use their entering credentials to negotiate for a substantial tuition discount. By focusing on price rather than rankings, they will have the financial freedom to pursue jobs that will build valuable professional skills and mentoring relationships, or leave the law altogether, without debt, to pursue other life ambitions. Further, if prospective law students still want a shot at large corporate law practice, their best bet may be to focus on regional schools in major legal markets that will provide them with substantial scholarships. Virtually all large firms routinely interview at regional law schools in close proximity to major branch offices while ignoring higher ranked schools farther away.

Within regional markets, many schools will have similar outcome profiles. The question to ask is whether marginally better employment outcomes — for example, 12% large-firm employment versus 6% — is worth the additional law school debt.

[musiclaw23]

Actually, the poster from JD Underground probably isn't far off. From examining schools' reputations and their placement records, I put the ceiling at about T40, rather than T30. I'm of the opinion that it's not worth to go to law school outside the T40 (give or take) without some scholarship unless being an attorney is your sole desire in life.

Then again, if that sole desire is to be a biglaw attorney, and you can't crack T40, you might as well quit while you're (financially) ahead.

You really have to consider the future though. The JD could prove to be a very very valuable degree in a world where more and more people have BAs or BSs. I'm of the opinion that most of the people like the posters on JD underground actually are losers. Not because they are unable to hack it in the legal market, but because seeing that they have a distaste for law firms, they failed to figure out how they can otherwise utilize or market themselves.

My father does have any degree and I've never heard him wine like they do. The fact is he is capable of being successful and he is because he worked his ass off and they could be as well. <b>They probably all went to law school thinking a JD is a guaranteed free ticket to a good job</b> no matter how lazy/stupid they are. Woops.

Although I probably wouldn't have been quite so harsh, TITCR.

[MTal]

Actually, the poster from JD Underground probably isn't far off. From examining schools' reputations and their placement records, I put the ceiling at about T40, rather than T30. I'm of the opinion that it's not worth to go to law school outside the T40 (give or take) without some scholarship unless being an attorney is your sole desire in life.

Then again, if that sole desire is to be a biglaw attorney, and you can't crack T40, you might as well quit while you're (financially) ahead.

You really have to consider the future though. The JD could prove to be a very very valuable degree in a world where more and more people have BAs or BSs. I'm of the opinion that most of the people like the posters on JD underground actually are losers. Not because they are unable to hack it in the legal market, but because seeing that they have a distaste for law firms, they failed to figure out how they can otherwise utilize or market themselves.

My father does have any degree and I've never heard him wine like they do. The fact is he is capable of being successful and he is because he worked his ass off and they could be as well. <b>They probably all went to law school thinking a JD is a guaranteed free ticket to a good job</b> no matter how lazy/stupid they are. Woops.

Although I probably wouldn't have been quite so harsh, TITCR.

I can't wait until the reality of life smacks you two idiots in the face. When you are young, you perceive yourself as indestructable...nothing bad can happen as long as you "work hard" (as if 99 % of the people in law school don't work hard). I guess some things you just have to experience before you can understand them.

[Z3RO]

Actually, the poster from JD Underground probably isn't far off. From examining schools' reputations and their placement records, I put the ceiling at about T40, rather than T30. I'm of the opinion that it's not worth to go to law school outside the T40 (give or take) without some scholarship unless being an attorney is your sole desire in life.

Then again, if that sole desire is to be a biglaw attorney, and you can't crack T40, you might as well quit while you're (financially) ahead.

You really have to consider the future though. The JD could prove to be a very very valuable degree in a world where more and more people have BAs or BSs. I'm of the opinion that most of the people like the posters on JD underground actually are losers. Not because they are unable to hack it in the legal market, but because seeing that they have a distaste for law firms, they failed to figure out how they can otherwise utilize or market themselves.

My father does have any degree and I've never heard him wine like they do. The fact is he is capable of being successful and he is because he worked his ass off and they could be as well. <b>They probably all went to law school thinking a JD is a guaranteed free ticket to a good job</b> no matter how lazy/stupid they are. Woops.

Although I probably wouldn't have been quite so harsh, TITCR.

I can't wait until the reality of life smacks you two idiots in the face. When you are young, you perceive yourself as indestructable...nothing bad can happen as long as you "work hard" (as if 99 % of the people in law school don't work hard). I guess some things you just have to experience before you can understand them.

I'm glad that you help bring a dose of reality to TLS, but didn't you drop out of law school?

What reality are you especially privy to, other than that you couldn't hack it in LS? Why do you keep haunting this board just to troll 0L's?

[Kohinoor]

I'm glad that you help bring a dose of reality to TLS, but didn't you drop out of law school?

What reality are you especially privy to, other than that you couldn't hack it in LS? Why do you keep haunting this board just to troll 0L's?

broken_image

[MTal]

I would love to respond to this in full right now, however, I am currently at work being payed to study for my series 7 and 63 licenses. I will get back to you at some later time.

[06072010]

^^that describes about 80 % of law school graduates today, and that's IF they can find a legal job at all.

80%? Source?

[MTal]

^^that describes about 80 % of law school graduates today, and that's IF they can find a legal job at all.

80%? Source?

Only a small percentage get biglaw, bi-modal salary distribution, blah blah blah, I thought you knew this already.

[Kohinoor]

^^that describes about 80 % of law school graduates today, and that's IF they can find a legal job at all.

80%? Source?

Only a small percentage get biglaw, bi-modal salary distribution, blah blah blah, I thought you knew this already.

Please explain how that leads to the assumption that 80% of law students don't understand sunk costs and don't know what they're getting into.

[TruckerD]

I would love to respond to this in full right now, however, I am currently at work being payed to study for my series 7 and 63 licenses. I will get back to you at some later time.

I don't post much, but I do read a lot here, and it seems to me that someone who is supposedly "studying" on company time is definitely posting a lot of BS instead of answering a legitimate question someone asks you directly.

PS...it's "paid", not payed