More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

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Darth Topher
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More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby Darth Topher » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:48 pm

I saw this on the JD underground site and found it sad. I wonder what you all think of this.

http://jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=5710


Author: Top Tier Jobless
Subject: Hate Life
Time: October 25, 2007 - 4:11 pm

Hi there,

I went to a national top 20 undergrad, top 30 law school, graduated from underground with mostly A’s, graduated from law school with mostly B's and can't find a job for the life of me. The jobs that are offered pay about 16 dollars an hour. During law school, I had a job that paid me 16 dollars, wherein I had to use a McDonald's type of clock-in card, and wherein they used the Lexis-Nexis password the school had provided me. In all, that law firm was treating me like a slave, but it was the only job I could get.

A lot of people say that law degrees open door, but few tell you they actually close them. I have tried to work outside of the "legal" world, but few businesses hire me because they feel that I am overqualified or don't know what I want since I am transitioning. Often times, I leave my law degree out of my resume, but employers seem suspicious as to what I have been doing for the past three years on "summer legal jobs."

Even within the legal profession, if I apply to a paralegal position to get say $20 an hour, the firms think I am overqualified and refuse to hire me out of fear that I will leave soon.

I am 250k in debt, don't have a place of my own, can't pay credit cards, living out of my boyfriend, my law school and undergrad are asking me for "alumni donations" and I just want to shoot them. Before law school, I made about 60k-100k with very little debt, after law school I am unemployed, been unemployed for most of law school, owe more than 200k in debt, and can't even get a job outside of the legal profession probably even McDonald's will not hire me because I am overqualified by virtue of this useless law degree.

Everyone asks me whether I have a job and everyone seems clueless as to why I do not. My friends that have the same credentials as me, however, do not ask me that question as they are in a similar position, loaded with debt, living with parents and awaiting bar results.

Law schools give a median salary that is misleading because only the top ten percent of the law schools make about 160-170k, but the bottom of those law schools can't even get a job for $20hr with benefits. They also don't list where every single individual is working or not, so law schools report only those that report to them..and obviously if you make 170k you are more willing to report than if you are say making $10 per hour.

Law schools should have a warning sign on the application, a consent form if you will disclosing this right before they take your $75 dollar fee. It is unconsionable for them to simply fail to disclose this and humiliate you for three years in law school and god knows how much longer after you graduate. The problem is that most of the administrations are in denial because people not attending their institutions simply means less money for them.

The other problem that I have with the profession in general and what REALLY angers me is that those that didn't get straight A's in a top school can't get jobs because they got B's, however, those that are in barely accredited law schools or mediocre law schools that got straight A's do in fact end up getting the 160k starting salaries. In other words, firms take the top 10% of any school without really thinking about the fact that grades in law school are all based on the curve (i.e. competitors). It is obvious, that if I attended a school full of monkeys I would get straight A's too... not to say those people are monkeys but used primarily to illustrate the point, that some of us are getting hurt for attending more prestigious law schools competing with some of the most intelligent minds out there but earning B's and some A's. I find this system is very distorted to say the least.

To illustrate this very point, I went to a top 20 undergrad with superb grades, went to top 30 law school, yet I'm unemployed because I got about a 3.0 average. On the other hand, there is this girl making 160k that went to a state college for undergrad (not even close to top 200 in the country, not even ranked) and went to a top 60 law school, but because she was top ten percent at that law school she earns 160k and had summer jobs paying 2k a week whereas I had ZERO. Sounds fair? Sounds like a smart plan on the part of the law firms? Well a career advisor at my school claims that this is so because law firms started marketing themselves as recruiting top talent at law schools and since clients do not really know the differences among law schools they think that a degree from one mediocre law school is the same as that of another good law school because they are not in the field to know any better. Thus, firms to fit into the marketing scheme hire top ten percent from any law school including "monkey-type" law schools and those of us that have worked hard for our degrees but not quite made the stupid A consistently are being chased by sallie mae.

The other big problem is that most jobs are obtained after first year of law school, thus, those that were lucky enough to get jobs the first year secure those positions even if their grades become subpar in the following years. For those of us with a different learning curve, we are screwd because by the time we have gotten down the system, the best positions have been filled. If you look it from a business perspective, this is faulty economics because they are hired based on one year's of work, yet those that have 3 years at a law school are not hired simply because there are no openings. Why do law firms hire permanently right after the first year, why aren’t these individuals put on probation until they graduate so that everyone is looked at as a whole instead basing someone’s life on two semesters? I know some individuals that have are unemployed now that have better grades than those that are at these big law firms, but obviously it doesn't really matter because what matters is what you did for two semesters more than what you did for 6 semesters.

Those that lucked out first year, then have big firm jobs in their resumes and can advance to other big firms, but not so much for the 3L's or graduates that didn’t have superb grades the first two semesters.

I currently await for my bar results, unemployed and broke, hoping that I will pass the bar, not for the money I will be making because obviously there isn’t much out there for me, but rather so that people don't think I am stupid. An individual not familiar with the legal world might say "well, you don't have to tell people you didn't pass" the truth is that the profession likes to humiliate us, the passing list is public knowledge and everyone knows that if your name is not in the list you didn't pass. How is that for privacy and humiliation?

I hate myself for choosing to go to law school, it has been the most humiliating experience of my life, the saddest time of my life, and the most regretful one. I urge everyone to read extensively about the negative consequences of law school otherwise they might just end up miserable, disappointed, humiliated and broke.

I wish to thank the Wall Street Journal to bringing forward the plight of the Loyola 2L (second tier law school), but the Journal should also discuss the plight of those at the bottom of the first tier law school, and the other faults I highlighted above because they illustrate the bigger problem facing the legal profession.

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:03 pm

Code: Select all

I hate myself for choosing to go to law school, it has been the most humiliating experience of my life, the saddest time of my life, and the most regretful one. I urge everyone to read extensively about the negative consequences of law school otherwise they might just end up miserable, disappointed, humiliated and broke.


That is an incredibly sad comment. The whole rant can pretty much be condensed into "Don't get a 3.0 in law school". If that is at or below the median at her school, it explains pretty handily why she has had difficulty finding a worth while position. Its easier said than done of course but its not like she was hoodwinked into attending a TTT. By her own admission, she didn't do very well. Do well, everyone!

Those that lucked out first year, then have big firm jobs in their resumes and can advance to other big firms, but not so much for the 3L's or graduates that didn’t have superb grades the first two semesters.


I find this kind of comment annoying. Of course, the top 10 percent of the class has some measure of luck that aids them in getting excellent grades but their hard work cannot be underestimated. It sounds like she's trivializing their success. Not everyone in the top 50% just got lucky.

nellie06
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby nellie06 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:09 pm

This isn't a surprise. Everyone knows that a b average can sink you unless you're at a t-14...that person should have understood that going in.

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:22 pm

Do well, everyone!


simply not possible

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 pm

Do as well as you can everyone! Possible? :P

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:24 pm

maybe

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:26 pm

How about "try not to suck too hard"? :twisted:

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:26 pm

approved

Darth Topher
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby Darth Topher » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:26 pm

I'm sorry for posting this. I feel like a Jackass. :( At least those of us that frequent this website are for the most part aware of scenarios like these.

Try hard, be the best you can be everyone! :D

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:28 pm

Topher, did you see how pithy and I just engaged in a sort of "Duel of the Iron Mic"?

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:32 pm

Darth Topher wrote:I'm sorry for posting this. I feel like a Jackass. :( At least those of us that frequent this website are for the most part aware of scenarios like these.

Try hard, be the best you can be everyone! :D


No need for apologies. I've seen this post before but I spend a good amount of time looking for horror stories so I can convince myself I have all the necessary info before attending law school. I have tried to find negative stuff about GW but its harder than one would think. If you can find me an angry post from a GW kid, I'd appreciate it. I've gone so far as to google "gw law sucks" and "gw law toilet".

Reading about the negatives is not as much fun as reading about Cravath's salary bonus but it is very necessary. This post could prove helpful for people who have not seen it before.

AVSexton
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby AVSexton » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:33 pm

This post does have a lot of relevant points, though.

At every law school, 49% of the students are going to be below the median. 60% of the students are going to be in a range where finding employment can be tricky, even in smaller markets.

At many, many law schools, that is going to catch a lot of legitimatly intelligent, qualified people. Stories like this, that do seem to be the plights of genuinly intelligent individuals, make me think that if I don't have a 3.3 (Madison approximates class rank by GPA tables, they don't actually release class ranks, but that is ~top third of class) by the end of 1L, I should just drop out:/
Last edited by AVSexton on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Darth Topher
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby Darth Topher » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:34 pm

Yes I saw neskerdoo...you're quite talented in the art of "shadowboxin."

Neskerdoo is "un-choppable." He'll come slicing at you with his "liquid sword."

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:37 pm

and darth topher deserves credit for his "Investigative Reports," which help reveal the realities of this "Cold World."

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:37 pm

AVSexton wrote:This post does have a lot of relevant points, though.

At every law school, 49% of the students are going to be below the median. 60% of the students are going to be in a range where finding employment can be tricky, even in smaller markets.

At many, many law schools, that is going to catch a lot of legitimatly intelligent, qualified people. Stories like this, that do seem to be the plights of genuinly intelligent individuals, make me think that if I don't have a 3.3 (Madison approximates class rank by GPA tables, they don't actually release class ranks, but that is ~top third of class) by the end of 1L, I should just drop out:/


Really, top third? I would think Wisconsin has a very insular market, not a lot of T-14 grads flooding it. Wouldn't that make Madison top dog in the whole state? I feel like the size and demographics of the market might make it a little easier on everyone. Then again, it is a small market.

JusAbstinendi
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby JusAbstinendi » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:40 pm

Law schools should have a warning sign on the application, a consent form if you will disclosing this right before they take your $75 dollar fee. It is unconsionable for them to simply fail to disclose this and humiliate you for three years in law school and god knows how much longer after you graduate. The problem is that most of the administrations are in denial because people not attending their institutions simply means less money for them.


Maybe the problem is that this person failed to research both the legal market (it's saturated) and the data published by law schools (it's misleading but not atypical of those selling a product). This person seems bitter that s/he failed to standout and now wants to blame the system, or fate, or anything--anything outside of personal accountability.

People need to consider with wisdom their acceptances, the market, and other economic realities before taking the plunge. The original post can pretty much be summarized into "I made a mistake."
Last edited by JusAbstinendi on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bryguy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby bryguy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:41 pm

wow ... really sad ... but i find it weird that she was not able to get a decent job at a firm in the market her law school catered to ... any thoughts?

btw ... pithy ... if you think the cravath bonus is exciting ... have you read about the wachtel bonus for the past 2 years?

hahaha ... anyways i do agree that this post could prove helpful for people who have not seen it before.

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:42 pm

she should totally out her school, by the way

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:43 pm

I got about a 3.0 average.


I just wanted to highlight that "about" a 3.0 could mean a 3.1 but it could also mean a 2.9. A 2.9 would explain a lot of the difficulty she faces.

Darth Topher
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby Darth Topher » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:44 pm

It's great that there is a "Swordsman" like Neskerdoo "Living In The World Today." The type of warrior who creeps out of his "4th chamber" to advise young warriors on the "B.I.B.L.E" (Basic Instructions Before Law Education), the dangers of "Labels" certain schools have attatched to them, and about the "Killah Hills" of the law profession.

He's a warrior who definately has no problem saying:

"I gotcha Back"

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:45 pm

bryguy wrote:wow ... really sad ... but i find it weird that she was not able to get a decent job at a firm in the market her law school catered to ... any thoughts?

btw ... pithy ... if you think the cravath bonus is exciting ... have you read about the wachtel bonus for the past 2 years?

hahaha ... anyways i do agree that this post could prove helpful for people who have not seen it before.


Ah, I totally meant Wachtell. That's the $160,000 bonus right? In exchange for your soul?

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neskerdoo
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby neskerdoo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:45 pm

that just about covers it, huh... perhaps an ODB avatar next?

Darth Topher
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby Darth Topher » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:47 pm

I considered it.

prettypithy
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby prettypithy » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:47 pm

neskerdoo wrote:that just about covers it, huh... perhaps an ODB avatar next?


Seconded! Without a moment's hesitation... :P

tamtam
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Re: More sad stories from our friends at JD underground

Postby tamtam » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:48 pm

It's quite sad reading story like that. However, I'm going into law school without really thinking about how much I'm going to make. I like law/jurisprudence, and law school is the path if I like the legal field. So, I guess another way to look at is--GO TO LAW SCHOOL IF YOU EITHER LIKE SCHOOL, LAW, LEGAL FIELD, become a lawyer, or do well.




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