Help me understand LST Forum

[furrrman]

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=other

(I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere.)

Specifically I'm interested in the job score on LST. How much stock should I put in that number? I find it strange that Yale is only at 82%. Also, for T14 schools like Gtown and NU, are really only 75% of grads getting lawyer jobs?

[swampman]

Take that number with a grain of salt. That is the percent of graduates working full-time, legal jobs. One of the nice things about Harvard/Yale is they open a lot of doors outside the legal profession, and many students go that route. Also look closely at the "unemployed" figure (click on it). At Yale there are almost 5% "unemployed," some because they are pursuing graduate degrees, deferred their job offer, or just don't want to work. Exactly 0% are unemployed and looking for work.

At lower ranked schools the LST employment number is much more reflective of the school's actual strength, but still look closely to see whether the school fits your goals.

[Cicero76]

The number gets more and more accurate once you're outside the T6. Yale's is especially misleading, because YLS students tend to voluntarily choose jobs other than typical legal jobs, and because Yale provides mulityear, competitive fellowships for public interest students. Unlike the $15/hour jobs that some schools use to pad their job numbers, these are $50-60k/ year with full benefits and usually lead to a fulltime position after.

Those are all included in the 18% missing from the Yale job stats.

[furrrman]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

[cron1834]

NU's numbers suffer b/c a lot of folks with business experience go back into their industry, without technically being JD-required. NU is a fine school.

[Crowing]

Note that those are only the statistics for one year. NU had a particularly bad year; there will be some variation from class to class.

[LRGhost]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

So I'm not one to really post in favor of a school, but I'd say there is minimal difference to a slight edge for NU. It's hard to know what Public Service jobs really are. They can be really crappy jobs that aren't legally related or they can be prestigious federal positions. Aside from that, a lot of the 'Business' jobs in NU apparently account for people who go back into consulting or banking or whatever. I don't know if JD/MBAs are included in the stats. I also don't know anyone, outside of one person, who is actually aiming for something outside of law. That said, it seems to be common wisdom that people do legit stuff in the 'Business' category, so you could consider that a positive outcome. If you even take half of those people and put them in law jobs, it's about equal as far as employment goes. The last thing I'd say is that Chicago does actually have a 'boutique' market in the real sense that boutiques are desirable and not just a fancy adjective. A lot of these firms have less than 50 lawyers (maybe less than 25?) and if even five or six kids a year get them, that's an extra 3% or so that could have been in the Big Law pile.

[phillywc]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

It depends on you, as you guessed it might. Do you have good WE? Ties/desire to work in Chicago? If yes to both questions, NU is fine. If you don't have good WE, I feel like you stand out from other NU students who overwhelmingly do, and I'd take Cornell.

[iamgeorgebush]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

It's hard to know what Public Service jobs really are. They can be really crappy jobs that aren't legally related or they can be prestigious federal positions.

I think all the public service jobs on LST are legal jobs...i.e., they require bar passage. But I could be wrong.

[wiz]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

It depends on you, as you guessed it might. Do you have good WE? Ties/desire to work in Chicago? If yes to both questions, NU is fine. If you don't have good WE, I feel like you stand out from other NU students who overwhelmingly do, and I'd take Cornell.

NU and Cornell are objectively peer schools. If you want to work in Chicago, then go to NU. If you just want any biglaw, then go to the school that offers you more money or to the place you would rather spend the next three years after factoring in COA.

There's no data to suggest that a top of the class, median, or below-median Northwestern student performs worse than their Cornell counterpart, and this whole "standing out in a negative way because limited WE" claim seems pretty dubious.

[TheodoreKGB]

.

[LRGhost]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

It depends on you, as you guessed it might. Do you have good WE? Ties/desire to work in Chicago? If yes to both questions, NU is fine. If you don't have good WE, I feel like you stand out from other NU students who overwhelmingly do, and I'd take Cornell.

NU and Cornell are objectively peer schools. If you want to work in Chicago, then go to NU. If you just want any biglaw, then go to the school that offers you more money or to the place you would rather spend the next three years after factoring in COA.

There's no data to suggest that a top of the class, median, or below-median Northwestern student performs worse than their Cornell counterpart, and this whole "standing out in a negative way because limited WE" claim seems pretty dubious.

Nobody is talking about grades. What people are saying is that there are probably (we obviously can't know) a disproportionate number of people at NU who go to LS with work experience in 'business' that is actually business and not just retail. So if they choose to go back to 'business' after law school, that category may actually mean legitimate jobs.

It could also mean nothing.

[wiz]

Thanks for the responses, cleared some of that up.

And just for kicks, how about a hypothetical. Setting aside everything except for job outcomes, is Cornell clearly a better choice than Northwestern? They both have fairly similar stats, but Cornell has an edge in biglaw and PI, and is 10% higher in overall employment.

And yes, I realize many other factors need to be considered here, and the answer to this is probably not a simple yes and no, but I just feel a simple discussion of the issue might elucidate some things for me (for anyone willing/knowledgeable enough to do so). Thanks.

It depends on you, as you guessed it might. Do you have good WE? Ties/desire to work in Chicago? If yes to both questions, NU is fine. If you don't have good WE, I feel like you stand out from other NU students who overwhelmingly do, and I'd take Cornell.

NU and Cornell are objectively peer schools. If you want to work in Chicago, then go to NU. If you just want any biglaw, then go to the school that offers you more money or to the place you would rather spend the next three years after factoring in COA.

There's no data to suggest that a top of the class, median, or below-median Northwestern student performs worse than their Cornell counterpart, and this whole "standing out in a negative way because limited WE" claim seems pretty dubious.

Nobody is talking about grades. What people are saying is that there are probably (we obviously can't know) a disproportionate number of people at NU who go to LS with work experience in 'business' that is actually business and not just retail. So if they choose to go back to 'business' after law school, that category may actually mean legitimate jobs.

It could also mean nothing.

I understand that. I was responding to the point that Cornell > NU if you don't have good WE and lack ties to Chicago. Given the uncertainty, it seems like a silly reason to pick Cornell over Northwestern when most metrics indicate that they have comparable placement.

I obvi wouldn't be defending NU if I didn't grasp the legit jobs (and corresponding lower large firm score) point on LST.