Pre-med to pre-law?

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fltanglab
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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:12 am

I can completely relate to you seeing as I am now a second semester junior and I made the switch this semester to law. However, I don't have a 3.9....ha. Arguably for me passion is a big part of success, hence the low GPA, but I personally believe that people who can do well as physicians should do it. If you really don't like science, how did you manage to get through it all? Do your softs correspond more with pre-med or pre-law? For me the realization that I was a fit for law school came after a tough conversation with my parents and a horrible semester last semester. Upon further inspection at my extracurriculars, everything I did outside of class pointed towards a career in law; I was just being stubborn.

But I have to caution you at switching this late in the game. Have you taken enough non-science courses to prove you have great analytical skills? Writing skills? I am fortunate in that I knew early on I could not survive without extensive English coursework and chose to pursue two majors and two minors to satisfy my many interests. So the switch for me is easy. I just choose to focus on the other half of my interests. But if you are a biochemistry major, I can imagine you just take science courses. Are you doing research? Are you published? Anything that points to great writing skills? If the answer is no to most of these questions or you seem more into med school, just take what life has dealt you and run with it. Everyone has an aversion to blood at first; it isn't natural at all. In my chordate anatomy class last term I always felt faint/ravenous (part of the beginnings of nausea) after three hours working with an open cat carcass. The first time I saw a degu's decap I had to leave the room to sit down. But those aren't compelling reasons to not pursue med school. There are med students who faint in gross anatomy.


I imagine the rest of TLS doesn't want to hear any more of my experiences in the sciences, so PM me if you want to talk further.

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FalafelWaffle
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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:16 am

prezidentv8 wrote:
vahopeful2012 wrote:My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.


This sounds like a big problem.


Not really. Not every doctor is a surgeon. Guts are only really an issue for general surgery. Gastroenterology is a type of internal medicine, so you wouldn't see guts, but...poopenbutt. As for blood...psychiatry? I dunno.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:16 am

FalafelWaffle wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
vahopeful2012 wrote:My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.


This sounds like a big problem.


Not really. Not every doctor is a surgeon. Guts are only really an issue for general surgery. Gastroenterology is a type of internal medicine, so you wouldn't see guts, but...poopenbutt. As for blood...psychiatry? I dunno.


Or dental school? There's still the occasional blood, but unless you're a lightweight general dentistry should be ok.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby rman1201 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:19 am

fltanglab wrote:I can completely relate to you seeing as I am now a second semester junior and I made the switch this semester to law. However, I don't have a 3.9....ha. Arguably for me passion is a big part of success, hence the low GPA, but I personally believe that people who can do well as physicians should do it. If you really don't like science, how did you manage to get through it all? Do your softs correspond more with pre-med or pre-law? For me the realization that I was a fit for law school came after a tough conversation with my parents and a horrible semester last semester. Upon further inspection at my extracurriculars, everything I did outside of class pointed towards a career in law; I was just being stubborn.

But I have to caution you at switching this late in the game. Have you taken enough non-science courses to prove you have great analytical skills? Writing skills? I am fortunate in that I knew early on I could not survive without extensive English coursework and chose to pursue two majors and two minors to satisfy my many interests. So the switch for me is easy. I just choose to focus on the other half of my interests. But if you are a biochemistry major, I can imagine you just take science courses. Are you doing research? Are you published? Anything that points to great writing skills? If the answer is no to most of these questions or you seem more into med school, just take what life has dealt you and run with it. Everyone has an aversion to blood at first; it isn't natural at all. In my chordate anatomy class last term I always felt faint/ravenous (part of the beginnings of nausea) after three hours working with an open cat carcass. The first time I saw a degu's decap I had to leave the room to sit down. But those aren't compelling reasons to not pursue med school. There are med students who faint in gross anatomy.


I imagine the rest of TLS doesn't want to hear any more of my experiences in the sciences, so PM me if you want to talk further.


You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:21 am

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
REally. You don't think that 9/10 doctors are doing it for prestiege/money?
Thats not to say they don't give it 110% and do important stuff etc etc... but what do you think most people's initial motivation is in deciding to become a doctor?


Most people at this point (this point meaning second semester junior year) do it because 1. they can and 2. they want to help people. Almost every med school PS runs the risk of repeating the same "I want to help people" theme. The road to med school is rough and after 300+ hours of volunteer work and patient care, the number of people who still do it just for money is limited. Then putting oneself through four years of school plus four years of residency in the prime of one's life is enough to deter even more people.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby Miracle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:23 am

there is an opportunity cost that needs to be considered when discussing both of the professions.

To enter either profession without seriously being interested in the field is a serious fail.

Also to say that medical school makes law school look like a piece of cake when it comes down to academics is absurd. There are many medical student that could not handle law school content-schedule and vice versa. Not to mention, let's not act like law school, and law profession is at the bottom of the career list. Its one of the most respected professions out there.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby rman1201 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:26 am

Miracle wrote:there is an opportunity cost that needs to be considered when discussing both of the professions.

To enter either profession without seriously being interested in the field is a serious fail.

Also to say that medical school makes law school look like a piece of cake when it comes down to academics is absurd. There are many medical student that could not handle law school content-schedule and vice versa. Not to mention, let's not act like law school, and law profession is at the bottom of the career list. Its one of the most respected professions out there.


I do agree that law gets shit on more than necessary - but those late night Personal Injury commercials don't help the situation.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:28 am

rman1201 wrote:You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).


Most people in stats are some kind of humanities major. If he's only taken science courses there's certainly room for doubt about his writing skills. I'm not saying his writing will be sub-par, but in case it isn't outstanding, there can be doubt about whether law school is the right choice for him or if he'll excel in the law school classroom. Also, why the sudden interest in law? What can he really bring to the table as a lawyer?

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby rman1201 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:32 am

fltanglab wrote:
rman1201 wrote:You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).


Most people in stats are some kind of humanities major. If he's only taken science courses there's certainly room for doubt about his writing skills. I'm not saying his writing will be sub-par, but in case it isn't outstanding, there can be doubt about whether law school is the right choice for him or if he'll excel in the law school classroom. Also, why the sudden interest in law? What can he really bring to the table as a lawyer?


Good writing is only necessary to the extent you can express and analyze ideas clearly, other than that it's insignificant (ie no need for attractive prose or an extensive vocabulary, the more basic the better).
You've been spending too much time reading pre-law advice from advisors/law schools - none of that really matters. A 3.9 in a hard science with no writing experience or social science coursework is far superior to a similar gpa in Political Science.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:32 am

fltanglab wrote:
rman1201 wrote:You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).


Most people in stats are some kind of humanities major. If he's only taken science courses there's certainly room for doubt about his writing skills. I'm not saying his writing will be sub-par, but in case it isn't outstanding, there can be doubt about whether law school is the right choice for him or if he'll excel in the law school classroom. Also, why the sudden interest in law? What can he really bring to the table as a lawyer?


Writing skills mean squat. Analytical skills is what you need to covet. It doesn't matter how "pretty and eloquent" you can write if you can't reason your way out of a wet paper bag.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:34 am

Oh, and if you don't like blood or any of that stuff, OP, then be a "vagina inspector." Doubt there's much blood there. :lol:

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby rman1201 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:35 am

ResolutePear wrote:Oh, and if you don't like blood or any of that stuff, OP, then be a "vagina inspector." Doubt there's much blood there. :lol:


Win

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:39 am

vahopeful2012 wrote:Money is a factor and while I think doctors need to go into medicine for more than just that, I don't see anything wrong with doctors wanting a nice salary for the extremely long, grueling education they must go through...


Sorry, I didn't see this part earlier. When I read this statement I'm actually reading "well, actually, I really just want to get money, but I have to pretend like I might be going into medicine for more honorable reasons, but don't doctors deserve the money anyway?"

Do you realize how much school you're going through and how much training it takes? Ethics is a strong drive to get you through it all. Money not so much. You won't be seeing substantial money for over eight years. It won't even be a light at the end of the tunnel because you can't see the end. The pre-meds I know and the M1s I know are all suuuper pumped about medicine, not so much the money. They get excited at the thought of helping people through their toughest moments and joy from the small victories they will see. If you don't like patient care, well, you'll be seeing patients for the rest of your life, every single work day. So you're right to have second-thoughts. But no where do I see fire for the study of law. What drives you about law? It has to be more than interest at this point. Maybe take a year off? May MCAT registration will likely preclude a June LSAT anyway...

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:40 am

ResolutePear wrote:
fltanglab wrote:
rman1201 wrote:You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).


Most people in stats are some kind of humanities major. If he's only taken science courses there's certainly room for doubt about his writing skills. I'm not saying his writing will be sub-par, but in case it isn't outstanding, there can be doubt about whether law school is the right choice for him or if he'll excel in the law school classroom. Also, why the sudden interest in law? What can he really bring to the table as a lawyer?


Writing skills mean squat. Analytical skills is what you need to covet. It doesn't matter how "pretty and eloquent" you can write if you can't reason your way out of a wet paper bag.


I meant for "writing skills" to include analytical skills, which I mentioned in the earlier post. Science courses are really rote memorization.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:43 am

rman1201 wrote:
fltanglab wrote:
rman1201 wrote:You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).


Most people in stats are some kind of humanities major. If he's only taken science courses there's certainly room for doubt about his writing skills. I'm not saying his writing will be sub-par, but in case it isn't outstanding, there can be doubt about whether law school is the right choice for him or if he'll excel in the law school classroom. Also, why the sudden interest in law? What can he really bring to the table as a lawyer?


Good writing is only necessary to the extent you can express and analyze ideas clearly, other than that it's insignificant (ie no need for attractive prose or an extensive vocabulary, the more basic the better).
You've been spending too much time reading pre-law advice from advisors/law schools - none of that really matters. A 3.9 in a hard science with no writing experience or social science coursework is far superior to a similar gpa in Political Science.


Why would it be superior? Because it's different? The consensus on here is that your major doesn't really have much weight, science or not. I don't know if you regularly interact with science people, but some of them actually can't express or analyze ideas clearly because of lack of practice.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby porgie » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:44 am

I was in a similar position as you. After high school, I got a competitive position in this program at a medical research faciliity that was partnered with one of the best med schools in the country. I performed medical research for a doctor and I got to shadow him when he performed clinical work. Every other person in the program loved the experience, but I hated it. I got overly emotional seeing 2 lb premature infants. I hated seeing how miserable everyone looked while they were waiting to be treated. Everyone else in the program was able to put a lot of those feelings aside, but they overwhelmed me. I volunteered at another hospital for a year before I finally decided to call it quits. I had to accept that it didn't matter that I had good pre-med grades...I simply wasn't emotionally cut out to be a doctor.

Honestly, not wanting to be near "blood and guts" sounds like you're also maybe not cut out for the profession. It really takes a unique person to enter the medical profession.

Study hard for the lsat and retake to try to break into the T14.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: when factoring in job prospects in the medical field, you need to take into account specialties. Some doctors are extremely well-off b/c of their specialities, but I've read a lot of news articles similar to the ones on law school that mention how difficult it is to be a family practictioner s b/c the pay is fairly low. It's also extremely difficult to get into the really high-paying specialties. Take that into account when considering the financial side.
Last edited by porgie on Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:48 am

FalafelWaffle wrote:
FalafelWaffle wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
vahopeful2012 wrote:My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.


This sounds like a big problem.


Not really. Not every doctor is a surgeon. Guts are only really an issue for general surgery. Gastroenterology is a type of internal medicine, so you wouldn't see guts, but...poopenbutt. As for blood...psychiatry? I dunno.


Or dental school? There's still the occasional blood, but unless you're a lightweight general dentistry should be ok.


In response to the whole blood/guts thing, all med students have to take basic coursework, which will involve blood. Additionally, rotations in the M3 and M4 years will include exposure to general surgery and other unpleasant, bloody experiences each day in the hospital. Dental school is a possibility, as it is separate from med school. Psychiatry, surprisingly, is also through medical school. Students won't be able to pick a specialty until the completion of four years, when they apply for residency (the next four years). Biochem is good for pharmacy. OP should also consider public health, which may combine well his interests in policy and medicine. Just a thought.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby rman1201 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:49 am

fltanglab wrote:
rman1201 wrote:
fltanglab wrote:
rman1201 wrote:You're vastly overestimating law school admissions. 3.9 in a hard science is golden, they don't care whether he's taken non-science courses. Get a 175-ish + and you'll have a shot at HYS, 172-173ish for CCN, 169-170 for the rest of the T14 (Just off the top of my head estimates, use LSN to confirm).


Most people in stats are some kind of humanities major. If he's only taken science courses there's certainly room for doubt about his writing skills. I'm not saying his writing will be sub-par, but in case it isn't outstanding, there can be doubt about whether law school is the right choice for him or if he'll excel in the law school classroom. Also, why the sudden interest in law? What can he really bring to the table as a lawyer?


Good writing is only necessary to the extent you can express and analyze ideas clearly, other than that it's insignificant (ie no need for attractive prose or an extensive vocabulary, the more basic the better).
You've been spending too much time reading pre-law advice from advisors/law schools - none of that really matters. A 3.9 in a hard science with no writing experience or social science coursework is far superior to a similar gpa in Political Science.


Why would it be superior? Because it's different? The consensus on here is that your major doesn't really have much weight, science or not. I don't know if you regularly interact with science people, but some of them actually can't express or analyze ideas clearly because of lack of practice.


lol que? Hard Science does hold more weight, because it's more difficult - I don't know where you've seen any resemblence of a consensus that says otherwise. Major doesn't matter if its Political Science vs. Theatre.
As previously stated, you really don't have to be eloquent to succeed in law, you just have to be able to analyze issues thoroughly and manage to express that.

And regardless of whether Science majors actually are analytical, we're discussing law school admissions. The answer is always going to be that with all other things equal, hard science majors will be chosen over humanities/liberal arts majors.
Last edited by rman1201 on Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby Miracle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:51 am

rman1201 wrote:
Miracle wrote:there is an opportunity cost that needs to be considered when discussing both of the professions.

To enter either profession without seriously being interested in the field is a serious fail.

Also to say that medical school makes law school look like a piece of cake when it comes down to academics is absurd. There are many medical student that could not handle law school content-schedule and vice versa. Not to mention, let's not act like law school, and law profession is at the bottom of the career list. Its one of the most respected professions out there.


I do agree that law gets shit on more than necessary - but those late night Personal Injury commercials don't help the situation.


Its mostly T-3, T-4 graduates.

If we had a system like med schools, we wouldn't have that problem.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:54 am

No offense, but I am very familiar with the med school curriculum. I would think most people not interested in blood and guts or what have you could suck it up while in school and practice elsewhere, but if it's a severe phobia, don't force yourself.

And re Poli Sci--it's just that humanities and shit like Poli Sci have lower barriers to entry. Anyone can sleep through a Poli Sci major--go to a kegger Thursday night, dash off a paper Friday morning to submit in the afternoon and get a C, rinse, repeat. At the high end, that is, people who take Poli Sci VERY seriously, and are actually invested in scholarship are no less intelligent than Chemistry majors. Different skills, but who cares. Hard sciences are just plain hard, and dumb jocks don't take them for those reasons. No p sets in Poli Sci, but it can be hard if you make it-at least at my school plenty of people take it upon themselves to research with a professor, get think tank internships, do independent studies. You have to look at someone's experience.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby Miracle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:57 am

FalafelWaffle wrote:No offense, but I am very familiar with the med school curriculum. I would think most people not interested in blood and guts or what have you could suck it up while in school and practice elsewhere, but if it's a severe phobia, don't force yourself.

And re Poli Sci--it's just that humanities and shit like Poli Sci have lower barriers to entry. Anyone can sleep through a Poli Sci major--go to a kegger Thursday night, dash off a paper Friday morning to submit in the afternoon and get a C, rinse, repeat. At the high end, that is, people who take Poli Sci VERY seriously, and are actually invested in scholarship are no less intelligent than Chemistry majors. Different skills, but who cares. Hard sciences are just plain hard, and dumb jocks don't take them for those reasons. No p sets in Poli Sci, but it can be hard if you make it-at least at my school plenty of people take it upon themselves to research with a professor, get think tank internships, do independent studies. You have to look at someone's experience.


????

Not every science class is hard, and I don't know what school you go to, but my at my school poli sci professors are one of the toughest professors at the college so to say that you can "rinse and repeat" is questionable.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:57 am

And to further my point, a 3.9 in Poli Sci, provided you've pushed yourself with graduate seminars and independent studies and whatnot IS impressive. A's were very rare in most classes. A 3.9 is Phi Beta Kappa at my school, and less than two dozen people qualified within my college this year. Not exactly lightweights, those people. If I had busted ass I'm sure I could have had a 3.7 if I really tried from my first semester, but 3.9? You guys make it sound like it's easy. Maybe grading is easier at your UGs.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:58 am

rman1201 wrote:
lol que? Hard Science does hold more weight, because it's more difficult - I don't know where you've seen any resemblence of a consensus that says otherwise. Major doesn't matter if its Political Science vs. Theatre.
As previously stated, you really don't have to be eloquent to succeed in law, you just have to be able to analyze issues thoroughly and manage to express that.

And regardless of whether Science majors actually are analytical, we're discussing law school admissions. The answer is always going to be that with all other things equal, hard science majors will be chosen over humanities/liberal arts majors.


Well I was trying to help OP make a decision. If OP lacks an analytical background, he will want to try and compensate for that. As for science majors holding more weight, I didn't know that and I've been told multiple times that it doesn't matter. But you made me feel a little better about it, so I guess that's good.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby porgie » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:59 am

Dental school's a good option but I'm always shocked at how expensive it is. It's actually way more expensive than medical school at my university. It's about $23K per semester for med school. It's about $23K per TRIMESTER of dental school (estimated total including all fees and stuff is $83K per year of dental school)......and that's not even taking into account the cost of living expenses. The fourth year of dental school is significantly cheaper, though, b/c there are only two trimesters of classes.

Seriously, dental school makes law school seem like a fucking bargain.

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Re: Pre-med to pre-law?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:00 am

Miracle wrote:
FalafelWaffle wrote:No offense, but I am very familiar with the med school curriculum. I would think most people not interested in blood and guts or what have you could suck it up while in school and practice elsewhere, but if it's a severe phobia, don't force yourself.

And re Poli Sci--it's just that humanities and shit like Poli Sci have lower barriers to entry. Anyone can sleep through a Poli Sci major--go to a kegger Thursday night, dash off a paper Friday morning to submit in the afternoon and get a C, rinse, repeat. At the high end, that is, people who take Poli Sci VERY seriously, and are actually invested in scholarship are no less intelligent than Chemistry majors. Different skills, but who cares. Hard sciences are just plain hard, and dumb jocks don't take them for those reasons. No p sets in Poli Sci, but it can be hard if you make it-at least at my school plenty of people take it upon themselves to research with a professor, get think tank internships, do independent studies. You have to look at someone's experience.


????

Not every science class is hard, and I don't know what school you go to, but my at my school poli sci professors are one of the toughest professors at the college so to say that you can "rinse and repeat" is questionable.


I'm saying the floor is lower in Poli Sci. My Poli Sci professors ARE hard graders, and some classes, I busted my ASS and was proud of a B+ or even B.

And anyway, please put my comment into context. My overarching point is that 3.9 in Poli Sci is NOT less impressive. It's actually Phi Beta Kappa-which only about 20 students within my college got (a couple from a 200+ person major). No small feat.

Poli Sci at my school is open coursework. You have MUCH, MUCH MUCH more leverage in picking classes and professors than in hard science degrees here. A lazy student can shop around for the easy profs--I know I've done that to get a much needed A.




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