Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

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HarveyBirdman
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Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby HarveyBirdman » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:21 pm

Really, what's the logic behind lawyers being limited to finding employment in the immediate area around their law school (assuming it wasn't a "top" law school)? What other profession do we see this in? Nobody really cares where doctors went to medical school, do they? I mean there are a few very impressive medical schools, but it's not like a doctor who went to med school in Florida and then decides to move to Utah to practice is going to have their application to some Utah hospital ignored because his/her education was so far away. The applicant will be judged on their own abilities and background, right? Right??

I mean, I understand logistical challenges in finding employment half way across the country. But the idea that a firm is going to say "oh this applicant went to an unranked school no where near here, and while his grades and resume look excellent, well...we just don't know how they teach law over there so we can't feel comfortable hiring him." Do we not have standards for a reason? Everyone at an established, accredited school should be able to experience a first rate legal education if they put the effort into it.

When you begin working, your business card will read "Harvey Birdman, JD" not "Harvey Birdman, JD [law school attended name here]."

drummerboy
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby drummerboy » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:27 pm

great point. i dont know the answer to that. logic would argue that there should be no regional preference, but in law there is a very strong territorial mentality. especially if youre trying to be hired by some big firms.. some wont even interview you if your not in the top 20s. it sucks. i know.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:29 pm

1. There is a lot more of a demand for medical related personnel.
2. Nothing is stopping a graduate of UF from taking the Utah bar and starting his/her own solo shop in Utah.
3. A JD is an entrepreneurial degree and only relatively recently has it become attached with an expectation of a job post graduation. While I feel as though this expectation is warranted considering how much law school tuition has risen in the last 10 years, the job market for attorneys has not adjusted itself in light of the expectation of employment that recent graduates (last 10 years) seem to have - thus, jobs are relatively few and thus employers must set guidelines when cutting through the weed. This includes looking at schools, grades, and ties.

Renzo
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Renzo » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Unlike doctors, there are many many more JDs than there are jobs for them. So when a firm needs to hire someone they are going to be deluged with resumes from people looking for some job, any job. What's an employer to do? They hire people based on recommendations and acquaintances--and it helps to be local to get these.

If that fails, one way to cull the herd is by school: just look at the apps from the school's you're familiar with. No one in Seattle knows if Alabama is a good school or not, but they know Harvard, and they know their local schools. So they look through all the apps from the fancy schools, and from their alma mater, and still have too many to interview. Then they see that someone did an internship in the local DAs office, where they once worked, so they say, "huh, I'll give this guy a call." Turns out they have stuff in common, and he gets the job.

Boom. Regional hiring.

drummerboy
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby drummerboy » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:39 pm

if this is true then the regional nature of the school is only a potential detriment if you stray to far from home. it may actually be to your advantage in some cases. the florida schools for example.stetson not as highly ranked as fsu/uf/miami but places well in tampa area. theyre the only school in town

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HarveyBirdman
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby HarveyBirdman » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:52 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:1. There is a lot more of a demand for medical related personnel.
2. Nothing is stopping a graduate of UF from taking the Utah bar and starting his/her own solo shop in Utah.
3. A JD is an entrepreneurial degree and only relatively recently has it become attached with an expectation of a job post graduation. While I feel as though this expectation is warranted considering how much law school tuition has risen in the last 10 years, the job market for attorneys has not adjusted itself in light of the expectation of employment that recent graduates (last 10 years) seem to have - thus, jobs are relatively few and thus employers must set guidelines when cutting through the weed. This includes looking at schools, grades, and ties.


1. Don't focus too much on the doctor thing. It was just one example. You could look at pretty much any undergrad degree and see the same thing. And isn't the conventional wisdom that the further you get along in your career, the less it matters where you went to school?

2. I agree with you there though there are obviously more risks and business loans involved with that route. Haha, it seems nearly impossible in fact. Imagine: you roll into Salt Lake City, having never lived there before and knowing no one. You rent an office somewhere, get your name in the yellow pages, and stare at the phone hoping someone will pick you. Hahaha, scary. But yeah, possible.

3. I like that you classified it as an entrepreneurial degree....But what else would be like this? MD doesn't compare, right? What does?

The job market concerns me the most and is a motive for making this thread. With thousands of people graduating from law schools each year...it's not like anywhere near that number are retiring or changing careers to make room for them. So it's left to expected growth to "create" jobs out of thin air.

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beachbum
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby beachbum » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:02 pm

In addition to the points made above, you have to consider flight risk. Law is a status- and money-driven field, and firms in secondary markets are very cognizant of the fact that the best (i.e. most prestigious/highest-paying) jobs are in the major markets. By hiring graduates from non-elite local schools, they can at least somewhat insure themselves against their new associates bolting for greener pastures when the opportunity arises. Also, local grads are much more of a known commodity.

At least, this is how it's been explained to me.

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TommyK
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby TommyK » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:04 pm

Alumni network helps with finding a job. Majority of alumni of regional network will be spread across the region, and tend to be sparsely located the farther you get away from the school. Therefore, lack of alumni network makes getting a job more difficult.

Comparing it the medical industry, as other posters have pointed out (and it appears you realize as well) makes the comparison even starker. You're talking about an incredibly saturated market so the small edges and getting face-time with the right people makes all the difference. FWIW, I'm not sure it's that dissimilar to many other industries. Graduate from Seattle Pacific University and relocate to Miami, Florida and try to find a job (non-retail, non-crappy job). The only reason it may be easier is that presumably, there would be a larger subset of jobs for which you are applying, providing you with a lot more flexibility in what you can look for.

But instead, if you stuck around Seattle, maybe you can pull an alumni list from your career center and do some networking calls, attend networking events, etc.

09042014
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:06 pm

This happens in many industries. People know and respect schools near them. They know and respect alumni of those schools. They might have gone to that school.

That said it matters less once you establish a career.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:10 pm

Renzo wrote:Unlike doctors, there are many many more JDs than there are jobs for them. So when a firm needs to hire someone they are going to be deluged with resumes from people looking for some job, any job. What's an employer to do? They hire people based on recommendations and acquaintances--and it helps to be local to get these.

If that fails, one way to cull the herd is by school: just look at the apps from the school's you're familiar with. No one in Seattle knows if Alabama is a good school or not, but they know Harvard, and they know their local schools. So they look through all the apps from the fancy schools, and from their alma mater, and still have too many to interview. Then they see that someone did an internship in the local DAs office, where they once worked, so they say, "huh, I'll give this guy a call." Turns out they have stuff in common, and he gets the job.

Boom. Regional hiring.


mmm this smells like the right answer. honestly, this is just how it works in the legal field. assuming you dont mean solo practices or something, firms will generally do this regionalness thing (excluding top schools).

even if there were no logic behind this (there is plenty of logic behind this), it wouldn't matter because it is what it is -- if the whole market or field chose to be illogical and make a stupid choice (oh wait, it has by not understanding supply and demand...), you'd still be subject to its results/ramifications.

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cmraider
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby cmraider » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:25 pm

Another thing to consider is that many law schools are state universities, and therefore, entities of the state government. Their objective is to be regional. I'm sure the University of Alabama would love to be a national law school, but I'm sure it would want to be the top school in Alabama more. It's the mandate of public schools to educate lawyers who will use that education in the state. Besides, people who want to go to U of AL will mostly be AL residents who want to stay in AL. Also, the alumni network is going to be heavily concentrated in the state the school is located for that very reason.

I think the logic of the "regionalness" of regional schools makes more sense than the inverse. It's more difficult to explain why some schools are national schools and others are not.

Capitol A
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Capitol A » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:42 am

Any professional school will be regional to at least some extent. Even doctors and nurses find employment to be somewhat regional. You meet your future employers and make professional connections while in school.

SupraVln180
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby SupraVln180 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:52 pm

I get this, however, I don't see how a school like Notre Dame or UNC isn't considered national in this respect. People from Utah know what Notre Dame and UNC are and they would consider them top schools, maybe to a lesser extent than the T14, but still.

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TTH
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby TTH » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:56 pm

SupraVln180 wrote:I get this, however, I don't see how a school like Notre Dame or UNC isn't considered national in this respect. People from Utah know what Notre Dame and UNC are and they would consider them top schools, maybe to a lesser extent than the T14, but still.


Notre Dame maybe, although lay prestige =/= JD portability, but the University of North Carolina?

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dr123
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby dr123 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:08 pm

HarveyBirdman wrote:Really, what's the logic behind lawyers being limited to finding employment in the immediate area around their law school (assuming it wasn't a "top" law school)? What other profession do we see this in? Nobody really cares where doctors went to medical school, do they? I mean there are a few very impressive medical schools, but it's not like a doctor who went to med school in Florida and then decides to move to Utah to practice is going to have their application to some Utah hospital ignored because his/her education was so far away. The applicant will be judged on their own abilities and background, right? Right??

I mean, I understand logistical challenges in finding employment half way across the country. But the idea that a firm is going to say "oh this applicant went to an unranked school no where near here, and while his grades and resume look excellent, well...we just don't know how they teach law over there so we can't feel comfortable hiring him." Do we not have standards for a reason? Everyone at an established, accredited school should be able to experience a first rate legal education if they put the effort into it.

When you begin working, your business card will read "Harvey Birdman, JD" not "Harvey Birdman, JD [law school attended name here]."


uh what dude, almost all professions are regional

BeenDidThat
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby BeenDidThat » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:18 pm

You see this in undergrad, too.

Philly Recruiter: Ok, so we've got a Temple grad. Decent school. Good grades. Family lives here. Seems like a good candidate.

PR: Ok, so here's a Cal State-Fullerton grad. Wait, what the fuck is a Fullerton? *chucks resume in trash*

Get it? Got it? Good.

jd-
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby jd- » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:22 pm

It isn't just law schools... Breaking into big markets is a lot of "who you know" not just how you are qualified... I am considering law school still and 30, but I can tell you with UG that where I went to school has no clout whatsoever with where I am... That is just the state of the world. On the other hand I certainly wouldn't "lock yourself down" to a specific region say if you got into a top 50, but don't want to live there... I.E. you go to Boston University or USC, because you didn't get into Northwestern or UChicago...and you wanted to live in a city when you were in Law School, but really want to move back to Chicago, maybe work there for a few years, but still want your options open for a big job in NYC or DC later as well, or a different political career. So if there wasn't a job in Chicago waiting for me, I would be perfectly fine taking one in SF, DC, NYC, Boston (you get the idea) I would say do it, instead of going to say Depaul or Loyola instead, which will most definitely narrow your options down to Chicago only...
You could plug in many top metros with a similar scenario.

The way I have researched it is, the T14 is more for the high paying coveted jobs at big firms or judicial clerkships...whereas the top 40 or 50, would still be portable for a long term career. As somebody who isn't interested in working a big firm whatsoever... I still consider the top 40 or 50 an option, but I also have my lifestyle requirements as well. Once you get out of the top 50, you might start to have higher severity in your options.


So for me, I am looking at a top 50 Law School, which is in a major city, my only 2 requirements. Others might have family and know they want to be in Chicago, so they would pick a Loyola and hope for connections, vs going to Boston University.

This is a similar option to where I am at, I would simply not go to school in Madison or Champaign... no way. I also have two body issue, so, Boston or LA might work for finding my SO employment opportunities, and I probably couldn't get into Northwestern or UChicago.

I'm sure there are tons of other scenarios.

xyzbca
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby xyzbca » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:08 pm

HarveyBirdman wrote:Really, what's the logic behind lawyers being limited to finding employment in the immediate area around their law school (assuming it wasn't a "top" law school)? What other profession do we see this in? Nobody really cares where doctors went to medical school, do they? I mean there are a few very impressive medical schools, but it's not like a doctor who went to med school in Florida and then decides to move to Utah to practice is going to have their application to some Utah hospital ignored because his/her education was so far away. The applicant will be judged on their own abilities and background, right? Right??


Limiting applicants to regional schools is the most efficient manner in which to hire people. Additionally, when there is an oversupply of applicants employers can afford to be efficient in their hiring methodology.

As it stands right now, the hiring process is costly and disruptive to law firms. Firms use factors like school and class rank as indicators that help identify the type of applicants they want to hire in an efficient manner. Over time, firms have developed a sample of data with certain schools that makes it easy for a firm to keep going back to those schools. Due to the oversupply of law grads in this country and the opportunity costs involved in the hiring process (if you think about it, the hiring process is quite expensive for a law firm), firms simply don't have the resources to judge every applicant on "their own abilities and background."

While it is true that a Utah hospital won't ignore a Florida applicant there are two counterpoints to be made here. First, there is an under supply of doctors in this country. American MD and DO schools graduate roughly 6000 fewer students than there are residency spots every year. Employers simply can't afford to ignore any applicant. Second, friends in the medical profession have told me that 80% of doctors work in geographic region of their residency.

HarveyBirdman wrote:I mean, I understand logistical challenges in finding employment half way across the country. But the idea that a firm is going to say "oh this applicant went to an unranked school no where near here, and while his grades and resume look excellent, well...we just don't know how they teach law over there so we can't feel comfortable hiring him." Do we not have standards for a reason? Everyone at an established, accredited school should be able to experience a first rate legal education if they put the effort into it.


Why would a firm need to get to know candidates individually when it has historical data which establishes that hiring top 15% from school X and top 40% from school Y works out great for that particular firm? If I have 400 applications on my desk for five spots I would be insane to waste precious hours getting to know all 400 candidates when I can instantly narrow it down to twenty by using school and class rank as a filtering tool.

drummerboy
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby drummerboy » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:38 pm

correct. thats plus the invaluable connections that one hopefully makes with the local legal community during law school will determine who gets the job. my dad is a physician. prior to graduation, there is something akin to oci at the international specialty convention. most of the time, despite successful interviews, the great majority of applicants will gravitate towards their regional market ( Place where they did their residency) and use connections with drug reps and practioners they got to know during their years in residency to secure a job or just start out on their own. indeed, although the quality of a law school is important, personal contacts can usually tip the scales in your favor.

Renzo
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Renzo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:08 pm

xyzbca wrote: First, there is an under supply of doctors in this country. American MD and DO schools graduate roughly 6000 fewer students than there are residency spots every year. Employers simply can't afford to ignore any applicant.


Not to derail the thread, but this isn't true. Last year was the first year in history where there were not enough residency slots available for all the US medical school graduates. It's actually a crisis in the making, but one that has largely gone unnoticed.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:21 pm

Renzo wrote:
xyzbca wrote: First, there is an under supply of doctors in this country. American MD and DO schools graduate roughly 6000 fewer students than there are residency spots every year. Employers simply can't afford to ignore any applicant.


Not to derail the thread, but this isn't true. Last year was the first year in history where there were not enough residency slots available for all the US medical school graduates. It's actually a crisis in the making, but one that has largely gone unnoticed.


this counting DOs as well? because i dont think it is assumed that all DOs get access to residency slots

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Lwoods
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Lwoods » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:30 pm

dr123 wrote:
HarveyBirdman wrote:Really, what's the logic behind lawyers being limited to finding employment in the immediate area around their law school (assuming it wasn't a "top" law school)? What other profession do we see this in? Nobody really cares where doctors went to medical school, do they? I mean there are a few very impressive medical schools, but it's not like a doctor who went to med school in Florida and then decides to move to Utah to practice is going to have their application to some Utah hospital ignored because his/her education was so far away. The applicant will be judged on their own abilities and background, right? Right??

I mean, I understand logistical challenges in finding employment half way across the country. But the idea that a firm is going to say "oh this applicant went to an unranked school no where near here, and while his grades and resume look excellent, well...we just don't know how they teach law over there so we can't feel comfortable hiring him." Do we not have standards for a reason? Everyone at an established, accredited school should be able to experience a first rate legal education if they put the effort into it.

When you begin working, your business card will read "Harvey Birdman, JD" not "Harvey Birdman, JD [law school attended name here]."


uh what dude, almost all professions are regional


+1

My husband, who went to medical school in NYC, put his parents' Midwestern address on his residency application, which helped him get interviews in the Midwest as well as NYC.

It's also a bit of self-selection, I believe, too. Most of my coworkers at the Fortune 500 went to either schools within the state or national schools (but mostly the former).

xyzbca
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby xyzbca » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:35 pm

Renzo wrote:Not to derail the thread, but this isn't true. Last year was the first year in history where there were not enough residency slots available for all the US medical school graduates. It's actually a crisis in the making, but one that has largely gone unnoticed.


Source?

Every year there are ~25,000 residency spots in the US.

http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/index.html

There were ~16,900 US MD grads in 2010.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... =434&cat=8

There were ~3,900 US DO grads in 2010.

http://www.aacom.org/news/releases/Pages/062310-pr.aspx

Total of ~20,800. My 6000 shortage figure is outdated but that is still a shortage of 4,200 grads for available residency spots. More than enough to cover every US MD and DO grad.

I'm using "US" to indicate US based MD and DO schools.

EDIT: Added source for the DO figure.

Renzo
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Renzo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:12 pm

xyzbca wrote:
Renzo wrote:Not to derail the thread, but this isn't true. Last year was the first year in history where there were not enough residency slots available for all the US medical school graduates. It's actually a crisis in the making, but one that has largely gone unnoticed.


Source?

Every year there are ~25,000 residency spots in the US.

http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/index.html

There were ~16,900 US MD grads in 2010.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... =434&cat=8

There were ~3,900 US DO grads in 2010.

http://www.aacom.org/news/releases/Pages/062310-pr.aspx

Total of ~20,800. My 6000 shortage figure is outdated but that is still a shortage of 4,200 grads for available residency spots. More than enough to cover every US MD and DO grad.

I'm using "US" to indicate US based MD and DO schools.

EDIT: Added source for the DO figure.


My source was dinner conversation with a personal acquaintance who is the head of a fairly prestigious medical residency program, who I'm inclined to believe.

You're numbers look about right, but we'd need to know how many of those residencies are entry-level and how many are limited-entry specialty residencies for them to be meaningful. If there are ten million spots open for emergency ultrasonography, that's meaningless if there are only twelve spots for entry-level emergency medicine. (as an example). That number from the Match program doesn't separate the two out.

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Lwoods
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Re: Logic behind the "regionalness" of most schools

Postby Lwoods » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:21 pm

Renzo wrote:
xyzbca wrote:
Renzo wrote:Not to derail the thread, but this isn't true. Last year was the first year in history where there were not enough residency slots available for all the US medical school graduates. It's actually a crisis in the making, but one that has largely gone unnoticed.


Source?

Every year there are ~25,000 residency spots in the US.

http://www.nrmp.org/about_nrmp/index.html

There were ~16,900 US MD grads in 2010.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/compare ... =434&cat=8

There were ~3,900 US DO grads in 2010.

http://www.aacom.org/news/releases/Pages/062310-pr.aspx

Total of ~20,800. My 6000 shortage figure is outdated but that is still a shortage of 4,200 grads for available residency spots. More than enough to cover every US MD and DO grad.

I'm using "US" to indicate US based MD and DO schools.

EDIT: Added source for the DO figure.


My source was dinner conversation with a personal acquaintance who is the head of a fairly prestigious medical residency program, who I'm inclined to believe.

You're numbers look about right, but we'd need to know how many of those residencies are entry-level and how many are limited-entry specialty residencies for them to be meaningful. If there are ten million spots open for emergency ultrasonography, that's meaningless if there are only twelve spots for entry-level emergency medicine. (as an example). That number from the Match program doesn't separate the two out.

Maybe s/he was speaking about that specific specialty? A greater proportion of US students are applying for the more competitive specialties, but there are still quite a few openings in primary care... usually filled by international students (IMGs).




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