A question of motivation

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Alex-Trof
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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:13 pm

JazzOne wrote:+1

I was working two jobs with long hours for shit pay and no respect. I'd rather work one job with long hours for awesome pay and little respect. Of course, presuming you will get biglaw is a recipe for disappointment.


I think that's basically what it all boils down to for me. Will I be willing to risk a huge loan and an inability to change my profession if I do not get a BigLaw (which in this economy unless you are HYS is a reach for everyone)? Will I still be ok with not "being in love" with my job if I don't make the big bucks? It is easy question to answer for someone who wanted to be a lawyer all his/her life. For me this question is more tricky.

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Ty Webb
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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Ty Webb » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:18 pm

aspire2more wrote:I'm a 0L too so take my advice for what it's worth.

If you're not interested in being a lawyer, I don't recommend going to law school. I especially don't recommend going to law school and taking on $200K in student loan debt (which by the way, canNOT be discharged in bankruptcy!) if you don't want to be an attorney. That's a lot of money to pay back for someone whose real interests "do not pay money" and who can only say they don't "hate" law. Also, in this economy and with the currently oversaturated legal market, I wouldn't bank on getting a whole lot of money or prestige. You'll be lucky to get a decent job, period. Those prestigious jobs with great salaries are virtually exclusive to major firms. Your income will be offset somewhat by the massive amount of loans you may have taken out, and you will absolutely be working a lot more hours than your post indicates will be acceptable to you.

There's nothing written that says you have to want to be an attorney from childhood. I wanted to be a postal worker at age 5 and a doctor at age 16. I did not pursue either of those career paths. Through classes and internships in undergrad and then really falling into the first legal job I could find in the horrific 2008 economy, I got experience working with attorneys and finally figured out I wanted to be one. If you have zero experience with what it will be like to be an attorney, I highly recommend you get some before investing any time or money into the LSAT/application process. I would honestly think that your self-professed motivation and laziness would be a major hindrance to your success
.

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Ty Webb
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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Ty Webb » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:22 pm

rose711 wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:
rose711 wrote:Are you serious?

You will hate law school. You will hate your law job, should you get one.


Pretty serious. LOL

I actually think I will not hate law school. I think law school will be pretty fun. Not every class, of course, but given the flexibility of taking anything I wish, I think I will enjoy it. I do like theoretical debates and arguments. Short arguments was my favorite part of LSAT :-).

I wouldn't say I will necessarily hate "law job" (I assume we are talking about being an associate for a law firm), but I don't think that I will love it. But what else do you suggest? I will not like working regardless of what I do. I can't just sit at home, I need money to survive. At least I have a shot at making more money than an average person and some bragging rights.

P.S. My job counselor in college used to say: " Go to the bookstore and pick a magazine that you like to read the most and that should be your career." The only magazines I like to read are the ones with very expensive cars and beautiful women. I think that makes me a person that like "burning more than earning". I don't mind working to have nice things in life.


You don't know what you are talking about when you discuss law school.

And I said "law job" because I doubt that you will find a job at a firm, but possibly you might find a job related to law somewhere.

I'm not a career advisor but it sounds like the one you had was terrible. I can advise you on law, and I think you will hate it. If you are going into debt to go to school, you are making a mistake.

But, go ahead, give it a whirl and let us know how it goes after your first semester. You can always drop out without too much debt.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby JazzOne » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:29 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
JazzOne wrote:+1

I was working two jobs with long hours for shit pay and no respect. I'd rather work one job with long hours for awesome pay and little respect. Of course, presuming you will get biglaw is a recipe for disappointment.


I think that's basically what it all boils down to for me. Will I be willing to risk a huge loan and an inability to change my profession if I do not get a BigLaw (which in this economy unless you are HYS is a reach for everyone)? Will I still be ok with not "being in love" with my job if I don't make the big bucks? It is easy question to answer for someone who wanted to be a lawyer all his/her life. For me this question is more tricky.

I began to consider law as a career a bit late in life. Like you, I did not have a burning desire to become a lawyer. However, I chose law because it coincided with my strengths. I enjoy reading, and I think I'm a good writer. I am also decent at public speaking. I mitigated my risks by taking a scholarship instead of going to the highest-ranked school possible
Last edited by JazzOne on Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:29 pm

rose711 wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about when you discuss law school.

And I said "law job" because I doubt that you will find a job at a firm, but possibly you might find a job related to law somewhere.

I'm not a career advisor but it sounds like the one you had was terrible. I can advise you on law, and I think you will hate it. If you are going into debt to go to school, you are making a mistake.

But, go ahead, give it a whirl and let us know how it goes after your first semester. You can always drop out without too much debt.


LOL. Of course I do not know what I am talking about, that is why I am asking questions on this board. That is why I said "I think" I will like law school. I didn't say I will like it for sure. No need to be condescending.

By the way, nobody really knows whether they will like law school or not until they try it.

P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm. Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250. I guess my personal confessions provide enough information for you to predict my success in landing a job. :?: Nevertheless, thanks for your input.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:39 pm

JazzOne wrote:

I began to consider law as a career a bit late in life. Like you, I did not have a burning desire to become a lawyer. However, I chose law because it coincided with my strengths. I enjoy reading, and I think I'm a good writer. I am also decent at public speaking. I mitigated my risks by taking a scholarship instead of going to the highest-ranked school possible


Smart move. I should have done all those things, but then, I am, :oops: , a prestige whore so I would still probably go to the best school I could get into regardless of how financial misguided that decision is.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Renzo » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:42 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
rose711 wrote:
You don't know what you are talking about when you discuss law school.

And I said "law job" because I doubt that you will find a job at a firm, but possibly you might find a job related to law somewhere.

I'm not a career advisor but it sounds like the one you had was terrible. I can advise you on law, and I think you will hate it. If you are going into debt to go to school, you are making a mistake.

But, go ahead, give it a whirl and let us know how it goes after your first semester. You can always drop out without too much debt.


LOL. Of course I do not know what I am talking about, that is why I am asking questions on this board. That is why I said "I think" I will like law school. I didn't say I will like it for sure. No need to be condescending.

By the way, nobody really knows whether they will like law school or not until they try it.

P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm. Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250. I guess my personal confessions provide enough information for you to predict my success in landing a job. :?: Nevertheless, thanks for your input.

That advice is nonsense. With the work background you've described, it's possible you could fuck up and not to get a biglaw gig from a T10 school, but if I were gonna put money on it, I'd bet in your favor. If you can get an investment job and C-level gig of a company you didn't found, you're smart and personable enough to get yourself a biglaw job, even with grades that don't make you an auto-hire.

I think your concern should be: given that all jobs are terrible, is this really the job for you? If so, then do it.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:48 pm

Renzo wrote:That advice is nonsense. With the work background you've described, it's possible you could fuck up and not to get a biglaw gig from a T10 school, but if I were gonna put money on it, I'd bet in your favor. If you can get an investment job and C-level gig of a company you didn't found, you're smart and personable enough to get yourself a biglaw job, even with grades that don't make you an auto-hire.

I think your concern should be: given that all jobs are terrible, is this really the job for you? If so, then do it.


Thanks for your advice. I am feeling more and more ready to start packing. Law school, here I come 8) .

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:59 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:LOL. Of course I do not know what I am talking about, that is why I am asking questions on this board. That is why I said "I think" I will like law school. I didn't say I will like it for sure. No need to be condescending.

By the way, nobody really knows whether they will like law school or not until they try it.

P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm. Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250. I guess my personal confessions provide enough information for you to predict my success in landing a job. :?: Nevertheless, thanks for your input.


Where is this school where the "overwhelming majority" of grads get biglaw jobs? Because the highest percentage of NLJ 250 jobs landed by the 2009 graduating class of any school was 55.9% (Northwestern). That's not "overwhelming" by any reasonable standards.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby BeenDidThat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:11 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:LOL. Of course I do not know what I am talking about, that is why I am asking questions on this board. That is why I said "I think" I will like law school. I didn't say I will like it for sure. No need to be condescending.

By the way, nobody really knows whether they will like law school or not until they try it.

P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm. Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250. I guess my personal confessions provide enough information for you to predict my success in landing a job. :?: Nevertheless, thanks for your input.


Where is this school where the "overwhelming majority" of grads get biglaw jobs? Because the highest percentage of NLJ 250 jobs landed by the 2009 graduating class of any school was 55.9% (Northwestern). That's not "overwhelming" by any reasonable standards.


The market looks to be up viz. the 2009 graduating class, though that of course is susceptible to change. Furthermore, people get clerkships, some go into academia, etc., so the NLJ250 stat isn't the end of the story. You really think NW outplaces HYS? Please.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Even if you do well in law school, do well in OCI, and do well in big law you end up owing 200K at 8% interest. You won't have a net worth that is above zero for at least 5 years.

And 5 years is a long time to go in big law. So that's 8 years until you break even, and that winning at law school.

If you don't want to be a lawyer don't go.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:14 pm

BeenDidThat wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:LOL. Of course I do not know what I am talking about, that is why I am asking questions on this board. That is why I said "I think" I will like law school. I didn't say I will like it for sure. No need to be condescending.

By the way, nobody really knows whether they will like law school or not until they try it.

P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm. Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250. I guess my personal confessions provide enough information for you to predict my success in landing a job. :?: Nevertheless, thanks for your input.


Where is this school where the "overwhelming majority" of grads get biglaw jobs? Because the highest percentage of NLJ 250 jobs landed by the 2009 graduating class of any school was 55.9% (Northwestern). That's not "overwhelming" by any reasonable standards.


BeenDidThat wrote:The market looks to be up viz. the 2009 graduating class, though that of course is susceptible to change.

We can certainly hope that's true, but the 2009 numbers are still probably the most accurate ones we've got to work with until the 2010 numbers come out in a few weeks.

BeenDidThat wrote:Furthermore, people get clerkships, some go into academia, etc., so the NLJ250 stat isn't the end of the story.

The only word for this is 'duh.' But OP specifically said: "Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250." Unless OP is looking at old data, there is NO school that placed an "overwhelming majority" of their graduating class in NLJ 250 jobs. (Source: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1)

BeenDidThat wrote:You really think NW outplaces HYS? Please.

Oh, please yourself. Where did I say that? Don't just invent shit to disagree with.

In 2009, NU had the highest percentage placement in NLJ 250. There are hard numbers on that. Obviously, HYS is (are?) placing grads in other prestigious positions at a nigher rate than NU, like clerkships and academia. But OP was not talking about overall placement, just NLJ 250 specifically.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby rose711 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:27 pm

OP wrote:
P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm



This is why. From OP's first post:
Bottom line, I will probably not be crazy about doing anything that requires me to get up at 7 or 8 am and actually do anything meaningful or useful. I am, basically, lazy, but, with enough financial incentive and no other options will put up a necessary amount of work


Firms excel in detecting slackers. And the supply of people for good firm jobs greatly outnumbers the demand, so firms don't have to hire you just to have a body to throw at a problem.

As I said, based on your self-description, should you get a job in the legal field, you will hate it. If your self-description is wrong or exaggerated, then I would change my advice.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:42 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
Where is this school where the "overwhelming majority" of grads get biglaw jobs? Because the highest percentage of NLJ 250 jobs landed by the 2009 graduating class of any school was 55.9% (Northwestern). That's not "overwhelming" by any reasonable standards.


Anything over 50.01% in this economy is "overwhelming" by my unreasonable standards :twisted: .

You are right, however, I shouldn't have used the word "overwhelming" and should have just said majority. Overwhelming would pertain more to percentage of class getting employed by any firm.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:12 am

rose711 wrote:Firms excel in detecting slackers. And the supply of people for good firm jobs greatly outnumbers the demand, so firms don't have to hire you just to have a body to throw at a problem.

As I said, based on your self-description, should you get a job in the legal field, you will hate it. If your self-description is wrong or exaggerated, then I would change my advice.


To say firms excel in detecting slackers is like saying kids like ice cream. There is no way you can verify this statement so to say something like that would be somewhat unwise. I can tell you from my personal experience I got an offer straight from my UG (a state school where that firm did not recruit from at all) by a well-known consulting company. They employed a case interview which I think is much harder than what law firms throw at law school graduates (although I could be wrong). Given that I am fairly good at BSing (and somewhat appealing in looks :wink: ) I doubt there is any reasonable way for firms to "smell" a slacker until he/she works there for a while and certain habits become apparent.

Even if you are correct and law firms are somehow better at detecting liars. Do you honest think that every single firm in the U.S. will undoubtedly detect a slacker in me?

Regarding hating my job. Even if I will hate it, so what? Its not like I ever enjoyed doing anything that can be defined as work. The only time I tolerate work is when I am offered sufficient reward. Unfortunately, living the way I want to live without decent income is impossible. Working is necessary evil to me. At least I am not going into a med school, which I believe is a much more unethical profession to want to pursue for the sake of money. And many people are still doing that.

P.S. I am not sure you have a full grasp of a "slacker" concept. To me being a slacker is a science, an art, and a philosophy of life. It involves outstanding time-management, clever delegation of responsibilities, prioritizing and removing unnecessarily and redundant tasks, and of course communicating with the least amount of meetings possible. I have an idea that I attempt to live by. I try to create more efficiency by focusing on doing things of the least adequate(key word) quality in the least time possible. Anyway, that was outside of the scope of this discussion, sorry for regressing.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:20 am

Desert Fox wrote:Even if you do well in law school, do well in OCI, and do well in big law you end up owing 200K at 8% interest. You won't have a net worth that is above zero for at least 5 years.

And 5 years is a long time to go in big law. So that's 8 years until you break even, and that winning at law school.

If you don't want to be a lawyer don't go.


It could even be 10 or 15 years until I will break even. To be honest with you, I am not very afraid of debt. Besides, even though I may take longer to repay the debt, moderately lavish lifestyle and bragging rights will follow my graduation if I am lucky to land a BigLaw job. Basically, even if taking debt payments into account, I will live a better life (afford nicer things) than I did if I wouldn't have gone to law school. Although, the number of work hours will jump up, that is the trade-off.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:30 am

Alex-Trof wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Even if you do well in law school, do well in OCI, and do well in big law you end up owing 200K at 8% interest. You won't have a net worth that is above zero for at least 5 years.

And 5 years is a long time to go in big law. So that's 8 years until you break even, and that winning at law school.

If you don't want to be a lawyer don't go.


It could even be 10 or 15 years until I will break even. To be honest with you, I am not very afraid of debt. Besides, even though I may take longer to repay the debt, moderately lavish lifestyle and bragging rights will follow my graduation if I am lucky to land a BigLaw job. Basically, even if taking debt payments into account, I will live a better life (afford nicer things) than I did if I wouldn't have gone to law school. Although, the number of work hours will jump up, that is the trade-off.


If you miss big law you won't afford a lavish lifestyle, you won't even be able to make minimum payments on your loans. And you won't make more than 50-60K.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:37 am

Desert Fox wrote:
If you miss big law you won't afford a lavish lifestyle, you won't even be able to make minimum payments on your loans. And you won't make more than 50-60K.


The school I am considering has a decent LRAP program, so I wouldn't have to worry about repaying my debt in case of no BigLaw. 50-60K would be about what I am making right now, so it is not like I will sacrifice much. Plus, i do not really care that much about my current job to miss it. At the very least I will have a reasonable shot at getting rich, maybe not right away but still.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:06 am

Alex-Trof wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
If you miss big law you won't afford a lavish lifestyle, you won't even be able to make minimum payments on your loans. And you won't make more than 50-60K.


The school I am considering has a decent LRAP program, so I wouldn't have to worry about repaying my debt in case of no BigLaw. 50-60K would be about what I am making right now, so it is not like I will sacrifice much. Plus, i do not really care that much about my current job to miss it. At the very least I will have a reasonable shot at getting rich, maybe not right away but still.


LRAP only covers public interest.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby LSHopeful2 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:53 am

I think the better question is this: what can humanities/social science grads do after graduation that gets them a job? Hell, one that pays well, too! The answer? Nothing! Hell, the things you learn in humanities/social science are good for your mind, but carry no practical use in the real world whatsoever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4f-4Caj ... re=related

Law school is even more useless than social sciences, only offset by the fact that getting in biglaw and doing meaningless work can just get you big bucks.

Now can someone answer the question? What can humanities or social science grads do with their degree? Use it to get into law school! Because what the fuck is going to get them a job in what field? Anyone?

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:00 am

LSHopeful2 wrote:I think the better question is this: what can humanities/social science grads do after graduation that gets them a job? Hell, one that pays well, too! The answer? Nothing! Hell, the things you learn in humanities/social science are good for your mind, but carry no practical use in the real world whatsoever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4f-4Caj ... re=related

Law school is even more useless than social sciences, only offset by the fact that getting in biglaw and doing meaningless work can just get you big bucks.

Now can someone answer the question? What can humanities or social science grads do with their degree? Use it to get into law school! Because what the fuck is going to get them a job in what field? Anyone?


A lot of jobs just want a BA. There are plenty of cubical monkey jobs you can get.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby BeenDidThat » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:04 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
BeenDidThat wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:LOL. Of course I do not know what I am talking about, that is why I am asking questions on this board. That is why I said "I think" I will like law school. I didn't say I will like it for sure. No need to be condescending.

By the way, nobody really knows whether they will like law school or not until they try it.

P.S. I am not really sure why you are so certain that I will not be able to land a job in any law firm. Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250. I guess my personal confessions provide enough information for you to predict my success in landing a job. :?: Nevertheless, thanks for your input.


Where is this school where the "overwhelming majority" of grads get biglaw jobs? Because the highest percentage of NLJ 250 jobs landed by the 2009 graduating class of any school was 55.9% (Northwestern). That's not "overwhelming" by any reasonable standards.


BeenDidThat wrote:The market looks to be up viz. the 2009 graduating class, though that of course is susceptible to change.

We can certainly hope that's true, but the 2009 numbers are still probably the most accurate ones we've got to work with until the 2010 numbers come out in a few weeks.

BeenDidThat wrote:Furthermore, people get clerkships, some go into academia, etc., so the NLJ250 stat isn't the end of the story.

The only word for this is 'duh.' But OP specifically said: "Overwhelming majority of people who graduate from the school I am considering actually get a job in nlj 250." Unless OP is looking at old data, there is NO school that placed an "overwhelming majority" of their graduating class in NLJ 250 jobs. (Source: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1)

BeenDidThat wrote:You really think NW outplaces HYS? Please.

Oh, please yourself. Where did I say that? Don't just invent shit to disagree with.

In 2009, NU had the highest percentage placement in NLJ 250. There are hard numbers on that. Obviously, HYS is (are?) placing grads in other prestigious positions at a nigher rate than NU, like clerkships and academia. But OP was not talking about overall placement, just NLJ 250 specifically.


Sorry, there were unwritten assumptions built in there, including a reading of OP's post that was not strictly textual.

I was responding on the assumption that OP meant to say the overwhelming majority of the people graduating from the school he is considering could get an NLJ 250 job if they wanted to. That's why I mentioned clerkships and academia. The folks who can get Fed clerkships and academia generally could get NLJ 250 jobs if they sought them. So HYS (and arguably CCN, stretching more in saying MVP) are schools that fit that bill.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:LRAP only covers public interest.


Depends on a school. The one I am looking it has a broader scope. They cover PI, govt., some private practice (if it meets certain criteria), international PI, etc... You basically have to contact them and ask about specific employers.

If not, I could always do IBR and pay 10% of my income for 25 years. Some may see it as a reasonable price for a shot at riches.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:31 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LRAP only covers public interest.


Depends on a school. The one I am looking it has a broader scope. They cover PI, govt., some private practice (if it meets certain criteria), international PI, etc... You basically have to contact them and ask about specific employers.

If not, I could always do IBR and pay 10% of my income for 25 years. Some may see it as a reasonable price for a shot at riches.


Are you talking about Harvard?

Big law isn't riches, esp in Manhattan.

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Re: A question of motivation

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Are you talking about Harvard?

Big law isn't riches, esp in Manhattan.


I wish I was. But, no I am talking about MVPB range. The info is on their website and on TLS as well, but, of course, it could be just marketing crap that doesn't translate in any actual repayment unless PI.

I am not shooting for NYC unless top 25%. Even then I will strongly consider secondary markets. I live in Scottsdale, AZ right now and thats where I have the strongest ties. Anything over 90K/year in here will give you an incredible lifestyle. I can rent out penthouse-like 2br condo in the nicest part of town for only $1500/month. Its amazing. Here is an article (not exclusively law related) that pushed me even more to consider secondary markets:

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/ar ... egotiation




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