Character and Fitness Concerns Forum

[chapmacol]

Hi all,

So I have a pretty daunting list of issues with C&F (I'm applying for Cal. bar btw).

I have a DUI (I did take a DUI course after this) and a misdemeanor assault (I'm in the process of taking a domestic violence course for this, and this can be expunged in a year but from what I understand they can find expunged info and it's not wise to not disclose it).

On top of this I have massive defaulted debts, in the neighborhood of 30k in credit card debts, and I'm not even sure about my law school loans (some may be deferred still due to the freeze, but I am not sure about federal vs. other types of loans some may be defaulted already). Again, I am in the process of trying to settle these debts, although I don't know if I should make agreements to pay them in full over time, take settlement agreements for much smaller sums or just file for bankruptcy.

Finally I'm not sure about my references. Employment references could be sketchy, and general references I might be able to scrape together but it could be an issue.

Should I just not bother with the application and fees and studying for the bar? Is my situation hopeless? I'm most concerned about the assault charge. I can do my best to explain these things and hire an attorney, but I want some perspective on how daunting overcoming this litany of issues is.

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

[cavalier1138]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

[chapmacol]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

None of this was true on my admission to my school. Since graduating I have been in a PhD program, but it has been several years.

[cavalier1138]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

None of this was true on my admission to my school. Since graduating I have been in a PhD program, but it has been several years.

So you graduated, didn't take the bar anywhere, and haven't been practicing law. In the meantime, you completed a separate doctorate program, racked up $30k in debt and two criminal convictions.

If that's accurate, I'd consult a C&F attorney, but I'd also question why you now want to practice law. It's going to be insanely hard for you to get hired anywhere at this stage, since you've been out of school for years without getting any practice experience.

[chapmacol]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

None of this was true on my admission to my school. Since graduating I have been in a PhD program, but it has been several years.

So you graduated, didn't take the bar anywhere, and haven't been practicing law. In the meantime, you completed a separate doctorate program, racked up $30k in debt and two criminal convictions.

If that's accurate, I'd consult a C&F attorney, but I'd also question why you now want to practice law. It's going to be insanely hard for you to get hired anywhere at this stage, since you've been out of school for years without getting any practice experience.

No I haven't completed the PhD yet, it should be done this year though, so I have not been 'out of school' for years, unless you meant specifically law school.

edit: also, I went to HYS, still be insanely hard to get hired anywhere?

[cavalier1138]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

None of this was true on my admission to my school. Since graduating I have been in a PhD program, but it has been several years.

So you graduated, didn't take the bar anywhere, and haven't been practicing law. In the meantime, you completed a separate doctorate program, racked up $30k in debt and two criminal convictions.

If that's accurate, I'd consult a C&F attorney, but I'd also question why you now want to practice law. It's going to be insanely hard for you to get hired anywhere at this stage, since you've been out of school for years without getting any practice experience.

No I haven't completed the PhD yet, it should be done this year though, so I have not been 'out of school' for years, unless you meant specifically law school.

edit: also, I went to HYS, still be insanely hard to get hired anywhere?

Yes, still insanely hard because yes, I meant law school. No one hiring new lawyers cares about your doctoral work unless you happen to be in IP, and even then, they're going to wonder why you did law school first. Not practicing right out of school is a very bad sign, and it will impede your ability to get hired.

But why are you actually looking to practice now? Why did you go to law school in the first place if you didn't intend to work as a lawyer after graduation?

[chapmacol]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

None of this was true on my admission to my school. Since graduating I have been in a PhD program, but it has been several years.

So you graduated, didn't take the bar anywhere, and haven't been practicing law. In the meantime, you completed a separate doctorate program, racked up $30k in debt and two criminal convictions.

If that's accurate, I'd consult a C&F attorney, but I'd also question why you now want to practice law. It's going to be insanely hard for you to get hired anywhere at this stage, since you've been out of school for years without getting any practice experience.

No I haven't completed the PhD yet, it should be done this year though, so I have not been 'out of school' for years, unless you meant specifically law school.

edit: also, I went to HYS, still be insanely hard to get hired anywhere?

Yes, still insanely hard because yes, I meant law school. No one hiring new lawyers cares about your doctoral work unless you happen to be in IP, and even then, they're going to wonder why you did law school first. Not practicing right out of school is a very bad sign, and it will impede your ability to get hired.

But why are you actually looking to practice now? Why did you go to law school in the first place if you didn't intend to work as a lawyer after graduation?

I want to be a professor of law and neuroscience. Lol.

[nixy]

I'm pretty sure that if you're a law prof, you don't have to be admitted to the bar, right? Also, a PhD in neuroscience seems like one of the few PhDs that's going to be relatively marketable/desirable. Obviously academia isn't a simple/easy job to get, but why not finish the PhD and apply to the various fellowship programs for training profs (like the Climenko)? Or follow the academic path on the neuroscience side?

[chapmacol]

I'm pretty sure that if you're a law prof, you don't have to be admitted to the bar, right? Also, a PhD in neuroscience seems like one of the few PhDs that's going to be relatively marketable/desirable. Obviously academia isn't a simple/easy job to get, but why not finish the PhD and apply to the various fellowship programs for training profs (like the Climenko)? Or follow the academic path on the neuroscience side?

Sure I had just read that law profs generally need a couple years of practice to be hirable.

[chapmacol]

I just got a job at a convenience store so maybe that'll be my future.

[cavalier1138]

I'm still so confused about your process. You went to law school with the plan of becoming a professor, but did you ever talk to law professors about how this all works? Everyone I know who was interested in academia had a mentor (or three) who could explain hiring, expectations, etc. How did you not discuss any of this before graduation?

[Belli]

I went to a top school btw, would hate to throw away those 3 years.

You disclosed all this to your school, right?

Also, I'm confused about the timeline. Did you just graduate, or what have you been doing since graduation? If you just graduated, you can probably still leverage your school's resources to help with the process.

None of this was true on my admission to my school. Since graduating I have been in a PhD program, but it has been several years.

So you graduated, didn't take the bar anywhere, and haven't been practicing law. In the meantime, you completed a separate doctorate program, racked up $30k in debt and two criminal convictions.

If that's accurate, I'd consult a C&F attorney, but I'd also question why you now want to practice law. It's going to be insanely hard for you to get hired anywhere at this stage, since you've been out of school for years without getting any practice experience.

No I haven't completed the PhD yet, it should be done this year though, so I have not been 'out of school' for years, unless you meant specifically law school.

edit: also, I went to HYS, still be insanely hard to get hired anywhere?

Yes, still insanely hard because yes, I meant law school. No one hiring new lawyers cares about your doctoral work unless you happen to be in IP, and even then, they're going to wonder why you did law school first. Not practicing right out of school is a very bad sign, and it will impede your ability to get hired.

But why are you actually looking to practice now? Why did you go to law school in the first place if you didn't intend to work as a lawyer after graduation?

I want to be a professor of law and neuroscience. Lol.

Becoming a Law Professor:
A Candidate’s Guide
Brannon P. Denning, Marcia L. McCormick, and Jeffrey M. Lipshaw

Denning, Brannon P. and McCormick, Marcia L. and Lipshaw, Jeffrey M., Becoming a Law Professor: A Candidate's Guide (July 29, 2010). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=1650713 or http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.1650713

It's very short but it will guide you to other sources.

[Anonymous User]

A big part of the hurdle is the question of judgment. You knew C&F was a thing yet you were financially irresponsible and did some crimes, all after getting your JD. How do you not even know your student debt balance? This will all come up in a background check for a firm too, by the way.

[nixy]

I meant to mention your debts earlier. You’d probably benefit from consulting with a credit counselor. For bar admission purposes, the crucial thing will be to show that you’ve taken steps to address the problem and make things right. I don’t know whether the best option will be making a payment plan for the full amount or getting a settlement to pay less or what, which is what a counselor can work out with you, but if you apply with the debt situation still unresolved, that’s not going to go well. And address the student loan debts as well.

As for being a prof, could you pursue it through the neuroscience field? No C&F there as far as I can tell. But I’d still explore trying some of the legal academic fellowships. It’s true that a couple of years of practice could help, but if you lean in hard to publishing/teaching it may not be necessary. Not many law prof candidates get PhDs in neuroscience.

I do think that with these issues being so recent/current, you’re going to struggle a lot. There are convicted felons who’ve been admitted to state bars (see Shon Hopwood), but usually only after quite some time has passed and they can show they’ve turned their life around. No offense, but you don’t seem to be there yet.

Rightly or wrongly, I think state bars are often more squirrelly about money issues than other legal matters (although neither of yours are good), and it seems that that is the most feasible thing to address right now (you can’t do much about the convictions), so I’d really work on that.

Your comments are references are a little concerning too, though.

Really, you need to find a good C&F attorney and probably work out a longer-term plan for rehabilitating your image.