MBE - how'd you feel?

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How did the MBE go, compared to your expectation?

A lot easier than I expected.
6
2%
Somewhat easier than I expected.
11
4%
About how I expected.
36
12%
Somewhat harder than I expected.
89
29%
A lot harder than I expected.
167
54%
 
Total votes: 309

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kjartan

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby kjartan » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:34 pm

The claim that students today are "less able" just smacks of the worst aspects of Boomerism.

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somuchbooty

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby somuchbooty » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:37 pm

kjartan wrote:The claim that students today are "less able" just smacks of the worst aspects of Boomerism.


My worry is they're going to double down on their stupid opinion and have this continue in another decline, as people tend to do.

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5ky

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby 5ky » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:46 pm

the pass rate in NY was the same in 2014 as it was in 2012 (for first time takes from ABA schools). 2013 was just flukily high.

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kjartan

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby kjartan » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:47 pm

somuchbooty wrote:
kjartan wrote:The claim that students today are "less able" just smacks of the worst aspects of Boomerism.


My worry is they're going to double down on their stupid opinion and have this continue in another decline, as people tend to do.

It's possible, although the NCBE certainly risks losing legitimacy if pass rates continue to decline so rapidly.

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5ky

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby 5ky » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:49 pm

LAW813FL wrote:I wonder what the curve will be. I went back and looked at other threads right after the exam and nobody has ever complained or talked about an mbe like this so I wonder if that's a good thing or it says something bad about us


this just isn't true. the other years were like this too, 2013 in particular. our main thread was deleted though, there was too much talk of specific questions.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:53 pm

Last year's MBE thread definitely reacted exactly the way you guys are. When I took it in 2011, everyone I talked to had the same reaction. I can't speak to the changing pass rates, but everyone each year walks out insisting the questions were completely different from what they studied.

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby LAW813FL » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:55 pm

Well damn I wanted us to be special

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somuchbooty

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby somuchbooty » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:58 pm

I think they pick a few random subjects to focus on that are out of left field every year and it just rotates.

Which is evidence this process is a joke more than anything. All the bar prep companies tell you to focus on this, this, this, and that, but you actually get tested on this other thing that may have been mentioned but may not have been in a long summer course. Woo!

Wouldn't really be that hard to test the key things you think a lawyer should know to be minimally competent every year and just accept that a higher percentage would pass because they learned all of those things in their prep. The states individually can test the stuff they want to focus on with their own specific stuff.

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UVAIce

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby UVAIce » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:10 pm

Honestly, the main difference for us is the fact that this was the first July session with a civ pro section. One of the impacts of this is that you're tested less on the other sections. I have a hunch that part of the reason that we felt a particular section tested less of the overall area or skipped an area is the fact that there are just less contracts, evidence, criminal law, etc., questions compared to other years.

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby LAW813FL » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:15 pm

UVAIce wrote:Honestly, the main difference for us is the fact that this was the first July session with a civ pro section. One of the impacts of this is that you're tested less on the other sections. I have a hunch that part of the reason that we felt a particular section tested less of the overall area or skipped an area is the fact that there are just less contracts, evidence, criminal law, etc., questions compared to other years.

Are you suggesting that a majority of the experimentals were civ pro? Or that they actually had less than the 27/28 scored questions for the other subjects?

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UVAIce

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby UVAIce » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:58 pm

No, they just had less questions in those areas compared to 2014 due to civ pro being included.

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby LAW813FL » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:27 pm

UVAIce wrote:No, they just had less questions in those areas compared to 2014 due to civ pro being included.

Oh ya that makes sense

waxecstatic

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby waxecstatic » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:32 pm

And we're all disappointed that not half the questions, as some prep companies assured us, heck, not even 1/5th of the questions were on jurisdiction.

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby Outis Onoma » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:16 pm

kjartan wrote:
History_Buff wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Just lol @ their insinuation that kids would be dumber from one year to the next. They're clearly making the test harder, it's kind of shameful they can't admit it.


At least own up to it. I would respect them a little more if they just admitted it.

Dean Allard of Brooklyn Law School nailed it with this one
Right now the NCBE is acting like a medieval trade guild arbitrarily and unpredictably raising a very expensive toll bridge and forestalling the entry into the profession of well qualified, very competitive motivated people.



The NCBE is partly right on this. LSAT and GPA do correlate, to some degree, to bar exam performance, and the 2014 bar takers did have lower LSAT / GPA scores. I think Deborah Merrit probably had it right that the lower LSAT / GPA scores didn't entirely account for the decrease in the bar passage rate for July 2014, but it was a mix of worse bar applicants / examsoft disaster stressing everyone out / maybe harder test.

Notice that most of the schools that signed that letter to the NCBE were from TTT shitholes. These schools let in people they knew would have difficulty passing the bar, and then they have the balls to complain to the NCBE about their students not passing. I think we'll see the bar passage rates plummet as even worse applicants take the bar, unless the NCBE/ state bars cave to the law schools. The law schools did a pretty good PR job shifting the blame from the law schools to the "medieval trade guild" NCBE. Edit: The real story should be "look at these terrible law schools profiting off of vulnerable students they knew probably couldn't pass the bar."

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby lushes3 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:44 pm

Outis Onoma wrote:
kjartan wrote:
History_Buff wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Just lol @ their insinuation that kids would be dumber from one year to the next. They're clearly making the test harder, it's kind of shameful they can't admit it.


At least own up to it. I would respect them a little more if they just admitted it.

Dean Allard of Brooklyn Law School nailed it with this one
Right now the NCBE is acting like a medieval trade guild arbitrarily and unpredictably raising a very expensive toll bridge and forestalling the entry into the profession of well qualified, very competitive motivated people.



The NCBE is partly right on this. LSAT and GPA do correlate, to some degree, to bar exam performance, and the 2014 bar takers did have lower LSAT / GPA scores. I think Deborah Merrit probably had it right that the lower LSAT / GPA scores didn't entirely account for the decrease in the bar passage rate for July 2014, but it was a mix of worse bar applicants / examsoft disaster stressing everyone out / maybe harder test.

Notice that most of the schools that signed that letter to the NCBE were from TTT shitholes. These schools let in people they knew would have difficulty passing the bar, and then they have the balls to complain to the NCBE about their students not passing. I think we'll see the bar passage rates plummet as even worse applicants take the bar, unless the NCBE/ state bars cave to the law schools. The law schools did a pretty good PR job shifting the blame from the law schools to the "medieval trade guild" NCBE. Edit: The real story should be "look at these terrible law schools profiting off of vulnerable students they knew probably couldn't pass the bar."


I don't agree. While there very well may be a correlation between Lsat scores and bar performance, nobody really knows exactly what it is and how it is adjusted for the amount of time people invest in studying for the LSAT as that makes a big difference. The Bar Exam isn't that difficult. The difficult part is not knowing what to study and then trying to memorize everything that may be on the test. You could be dumb as hell but if you spent a year memorizing stuff for the bar and then the stuff you were memorizing actually ends up being on the bar...you will pass it. ( I know one individual that passed the bar but can barely string a sentence together, I read motions this person wrote and they were probably less coherent than a junior high school paper). But that's not what happens is it? Instead, you study one thing and the test ends up being another so you're doing the best with what you can. It's more like playing slots than anything else.

waxecstatic

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby waxecstatic » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:11 pm

Oh look someone managed to bring up the LSAT in a thread entitled "MBE - how'd you feel?" Well, this is what happens when you're not allowed to discuss the questions.

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby Lobolaw1984 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:35 pm

lushes3 wrote:
Outis Onoma wrote:
kjartan wrote:
History_Buff wrote:
somuchbooty wrote:Just lol @ their insinuation that kids would be dumber from one year to the next. They're clearly making the test harder, it's kind of shameful they can't admit it.


At least own up to it. I would respect them a little more if they just admitted it.

Dean Allard of Brooklyn Law School nailed it with this one
Right now the NCBE is acting like a medieval trade guild arbitrarily and unpredictably raising a very expensive toll bridge and forestalling the entry into the profession of well qualified, very competitive motivated people.



The NCBE is partly right on this. LSAT and GPA do correlate, to some degree, to bar exam performance, and the 2014 bar takers did have lower LSAT / GPA scores. I think Deborah Merrit probably had it right that the lower LSAT / GPA scores didn't entirely account for the decrease in the bar passage rate for July 2014, but it was a mix of worse bar applicants / examsoft disaster stressing everyone out / maybe harder test.

Notice that most of the schools that signed that letter to the NCBE were from TTT shitholes. These schools let in people they knew would have difficulty passing the bar, and then they have the balls to complain to the NCBE about their students not passing. I think we'll see the bar passage rates plummet as even worse applicants take the bar, unless the NCBE/ state bars cave to the law schools. The law schools did a pretty good PR job shifting the blame from the law schools to the "medieval trade guild" NCBE. Edit: The real story should be "look at these terrible law schools profiting off of vulnerable students they knew probably couldn't pass the bar."


I don't agree. While there very well may be a correlation between Lsat scores and bar performance, nobody really knows exactly what it is and how it is adjusted for the amount of time people invest in studying for the LSAT as that makes a big difference. The Bar Exam isn't that difficult. The difficult part is not knowing what to study and then trying to memorize everything that may be on the test. You could be dumb as hell but if you spent a year memorizing stuff for the bar and then the stuff you were memorizing actually ends up being on the bar...you will pass it. ( I know one individual that passed the bar but can barely string a sentence together, I read motions this person wrote and they were probably less coherent than a junior high school paper). But that's not what happens is it? Instead, you study one thing and the test ends up being another so you're doing the best with what you can. It's more like playing slots than anything else.


The bar exam is difficult in that it is two days of solid mental exertion. The material you need to know is not very complex. Weirdly, I thought the performance tests were the most challenging part of the exam. Maybe it's just because I didn't practice them at all before the test.

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kjartan

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby kjartan » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:51 pm

waxecstatic wrote:Oh look someone managed to bring up the LSAT in a thread entitled "MBE - how'd you feel?" Well, this is what happens when you're not allowed to discuss the questions.

kys

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby waxecstatic » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:34 pm

kjartan wrote:
waxecstatic wrote:Oh look someone managed to bring up the LSAT in a thread entitled "MBE - how'd you feel?" Well, this is what happens when you're not allowed to discuss the questions.

kys



Oh sure go tell someone to kill themselves. I actually had to google that cause I don't spend all day on forums like you and know every abbreviation. Maybe if you abbreviate it though it will lessen any seriousness to what you're saying or any moral dilemma you might have. Why do you think it's okay to say something like this? You have no idea what is going on in that person's life.

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somuchbooty

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby somuchbooty » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:37 pm

turning on ourselves is exactly what the NCBE wants.

lushes3

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby lushes3 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:53 pm

waxecstatic wrote:
kjartan wrote:
waxecstatic wrote:Oh look someone managed to bring up the LSAT in a thread entitled "MBE - how'd you feel?" Well, this is what happens when you're not allowed to discuss the questions.

kys



Oh sure go tell someone to kill themselves. I actually had to google that cause I don't spend all day on forums like you and know every abbreviation. Maybe if you abbreviate it though it will lessen any seriousness to what you're saying or any moral dilemma you might have. Why do you think it's okay to say something like this? You have no idea what is going on in that person's life.


mm seems like an over the top response. damn guys. Whatever, honestly, the end point is the NCBE is going to do what it wants to do regardless of what is said here.

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Raiden

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby Raiden » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:31 pm

Does anyone else just have this odd feeling, that, even though the exam was brutal, they are pretty certain they will likely pass? I mean, yes it was rough and I missed some important issues here and there, but I kept strong to IRAC, and I can't imagine my MBE score would be far from what I normally get in practices (65-70), and with scaling, it should be even more. I assume we don't scale in practice.

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robinhoodOO

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby robinhoodOO » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:38 pm

Raiden wrote:Does anyone else just have this odd feeling, that, even though the exam was brutal, they are pretty certain they will likely pass? I mean, yes it was rough and I missed some important issues here and there, but I kept strong to IRAC, and I can't imagine my MBE score would be far from what I normally get in practices (65-70), and with scaling, it should be even more. I assume we don't scale in practice.


Ya, I definitely feel like that.

I felt like I bombed the morning MBE sesssion, but I also felt like I nailed the CivPro, CP, & Real Prop essays, plus I'm very confident in PT-A. It all balances out and history says people often feel like shit about the MBE's and to just let it go.

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby odoylerulez » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:17 am

Raiden wrote:Does anyone else just have this odd feeling, that, even though the exam was brutal, they are pretty certain they will likely pass? I mean, yes it was rough and I missed some important issues here and there, but I kept strong to IRAC, and I can't imagine my MBE score would be far from what I normally get in practices (65-70), and with scaling, it should be even more. I assume we don't scale in practice.


Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel. I mean, I won't be super surprised if I failed, but I'm predicting a pass.

Essay day went well, and I felt like I hit 90%+ of the Torts questions and 80%+ on Evidence on the MBE. Contracts wasn't too bad either.

But I won't be surprised if I was well under 60% on everything else. Test was hard. Found myself purely guessing on way too many Property and Civ Pro questions in particular.

waxecstatic

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Re: MBE - how'd you feel?

Postby waxecstatic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:41 am

lushes3 wrote:
waxecstatic wrote:
kjartan wrote:
waxecstatic wrote:Oh look someone managed to bring up the LSAT in a thread entitled "MBE - how'd you feel?" Well, this is what happens when you're not allowed to discuss the questions.

kys



Oh sure go tell someone to kill themselves. I actually had to google that cause I don't spend all day on forums like you and know every abbreviation. Maybe if you abbreviate it though it will lessen any seriousness to what you're saying or any moral dilemma you might have. Why do you think it's okay to say something like this? You have no idea what is going on in that person's life.


mm seems like an over the top response. damn guys. Whatever, honestly, the end point is the NCBE is going to do what it wants to do regardless of what is said here.


Call me old fashioned but I really don't appreciate people telling me to kill myself. And honestly I'm pretty sure any experiment in saying this to someone in real life would not bode well for me. But yes, it's the internet and people say retard, kill yourself, get cancer etc. It's pretty pathetic people can casually say stuff like this, but that's really neither here nor there.
Last edited by waxecstatic on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.



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