Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

[S-La]

RE: Best way to find housing in UC and CC... a lot of people in the Philly area use Craigslist to post apartment openings and this includes landlords. I would try looking there for available places. You can also go to "map view" at the top, once you've put in your price requirements, etc, and then you can see where exactly the apartments are located in relation to campus.

[North]

.

[SportsFan]

Wish I could help, but honestly I have no idea how Penn places in the south. There do seem to be a decent amount of people here from Texas, Florida, and other southern states, but idk if any of them are planning on returning there (seems like the people from Texas want to, generally). I think you could definitely get back to the south though, since you have strong ties there. You may just need to hustle a bit outside of OCI.

[johnnyutah]

After researching for a couple weeks, I've been able to to get a decent sense of the areas. It looks like there is much more (bars/restaurants) in Center City vs University City. My price limit is $1300 a month. I'd prefer a 1 bedroom apartment. I'm willing to walk further (up to 25 mins), if that means a nicer place. Is the public transportation to the law school from Center City reliable and quick? Are there any places in Center City that you guys know of that might be a good fit? From what I can tell, many 1 bedrooms in CC are more than 1300 a month. Thanks!

For a 1 BR in that price range east of the river look in Grad Hospital, south of South St. down to Federal or so, in the low 20s. Center City 1 BRs might be mostly out of your price range but you could find a studio if you're cool with that.

It's gonna be harder for him to take public transport to Penn Law from Grad Hospital/South Philly, though.

Dude, if you're willing to walk 25 minutes to school, you might as well just get a bicycle. Then you can live in Grad Hospital and enjoy a leisurely 10-15 minute bike ride to class every morning.

[johnnyutah]

Live in Grad Hospital. It's just as cheap if not cheaper than West Philly

Who told you that?

[johnnyutah]

So what price and distance should I be looking for for a 1 bed? University City/Center City/West Philly seems like the main possibilities right? Reasonable to shoot for a 1 bed under 600?

No, you will probably have pay at least $650 for a a 1br anywhere east of like 48th St. and south of Spring Garden.

[Emmy213]

Do places like Hamilton Court (and other University City buildings) have a lot of undergrads?

[wert3813]

.

[Veyron]

What happens to someone who is say 80% at Penn. What do there prospects look like?

So, bottom 20%? Luck of the draw.

[02889]

What happens to someone who is say 80% at Penn. What do there prospects look like?

So, bottom 20%? Luck of the draw.

Get ready for a long string of questions here.

Do you have any idea what the curve breakdown is at Penn? About how many students have median grades? 40%? 60%? Am I correct in thinking that "bottom 20%" that you referred to does not actually correspond directly with 20% of the total class (which would be around 50-55 students)? The math of these curves is confusing to me.

LST's c/o 2011 profile shows that 249 graduates were employed full-time out of 261. 12 were under-employed (short term or part time), 3 were seeking a new degree, and 10 were straight up unemployed. 5 graduates were either in solo practice or in a 2-10 person firm, 8 were in firms of 11-50 lawyers, and 14 ended up in "business & industry." So, in total, around 52 (20%) had pretty undesirable outcomes. Is it fair to say these people were mostly just at the very bottom of the class? And is this the outlook for that bottom 20% you mentioned?

What is your thought on how low your GPA can be (and how far below median you can be) and still have a shot at biglaw?

[Wholigan]

About how many students have median grades? 40%? 60%?

I'm not sure what this is asking. By definition, there is going to be only one exact set of grades that is median, although nobody is going to know exactly what that is in a given year. Do you mean how much dispersion (standard deviation) there is among grades? Something like "what percent of the class is within 0.2 of median either way?" If that's what you meant there is not enough transparency to know, although some might guess at the answer.

Am I correct in thinking that "bottom 20%" that you referred to does not actually correspond directly with 20% of the total class

I would say this is incorrect. Again by definition, "bottom 20%" would constitute 20% of the people in the class. If only x% of the people were in it, it would be the bottom x% (or top x%). You can substitute any number for x.

LST's c/o 2011 profile shows that 249 graduates were employed full-time out of 261. 12 were under-employed (short term or part time), 3 were seeking a new degree, and 10 were straight up unemployed. 5 graduates were either in solo practice or in a 2-10 person firm, 8 were in firms of 11-50 lawyers, and 14 ended up in "business & industry." So, in total, around 52 (20%) had pretty undesirable outcomes. Is it fair to say these people were mostly just at the very bottom of the class? And is this the outlook for that bottom 20% you mentioned?

I would offer that it's not fair to say that all of these 52 people had undesirable outcomes. I have come across a couple of people who want to get a Ph.D right out of school by choice who are trying to get into teaching. Also "business and industry" does not always mean the same thing at a T14 as it means at a TTTT. That could include JD/MBAs working at McKinsey or Goldman, not just someone working at WalMart or something. That said, there could be some not included in this category who had undesirable outcomes, like someone with a state trial clerkship for example that would have taken a firm job if one was available.

What is your thought on how low your GPA can be (and how far below median you can be) and still have a shot at biglaw?

My opinion would be that it could be almost anything, maybe short of all Cs or something and you could still have a shot. I spoke with one Penn alum who recruits for his firm at Penn and he said that he doesn't even look at the transcripts before deciding who to give a callback to. This is not a vault firm and not in a major market, and would probably require strong ties to the market, but I am sure there are others with the same approach.

[02889]

Thank you for answering so thoroughly! I'll try to clarify what I meant on a few points.

About how many students have median grades? 40%? 60%?

I'm not sure what this is asking. By definition, there is going to be only one exact set of grades that is median, although nobody is going to know exactly what that is in a given year. Do you mean how much dispersion (standard deviation) there is among grades? Something like "what percent of the class is within 0.2 of median either way?" If that's what you meant there is not enough transparency to know, although some might guess at the answer.

Yes, technically there can only be one exact median, but that's not a helpful point to make when looking at grade distributions. If the median is 3.3, for example, then 100 students (or 40% of the class) could have pretty much the same GPA. I was trying to ask what percentage of the class would consider themselves median (or "around" median, I guess).

Am I correct in thinking that "bottom 20%" that you referred to does not actually correspond directly with 20% of the total class

I would say this is incorrect. Again by definition, "bottom 20%" would constitute 20% of the people in the class. If only x% of the people were in it, it would be the bottom x% (or top x%). You can substitute any number for x.

You're right, I asked this poorly. When looking at the grade distributions, if 40% have median-ish grades, what percentage of the class is really at the "bottom"? As in, if you're at the 20th percentile for grades, are you still pretty close to having the median GPA but maybe you let a couple of B's slip in there, or is the 20th percentile truly distinct enough from median that "the bottom 20%" is wholly terrible? My understanding of grading curves was that people with pretty terrible grades (anything including and below B-) would make up more like 5-10% of the class, and above that was probably either "median" or "above median."

LST's c/o 2011 profile shows that 249 graduates were employed full-time out of 261. 12 were under-employed (short term or part time), 3 were seeking a new degree, and 10 were straight up unemployed. 5 graduates were either in solo practice or in a 2-10 person firm, 8 were in firms of 11-50 lawyers, and 14 ended up in "business & industry." So, in total, around 52 (20%) had pretty undesirable outcomes. Is it fair to say these people were mostly just at the very bottom of the class? And is this the outlook for that bottom 20% you mentioned?

I would offer that it's not fair to say that all of these 52 people had undesirable outcomes. I have come across a couple of people who want to get a Ph.D right out of school by choice who are trying to get into teaching. Also "business and industry" does not always mean the same thing at a T14 as it means at a TTTT. That could include JD/MBAs working at McKinsey or Goldman, not just someone working at WalMart or something. That said, there could be some not included in this category who had undesirable outcomes, like someone with a state trial clerkship for example that would have taken a firm job if one was available.

Totally fair point. I should have noted that those would be unfavorable outcomes for me. And you're right in that the "unfavorable for me" outcomes should have also included state court clerkships. That bumps the number of people with unfavorable outcomes (for me) to 67 (or 26%). That's not to say that 74% isn't a good chance, or that other people might look at the employment outcomes and see closer to a 90% chance at a favorable outcome. I'm just trying to plan for what would likely be a decision regarding Penn at sticker.

What is your thought on how low your GPA can be (and how far below median you can be) and still have a shot at biglaw?

My opinion would be that it could be almost anything, maybe short of all Cs or something and you could still have a shot. I spoke with one Penn alum who recruits for his firm at Penn and he said that he doesn't even look at the transcripts before deciding who to give a callback to. This is not a vault firm and not in a major market, and would probably require strong ties to the market, but I am sure there are others with the same approach.

That's comforting to an extent, though with a significant other with strong preferences for NY to consider, I feel like I can only really think about what NY biglaw/PI options I'll have.

Thanks again! Very helpful.

[Wholigan]

Totally fair point. I should have noted that those would be unfavorable outcomes for me. And you're right in that the "unfavorable for me" outcomes should have also included state court clerkships. That bumps the number of people with unfavorable outcomes (for me) to 67 (or 26%). That's not to say that 74% isn't a good chance, or that other people might look at the employment outcomes and see closer to a 90% chance at a favorable outcome. I'm just trying to plan for what would likely be a decision regarding Penn at sticker.

Best of luck with your decision. I would just point out that I still don't think you are analyzing the numbers correctly to say that there is a 74% chance of getting an outcome desirable for you based on this data. Just because 26% of people took an outcome that you wouldn't take doesn't mean they couldn't have had the outcome you do want. For example, all of the consulting firm and Ph.D people probably could have got NYC firm jobs if they wanted one. And now that you've lumped all of the state court clerkship people into that 26%, you are including people who are working at SSC and Delaware Chancery, all of whom I suspect could have had NYC law firm jobs if they wanted one (and many of whom have deferred law firm offers). What is important is not who got what outcome, but who could have had the outcome you want. Otherwise, it's like looking at Yale's biglaw numbers and thinking that GULC or whatever is a better school for biglaw because a higher percent goes into biglaw from GULC.

As to how far the distribution away from median is, I will not offer a guess, since it would be too speculative. Maybe someone else has a better handle on this. But this is the whole point of the school not ranking or giving out data points. It makes it harder for firms to weed out people who are south of median. I think that some recruiters use a calculator and figure out the GPAs of people they screen before extending callbacks, and others just look at the transcript and see if it resembles what they are looking for.

[swoozie]

I'm a 1L, but after the first week of classes, feeling a bit meh about the elective classes. Any upperclassmen here have any general thoughts/input on either admin, environmental, or bankruptcy? (or their respective professors, Zaring, Coglianese, Skeel)

Much thanks!

[Veyron]

Do you have any idea what the curve breakdown is at Penn? About how many students have median grades? 40%? 60%? Am I correct in thinking that "bottom 20%" that you referred to does not actually correspond directly with 20% of the total class (which would be around 50-55 students)? The math of these curves is confusing to me.

About 1/3 of the students are lumped indistinguishably in the middle of the class.

LST's c/o 2011 profile shows that 249 graduates were employed full-time out of 261. 12 were under-employed (short term or part time), 3 were seeking a new degree, and 10 were straight up unemployed. 5 graduates were either in solo practice or in a 2-10 person firm, 8 were in firms of 11-50 lawyers, and 14 ended up in "business & industry." So, in total, around 52 (20%) had pretty undesirable outcomes. Is it fair to say these people were mostly just at the very bottom of the class? And is this the outlook for that bottom 20% you mentioned?

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

What is your thought on how low your GPA can be (and how far below median you can be) and still have a shot at biglaw?

Anywhere really depending on your geographic preference, employment background, networking ability, what you consider biglaw, etc.

[02889]

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

Thank you for answering my questions! I really appreciate the responses about grade distributions and corresponding employment prospects, since it's a confusing aspect of the 1L experience and it's not something easily understood just from employment data. To answer the point above, I don't have any beef with state court clerkships and I totally recognize that plenty of them are very prestigious and worthwhile. When thinking through what my personal outcomes could be after Penn, I'm just trying to be conservative, and so it's easier to lump the 15 or so grads who went to a state court into my "unfavorable" category just because I can't be sure what they're really doing.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

[westphillybandr]

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

Thank you for answering my questions! I really appreciate the responses about grade distributions and corresponding employment prospects, since it's a confusing aspect of the 1L experience and it's not something easily understood just from employment data. To answer the point above, I don't have any beef with state court clerkships and I totally recognize that plenty of them are very prestigious and worthwhile. When thinking through what my personal outcomes could be after Penn, I'm just trying to be conservative, and so it's easier to lump the 15 or so grads who went to a state court into my "unfavorable" category just because I can't be sure what they're really doing.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

Are you thinking about applying next year? I think you'll have a better idea in the next several months of where legal hiring will be by the time you get to your second year.

[WhirledWorld]

I'm a 1L, but after the first week of classes, feeling a bit meh about the elective classes. Any upperclassmen here have any general thoughts/input on either admin, environmental, or bankruptcy? (or their respective professors, Zaring, Coglianese, Skeel)

Much thanks!

Skeel is pretty widely liked and bankruptcy is probably the most useful class.

I had admin with Adler, who was amazing. Can't comment on Zaring, though. Admin complements constitutional law really well, and you get a lot of background information about how the world of regulation actually works. If you're thinking about doing any regulatory work, or you just find politics interesting, admin's a good choice.

Isn't property an elective though? I would highly recommend that if it's an option. You'll have to know it for the bar, and for practice, and most upper-level courses will touch on it to some degree.

[johnnyutah]

I'm a 1L, but after the first week of classes, feeling a bit meh about the elective classes. Any upperclassmen here have any general thoughts/input on either admin, environmental, or bankruptcy? (or their respective professors, Zaring, Coglianese, Skeel)

Much thanks!

Skeel is pretty widely liked and bankruptcy is probably the most useful class.

I had admin with Adler, who was amazing. Can't comment on Zaring, though. Admin complements constitutional law really well, and you get a lot of background information about how the world of regulation actually works. If you're thinking about doing any regulatory work, or you just find politics interesting, admin's a good choice.

Isn't property an elective though? I would highly recommend that if it's an option. You'll have to know it for the bar, and for practice, and most upper-level courses will touch on it to some degree.

If Property is now an elective, take Property. It'll be the most useful for most kinds of practice you might end up doing.

[02889]

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

Thank you for answering my questions! I really appreciate the responses about grade distributions and corresponding employment prospects, since it's a confusing aspect of the 1L experience and it's not something easily understood just from employment data. To answer the point above, I don't have any beef with state court clerkships and I totally recognize that plenty of them are very prestigious and worthwhile. When thinking through what my personal outcomes could be after Penn, I'm just trying to be conservative, and so it's easier to lump the 15 or so grads who went to a state court into my "unfavorable" category just because I can't be sure what they're really doing.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

Are you thinking about applying next year? I think you'll have a better idea in the next several months of where legal hiring will be by the time you get to your second year.

I was accepted last month, and it's very likely that I'll be heading to Penn this coming fall, barring a late acceptance from NYU (as being in NY would allow me to avoid the long-distance thing with the SO). I love Penn and think it's a fantastic school. I just need to wrap my head around how it performed during an extremely terrible economy to fully assess the risks either 1) as a baseline for how things will look for me in an improved economy, or 2) as an estimate of my chances if our economy tanks or continues to stagnate.

When is the data for c/o 2012 published? Somewhere around June? I know it's unrelated, but it feels conveniently after the deposit deadlines for schools.

[westphillybandr]

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

Thank you for answering my questions! I really appreciate the responses about grade distributions and corresponding employment prospects, since it's a confusing aspect of the 1L experience and it's not something easily understood just from employment data. To answer the point above, I don't have any beef with state court clerkships and I totally recognize that plenty of them are very prestigious and worthwhile. When thinking through what my personal outcomes could be after Penn, I'm just trying to be conservative, and so it's easier to lump the 15 or so grads who went to a state court into my "unfavorable" category just because I can't be sure what they're really doing.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

Are you thinking about applying next year? I think you'll have a better idea in the next several months of where legal hiring will be by the time you get to your second year.

I was accepted last month, and it's very likely that I'll be heading to Penn this coming fall, barring a late acceptance from NYU (as being in NY would allow me to avoid the long-distance thing with the SO). I love Penn and think it's a fantastic school. I just need to wrap my head around how it performed during an extremely terrible economy to fully assess the risks either 1) as a baseline for how things will look for me in an improved economy, or 2) as an estimate of my chances if our economy tanks or continues to stagnate.

When is the data for c/o 2012 published? Somewhere around June? I know it's unrelated, but it feels conveniently after the deposit deadlines for schools.

Sounds like you are considering all of the right things. Penn is a great school and for what it's worth I am very happy. Good luck!

[swoozie]

Skeel is pretty widely liked and bankruptcy is probably the most useful class.

I had admin with Adler, who was amazing. Can't comment on Zaring, though. Admin complements constitutional law really well, and you get a lot of background information about how the world of regulation actually works. If you're thinking about doing any regulatory work, or you just find politics interesting, admin's a good choice.

Isn't property an elective though? I would highly recommend that if it's an option. You'll have to know it for the bar, and for practice, and most upper-level courses will touch on it to some degree.

The bankruptcy reading seems really tough though and I'm worried about the fact it's mostly 2/3L's (though the 2L's I've talked to are worried about the fact that 1L's are in the class, haha). Can admin be taken as an upperclassman...? I've heard it's a ton of work.

If Property is now an elective, take Property. It'll be the most useful for most kinds of practice you might end up doing.

Property isn't in the same elective group though, and I chose Intro to IP from that group. Which seems really awesome so I'd like to keep that one, I think.

[Veyron]

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

Thank you for answering my questions! I really appreciate the responses about grade distributions and corresponding employment prospects, since it's a confusing aspect of the 1L experience and it's not something easily understood just from employment data. To answer the point above, I don't have any beef with state court clerkships and I totally recognize that plenty of them are very prestigious and worthwhile. When thinking through what my personal outcomes could be after Penn, I'm just trying to be conservative, and so it's easier to lump the 15 or so grads who went to a state court into my "unfavorable" category just because I can't be sure what they're really doing.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

Right. First of all, the class of 2011 was in a uniquely bad situation and bearing another financial meltdown your class is not going to have similar numbers. Also, not only is it true, as someone else said, that its a fair bet that many of the people doing state court clerkships could have gone directly to a good firm but also many people who have firm jobs lined up defer that for a year or two to clerk. You have to be careful that you are looking at numbers that reflect that since these people may not count towards the firm totals.
Its also been mentioned that our business and industry numbers are high. My guess would be that this is because JD/MBA's make up a larger portion of the class than they do at other T-14s and that they have more success than JD/MBA's at other T-14s at securing desirable b-side jobs (for obvious reasons).

Finally, loads of public interest people have the grades for biglaw and wouldn't be caught dead even applying for a firm job.

The bottom line is that not everyone is working for their first choice employer but I don't know many people who aren't going to be working in their preferred sector come graduation or making a salary that they are very comfortable with.

P.S. The exact breakdown of the state court clerkships for Penn is floating around out there but I'm too lazy to look for it. If I remember correctly it was about 50% SC or similarly prestigious and another portion (of both the state and federal) was stuff that was obviously PI oriented like immigration courts.

Good luck with your decision.

[SportsFan]

No. Also, I don't know what your beef is with state court clerkships. Clerking for the Supreme Court of a given state is going to give you excellent career opportunities in that state. And lots of our state court clerks are at the SC level. Also, state court clerkship clerkships include things like DE Delaware Chancery which, when you are not a 0L, you will discover are kinda sorta just a little desirable. Suffice it to say that you will not be getting something like state SC or DE Chancery from the bottom 20%.

Thank you for answering my questions! I really appreciate the responses about grade distributions and corresponding employment prospects, since it's a confusing aspect of the 1L experience and it's not something easily understood just from employment data. To answer the point above, I don't have any beef with state court clerkships and I totally recognize that plenty of them are very prestigious and worthwhile. When thinking through what my personal outcomes could be after Penn, I'm just trying to be conservative, and so it's easier to lump the 15 or so grads who went to a state court into my "unfavorable" category just because I can't be sure what they're really doing.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

But, you and Wholigan are totally right in saying that I shouldn't get bogged down into looking at the exact job placements of the classes of 2011 and 2010 because they're not a true indicator of placement ability.

Right. First of all, the class of 2011 was in a uniquely bad situation and bearing another financial meltdown your class is not going to have similar numbers. Also, not only is it true, as someone else said, that its a fair bet that many of the people doing state court clerkships could have gone directly to a good firm but also many people who have firm jobs lined up defer that for a year or two to clerk. You have to be careful that you are looking at numbers that reflect that since these people may not count towards the firm totals.
Its also been mentioned that our business and industry numbers are high. My guess would be that this is because JD/MBA's make up a larger portion of the class than they do at other T-14s and that they have more success than JD/MBA's at other T-14s at securing desirable b-side jobs (for obvious reasons).

Finally, loads of public interest people have the grades for biglaw and wouldn't be caught dead even applying for a firm job.

The bottom line is that not everyone is working for their first choice employer but I don't know many people who aren't going to be working in their preferred sector come graduation or making a salary that they are very comfortable with.

P.S. The exact breakdown of the state court clerkships for Penn is floating around out there but I'm too lazy to look for it. If I remember correctly it was about 50% SC or similarly prestigious and another portion (of both the state and federal) was stuff that was obviously PI oriented like immigration courts.

Good luck with your decision.

Also with the JD/MBA thing, there are definitely some people (I know of at least 1) who have no intention of working in law.

[WhirledWorld]

Skeel is pretty widely liked and bankruptcy is probably the most useful class.

I had admin with Adler, who was amazing. Can't comment on Zaring, though. Admin complements constitutional law really well, and you get a lot of background information about how the world of regulation actually works. If you're thinking about doing any regulatory work, or you just find politics interesting, admin's a good choice.

Isn't property an elective though? I would highly recommend that if it's an option. You'll have to know it for the bar, and for practice, and most upper-level courses will touch on it to some degree.

The bankruptcy reading seems really tough though and I'm worried about the fact it's mostly 2/3L's (though the 2L's I've talked to are worried about the fact that 1L's are in the class, haha). Can admin be taken as an upperclassman...? I've heard it's a ton of work.

If Property is now an elective, take Property. It'll be the most useful for most kinds of practice you might end up doing.

Property isn't in the same elective group though, and I chose Intro to IP from that group. Which seems really awesome so I'd like to keep that one, I think.

I wouldn't worry about upperclassmen being in the same class, 1) because you are often graded on separate curves (though this is up to the professor and it varies), but more importantly, 2) most upperclassmen put in significantly less effort than they did as 1Ls. Also, 3) of those upperclassmen who continue to work their hardest (for clerkships, latin honors, etc.), I doubt many will be taking bankruptcy or admin or environmental when they tend to focus on classes like fed courts, evidence, conflicts, appellate advocacy, etc.

If the reading load is a concern, you can just look up the syllabi on the course portal. So far in Bankruptcy I think we've been assigned 30 pages total, none of which I've read since it's obviously unimportant background material. FWIW, admin with Adler was a lot of reading (if you did all the assigned reading--if you're smart, you'd skim/skip a lot of reading), but the actual material wasn't onerous. YMMV because it's a different professor.

I guess if you want the most practically useful class, I'd recommend bankruptcy unless you were interested in environmental or regulatory work. If you like having good lecturers and professors, Skeel has a big fan club. If you just want something to ease the 1L work load, my guess would be environmental might have less work, but you'd want to check the syllabi. If you want something that's interesting, take bankruptcy if you found the Hostess or American Airlines or Lehman collapse interesting, or take admin if you find things like executive orders and separation of powers interesting, or take environmental if you haven't had enough micro in your 1L year and want to do some cost-benefit analysis and learn how the EPA works.