Attention: Fordham Law Students

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon May 11, 2009 5:33 pm

nitsudrx wrote:
Rachyk wrote:So this question is kind of out of the blue, but does anyone know how many people Fordham generally takes off the waitlist?


A lot more, now that touche/d-bag went on that rant. :lol:


I know! He actually was quite helpful, though, whatever he meant to share with us. Now I pretty much know what I'll be doing as a 1L!

Cake: You can do this. GULC is moving, and you are next!

<3

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FordhamRam
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby FordhamRam » Mon May 11, 2009 5:51 pm

.
Last edited by FordhamRam on Mon May 11, 2009 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

geoanthem
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby geoanthem » Mon May 11, 2009 5:57 pm

FordhamRam wrote:Thank you touche/d-bag for the honest assessment of Fordham Law. I am a Fordham undergrad (so I have no reason to be anti-Fordham) but I think it's ridiculous when the Fordham trolls in this thread try to say "OH NO D-BAG YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET BIG-LAW OUT OF FORDHAM, AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T SAY HOW AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WILL GET BIGLAW IN THIS ECONOMY." You Fordham trolls have your head in the sand (and up Fordham's ***) and would be pro-Fordham even if it reported a 35% unemployment rate at graduation. You make a mockery out of Fordham with your whole reasoning of "blame it on the economy." Fordham Law presents itself as a school better than its ranking because a decent percentage of students can get NY big law - and if due to economic reasons Fordham Law cannot give its students a chance at Big Law, it better figure out a way to fix this or rebrand itself ASAP before it falls off the law school map.

Talk about abrasive and brash for no reason.

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pany1985
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby pany1985 » Mon May 11, 2009 5:58 pm

I feel like this thread is made up mostly of people just talking past each other rather than actually debating a topic

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MrOrange
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby MrOrange » Mon May 11, 2009 5:59 pm

geoanthem wrote:
FordhamRam wrote:Thank you touche/d-bag for the honest assessment of Fordham Law. I am a Fordham undergrad (so I have no reason to be anti-Fordham) but I think it's ridiculous when the Fordham trolls in this thread try to say "OH NO D-BAG YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET BIG-LAW OUT OF FORDHAM, AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T SAY HOW AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WILL GET BIGLAW IN THIS ECONOMY." You Fordham trolls have your head in the sand (and up Fordham's ***) and would be pro-Fordham even if it reported a 35% unemployment rate at graduation. You make a mockery out of Fordham with your whole reasoning of "blame it on the economy." Fordham Law presents itself as a school better than its ranking because a decent percentage of students can get NY big law - and if due to economic reasons Fordham Law cannot give its students a chance at Big Law, it better figure out a way to fix this or rebrand itself ASAP before it falls off the law school map.

Talk about abrasive and brash for no reason.

I've heard that the best way to address something you don't agree with is to e-shout about an opposite extreme.

geoanthem
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby geoanthem » Mon May 11, 2009 6:02 pm

pany1985 wrote:I feel like this thread is made up mostly of people just talking past each other rather than actually debating a topic

Don't worry, I have put in requests from current Fordham 1Ls I know about the state of OCI and employment Fordham within this economy. I am not saying I don't believe touche, but his gloomy picture is definitely the first "gloom and doom" picture I have heard about Fordham and would like to get it verified from other students. I will let you guys know what I hear.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon May 11, 2009 6:11 pm

FordhamRam wrote:Thank you touche/d-bag for the honest assessment of Fordham Law. I am a Fordham undergrad (so I have no reason to be anti-Fordham) but I think it's ridiculous when the Fordham trolls in this thread try to say "OH NO D-BAG YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET BIG-LAW OUT OF FORDHAM, AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T SAY HOW AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WILL GET BIGLAW IN THIS ECONOMY." You Fordham trolls have your head in the sand (and up Fordham's ***) and would be pro-Fordham even if it reported a 35% unemployment rate at graduation. You make a mockery out of Fordham with your whole reasoning of "blame it on the economy." Fordham Law presents itself as a school better than its ranking because a decent percentage of students can get NY big law - and if due to economic reasons Fordham Law cannot give its students a chance at Big Law, it better figure out a way to fix this or rebrand itself ASAP before it falls off the law school map.


I never disputed d-bag's OCI information. Presumably he knows more about hiring at the school than I do. However, to claim that such a drop could not be caused by the tanking economy is ridiculous. Are you suggesting that the school itself has somehow done something to chase the firms away, or that Fordham is suffering more than other schools that primarily feed into the NYC economy? Obviously the T14 is somewhat sheltered, but I would like to see NYC hiring statistics from other T30 schools. Every school that sends students to New York is suffering in this market.


At the end of the day, I am only a 0L. If I am ignorant or mistaken, I will learn. I have made my choice, and I'm standing by my (our) school.

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JoshHK
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby JoshHK » Mon May 11, 2009 6:12 pm

geoanthem wrote:
pany1985 wrote:I feel like this thread is made up mostly of people just talking past each other rather than actually debating a topic

Don't worry, I have put in requests from current Fordham 1Ls I know about the state of OCI and employment Fordham within this economy. I am not saying I don't believe touche, but his gloomy picture is definitely the first "gloom and doom" picture I have heard about Fordham and would like to get it verified from other students. I will let you guys know what I hear.


agreed... everyone has different anecdotal evidence upon which their opinions are based. by and large, fordham is a solid school... k?

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 6:17 pm

JoshHK wrote:
geoanthem wrote:
pany1985 wrote:I feel like this thread is made up mostly of people just talking past each other rather than actually debating a topic

Don't worry, I have put in requests from current Fordham 1Ls I know about the state of OCI and employment Fordham within this economy. I am not saying I don't believe touche, but his gloomy picture is definitely the first "gloom and doom" picture I have heard about Fordham and would like to get it verified from other students. I will let you guys know what I hear.


agreed... everyone has different anecdotal evidence upon which their opinions are based. by and large, fordham is a solid school... k?


The OP asked for opinions from current Fordham students, I offered him one based on data available from the office of career services to any Fordham student. Bunch of 0Ls jumped on me for offering an opinion that runs contrary to their opinions based on publicly available data from the previous year. Now you're joining in with a claim that my evidence is anecdotal with your solid opinion as an incoming PT 0L. Good times, expert man. Good times.

awesomepossum
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby awesomepossum » Mon May 11, 2009 6:24 pm

Here is the thing. 1Ls are privy to documents, talks, consultants and so on and so forth that aren't always available to the general public. So there is information that you guys as 0Ls might not have access to. One piece of information that schools tend to keep close although they give it to students is the GPA that students have needed in the past to get into certain firms. What's problematic for current students of course is that the economic situation is changing so quickly that its hard to derive more than a general sense of anything from that data anyway.

The other thing is that even as 1Ls, it's not easy to get a big picture because we hear from people who did well and people who did poorly at OCI and our sense of things is in large part derived from the people that we happen to know. Just because a certain student gives you a rosy or bad picture, that doesn't mean that's the whole truth.

OS, I know you like looking at Fordham like it's the new Church of Absolute Wonder, but you might keep track of who you're talking to. In general, I find that career services tend to 'spin' things far less than everybody else. They face the truth of the situation everyday and are far less into the PR business. Admissions and other Deans have as part of their job description to SELL THE SCHOOL. That doesn't mean they're lying, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily going to give you a balanced picture.

I'm sure that if you talk to enough students, some will sell you some gloom and some will sell you a rosier picture. The truth is probably somewhere in between but that 'in between' also only applies to a certain segment of the student population.

geoanthem
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby geoanthem » Mon May 11, 2009 6:34 pm

awesomepossum wrote:Here is the thing. 1Ls are privy to documents, talks, consultants and so on and so forth that aren't always available to the general public. So there is information that you guys as 0Ls might not have access to. One piece of information that schools tend to keep close although they give it to students is the GPA that students have needed in the past to get into certain firms. What's problematic for current students of course is that the economic situation is changing so quickly that its hard to derive more than a general sense of anything from that data anyway.

The other thing is that even as 1Ls, it's not easy to get a big picture because we hear from people who did well and people who did poorly at OCI and our sense of things is in large part derived from the people that we happen to know. Just because a certain student gives you a rosy or bad picture, that doesn't mean that's the whole truth.

OS, I know you like looking at Fordham like it's the new Church of Absolute Wonder, but you might keep track of who you're talking to. In general, I find that career services tend to 'spin' things far less than everybody else. They face the truth of the situation everyday and are far less into the PR business. Admissions and other Deans have as part of their job description to SELL THE SCHOOL. That doesn't mean they're lying, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily going to give you a balanced picture.

I'm sure that if you talk to enough students, some will sell you some gloom and some will sell you a rosier picture. The truth is probably somewhere in between but that 'in between' also only applies to a certain segment of the student population.

I think this is well put awesomepossum. I just know many current 1Ls at Fordham and would like to get it from them as well. I am not denying touche's information, but its hard to gauge someone's credibility on an online message board, especially someone with a very low post count. That being said, I am taking touche's comments into account and going to ask my friends who currently attend Fordham. I will relay any information I get to this message board.

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pany1985
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby pany1985 » Mon May 11, 2009 6:37 pm

I can't imagine that this economy is not taking a toll on Fordham, at least in the short term. NYC has a huge legal market, but it's not really growing right now and T14ers are probably still flowing into Manhattan at about the same rate.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Skadden Stairs » Mon May 11, 2009 6:46 pm

pany1985 wrote:I can't imagine that this economy is not taking a toll on Fordham, at least in the short term. NYC has a huge legal market, but it's not really growing right now and T14ers are probably still flowing into Manhattan at about the same rate.

Truth. NY is still the primary jurisdiction for the bar for HLS, YLS, Penn, Mich, UVA, Duke, and GULC... not to mention CLS, NYU, and Cornell... and even GW. So while Fordham is 3rd in the city, they're really 12th as far as schools that feed into NYC.

geoanthem
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby geoanthem » Mon May 11, 2009 6:47 pm

lex talionis wrote:
pany1985 wrote:I can't imagine that this economy is not taking a toll on Fordham, at least in the short term. NYC has a huge legal market, but it's not really growing right now and T14ers are probably still flowing into Manhattan at about the same rate.

Truth. NY is still the primary jurisdiction for the bar for HLS, YLS, Penn, Mich, UVA, Duke, and GULC... not to mention CLS, NYU, and Cornell... and even GW. So while Fordham is 3rd in the city, they're really 12th as far as schools that feed into NYC.

I don't think GW would do any better than Fordham in NYC. I would say Fordham is probably 8th or so in the pecking order but a lot of students at the schools ahead of it self-select out of NYC in large proportions.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Skadden Stairs » Mon May 11, 2009 6:50 pm

geoanthem wrote:
lex talionis wrote:
pany1985 wrote:I can't imagine that this economy is not taking a toll on Fordham, at least in the short term. NYC has a huge legal market, but it's not really growing right now and T14ers are probably still flowing into Manhattan at about the same rate.

Truth. NY is still the primary jurisdiction for the bar for HLS, YLS, Penn, Mich, UVA, Duke, and GULC... not to mention CLS, NYU, and Cornell... and even GW. So while Fordham is 3rd in the city, they're really 12th as far as schools that feed into NYC.

I don't think GW would do any better than Fordham in NYC. I would say Fordham is probably 8th or so in the pecking order but a lot of students at the schools ahead of it self-select out of NYC in large proportions.

8th? Over which schools (besides GW)?

Edit: I don't actually care, because I have no vested interest in Fordham... I'm just curious as to which T14 schools you think Fordham outplaces in NYC.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby geoanthem » Mon May 11, 2009 6:52 pm

Berkeley and Stanford don't probably don't go to NYC in such great numbers to make it worth even noting them (though their students would be more attractive than Fordham grads I'll admit. UCLA and USC probably would not be as appealing as Fordham students just based on how strong the Fordham alumni base is in NYC. I was giving a rough estimate, not specifically stating which exact schools it would place better in NYC then.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Skadden Stairs » Mon May 11, 2009 6:56 pm

geoanthem wrote:Berkeley and Stanford don't probably don't go to NYC in such great numbers to make it worth even noting them (though their students would be more attractive than Fordham grads I'll admit. UCLA and USC probably would not be as appealing as Fordham students just based on how strong the Fordham alumni base is in NYC. I was giving a rough estimate, not specifically stating which exact schools it would place better in NYC then.

I see. I had them 12th behind the schools I had listed... only schools where NY is the primary bar jurisdiction for grads.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby MrOrange » Mon May 11, 2009 6:56 pm

geoanthem wrote:Berkeley and Stanford don't probably don't go to NYC in such great numbers to make it worth even noting them (though their students would be more attractive than Fordham grads I'll admit. UCLA and USC probably would not be as appealing as Fordham students just based on how strong the Fordham alumni base is in NYC. I was giving a rough estimate, not specifically stating which exact schools it would place better in NYC then.

So...discounting schools lex didn't mention bumps Fordham to 8th?

geoanthem
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby geoanthem » Mon May 11, 2009 7:00 pm

MrOrange wrote:
geoanthem wrote:Berkeley and Stanford don't probably don't go to NYC in such great numbers to make it worth even noting them (though their students would be more attractive than Fordham grads I'll admit. UCLA and USC probably would not be as appealing as Fordham students just based on how strong the Fordham alumni base is in NYC. I was giving a rough estimate, not specifically stating which exact schools it would place better in NYC then.

So...discounting schools lex didn't mention bumps Fordham to 8th?

Well I think some of the T14, either on the west coast or in strong legal markets already don't place a significant enough number of students in NYC to make it matter so much. I am not saying they aren't more attractive students overall, however.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby MrOrange » Mon May 11, 2009 7:01 pm

geoanthem wrote:
MrOrange wrote:
geoanthem wrote:Berkeley and Stanford don't probably don't go to NYC in such great numbers to make it worth even noting them (though their students would be more attractive than Fordham grads I'll admit. UCLA and USC probably would not be as appealing as Fordham students just based on how strong the Fordham alumni base is in NYC. I was giving a rough estimate, not specifically stating which exact schools it would place better in NYC then.

So...discounting schools lex didn't mention bumps Fordham to 8th?

Well I think some of the T14, either on the west coast or in strong legal markets already don't place a significant enough number of students in NYC to make it matter so much. I am not saying they aren't more attractive students overall, however.

...

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 8:07 pm

geoanthem wrote:
FordhamRam wrote:Thank you touche/d-bag for the honest assessment of Fordham Law. I am a Fordham undergrad (so I have no reason to be anti-Fordham) but I think it's ridiculous when the Fordham trolls in this thread try to say "OH NO D-BAG YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET BIG-LAW OUT OF FORDHAM, AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T SAY HOW AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WILL GET BIGLAW IN THIS ECONOMY." You Fordham trolls have your head in the sand (and up Fordham's ***) and would be pro-Fordham even if it reported a 35% unemployment rate at graduation. You make a mockery out of Fordham with your whole reasoning of "blame it on the economy." Fordham Law presents itself as a school better than its ranking because a decent percentage of students can get NY big law - and if due to economic reasons Fordham Law cannot give its students a chance at Big Law, it better figure out a way to fix this or rebrand itself ASAP before it falls off the law school map.

Talk about abrasive and brash for no reason.


I agree that Fordham needs to do something, if things are as bad as touche says. If the NYC market is disproportionately worse off than other markets, then the CSO needs to start targeting itself toward those other markets and recruit non-NYC firms to come to OCI.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon May 11, 2009 8:12 pm

nitsudrx wrote:
geoanthem wrote:
FordhamRam wrote:Thank you touche/d-bag for the honest assessment of Fordham Law. I am a Fordham undergrad (so I have no reason to be anti-Fordham) but I think it's ridiculous when the Fordham trolls in this thread try to say "OH NO D-BAG YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET BIG-LAW OUT OF FORDHAM, AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T SAY HOW AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WILL GET BIGLAW IN THIS ECONOMY." You Fordham trolls have your head in the sand (and up Fordham's ***) and would be pro-Fordham even if it reported a 35% unemployment rate at graduation. You make a mockery out of Fordham with your whole reasoning of "blame it on the economy." Fordham Law presents itself as a school better than its ranking because a decent percentage of students can get NY big law - and if due to economic reasons Fordham Law cannot give its students a chance at Big Law, it better figure out a way to fix this or rebrand itself ASAP before it falls off the law school map.

Talk about abrasive and brash for no reason.


I agree that Fordham needs to do something, if things are as bad as touche says. If the NYC market is disproportionately worse off than other markets, then the CSO needs to start targeting itself toward those other markets and recruit non-NYC firms to come to OCI.


I don't think most Fordham students want to work in other markets, though I agree that options are wonderful. I would personally consider San Francisco, or Boston, but New York is where I want to be, and I think many others self select to Fordham for the same reasons.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 8:13 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:
geoanthem wrote:
FordhamRam wrote:Thank you touche/d-bag for the honest assessment of Fordham Law. I am a Fordham undergrad (so I have no reason to be anti-Fordham) but I think it's ridiculous when the Fordham trolls in this thread try to say "OH NO D-BAG YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET BIG-LAW OUT OF FORDHAM, AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T SAY HOW AN INCREASINGLY SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WILL GET BIGLAW IN THIS ECONOMY." You Fordham trolls have your head in the sand (and up Fordham's ***) and would be pro-Fordham even if it reported a 35% unemployment rate at graduation. You make a mockery out of Fordham with your whole reasoning of "blame it on the economy." Fordham Law presents itself as a school better than its ranking because a decent percentage of students can get NY big law - and if due to economic reasons Fordham Law cannot give its students a chance at Big Law, it better figure out a way to fix this or rebrand itself ASAP before it falls off the law school map.

Talk about abrasive and brash for no reason.


I agree that Fordham needs to do something, if things are as bad as touche says. If the NYC market is disproportionately worse off than other markets, then the CSO needs to start targeting itself toward those other markets and recruit non-NYC firms to come to OCI.


I don't think most Fordham students want to work in other markets, though I agree that options are wonderful. I would personally consider San Francisco, or Boston, but New York is where I want to be, and I think many others self select to Fordham for the same reasons.


If the options are between other markets and NYC doc review, I think many students would be open to working in other markets.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon May 11, 2009 8:18 pm

nitsudrx wrote:If the options are between other markets and NYC doc review, I think many students would be open to working in other markets.


Do you think it's that bad? I know New York is hurting right now, but I don't really buy the belief that it will never recover. The banking industry is screwed, of course, but corporate law is not the only game in town.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 8:20 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:If the options are between other markets and NYC doc review, I think many students would be open to working in other markets.


Do you think it's that bad? I know New York is hurting right now, but I don't really buy the belief that it will never recover. The banking industry is screwed, of course, but corporate law is not the only game in town.


I'm going to put a call in to Career Services tomorrow, schedule a phone app't, and ask them some questions. If anyone wants me to ask something specific, PM me.




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