Attention: Fordham Law Students

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
legends159
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Mon May 11, 2009 1:20 pm

touche wrote:
let/them/eat/cake wrote:
i'm hoping that is not true. that seems like a pretty steep drop-off. the class of '05 placed a third in the NLJ 250, and they would have done their OCI in 03, which wasn't really a boom economy. (it went up to like 40+ percent in the recent 'boom' years, if i'm not mistaken). so, assuming this ship rights itself, i don't see why incoming 0L's would figure they'd have to assume a number like 15%....

perhaps I'm missing something, or we're operating under a different set of assumptions.


I don't know if you've heard this, but the economy is going through some tough times right now. Nothing huge, only the largest unemployment rate in quarter of a century. It's going to take some time for the ship to right itself, as you call it, but given the large number of deferred and laid off associates, it's probably a sound idea to figure out how long it will take for the ship to right itself. Where 0Ls are going to be applying for jobs a year down the road, do you really think that firms will be back to their normal hiring mode by then? Keep in mind that many of the '09ers aren't even going to be starting work until 2010 and in some cases 2011, and keep in mind that economic recessions last 2-3 years and we're still in year 1.


Don't have the data on hand right now, but one poster did the research and showed that firms in boom years went relatively deeper into lower ranked schools instead of taking the kids at the bottom at top ranked ones. Most likely this is because they believe that the median student at say Fordham will be a better lawyer than the bottom 25th percentile kid at CLS/NYU. No one knows how OCI will run this coming fall, but if I had to guess, I'd say that they would continue this trend but hire less all across the board. That means the top 25th percentile kid at Fordham might still have just as good of a shot as the kid at median at NYU/CLS.

touche
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby touche » Mon May 11, 2009 1:26 pm

legends159 wrote:
touche wrote:
let/them/eat/cake wrote:
i'm hoping that is not true. that seems like a pretty steep drop-off. the class of '05 placed a third in the NLJ 250, and they would have done their OCI in 03, which wasn't really a boom economy. (it went up to like 40+ percent in the recent 'boom' years, if i'm not mistaken). so, assuming this ship rights itself, i don't see why incoming 0L's would figure they'd have to assume a number like 15%....

perhaps I'm missing something, or we're operating under a different set of assumptions.


I don't know if you've heard this, but the economy is going through some tough times right now. Nothing huge, only the largest unemployment rate in quarter of a century. It's going to take some time for the ship to right itself, as you call it, but given the large number of deferred and laid off associates, it's probably a sound idea to figure out how long it will take for the ship to right itself. Where 0Ls are going to be applying for jobs a year down the road, do you really think that firms will be back to their normal hiring mode by then? Keep in mind that many of the '09ers aren't even going to be starting work until 2010 and in some cases 2011, and keep in mind that economic recessions last 2-3 years and we're still in year 1.


Don't have the data on hand right now, but one poster did the research and showed that firms in boom years went relatively deeper into lower ranked schools instead of taking the kids at the bottom at top ranked ones. Most likely this is because they believe that the median student at say Fordham will be a better lawyer than the bottom 25th percentile kid at CLS/NYU. No one knows how OCI will run this coming fall, but if I had to guess, I'd say that they would continue this trend but hire less all across the board. That means the top 25th percentile kid at Fordham might still have just as good of a shot as the kid at median at NYU/CLS.


This is highly doubtful in light of how OCI at Fordham is shaping up to be this year. The list of employers as it is now is truly slim pickings; many employers are opting to resume collect instead of interviewing on campus. That's just how it *is*, not how it has been historically. This recession is hitting the New York market disproportionally hard.

legends159
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Mon May 11, 2009 1:39 pm

touche wrote:
legends159 wrote:
touche wrote:
let/them/eat/cake wrote:
i'm hoping that is not true. that seems like a pretty steep drop-off. the class of '05 placed a third in the NLJ 250, and they would have done their OCI in 03, which wasn't really a boom economy. (it went up to like 40+ percent in the recent 'boom' years, if i'm not mistaken). so, assuming this ship rights itself, i don't see why incoming 0L's would figure they'd have to assume a number like 15%....

perhaps I'm missing something, or we're operating under a different set of assumptions.


I don't know if you've heard this, but the economy is going through some tough times right now. Nothing huge, only the largest unemployment rate in quarter of a century. It's going to take some time for the ship to right itself, as you call it, but given the large number of deferred and laid off associates, it's probably a sound idea to figure out how long it will take for the ship to right itself. Where 0Ls are going to be applying for jobs a year down the road, do you really think that firms will be back to their normal hiring mode by then? Keep in mind that many of the '09ers aren't even going to be starting work until 2010 and in some cases 2011, and keep in mind that economic recessions last 2-3 years and we're still in year 1.


Don't have the data on hand right now, but one poster did the research and showed that firms in boom years went relatively deeper into lower ranked schools instead of taking the kids at the bottom at top ranked ones. Most likely this is because they believe that the median student at say Fordham will be a better lawyer than the bottom 25th percentile kid at CLS/NYU. No one knows how OCI will run this coming fall, but if I had to guess, I'd say that they would continue this trend but hire less all across the board. That means the top 25th percentile kid at Fordham might still have just as good of a shot as the kid at median at NYU/CLS.


This is highly doubtful in light of how OCI at Fordham is shaping up to be this year. The list of employers as it is now is truly slim pickings; many employers are opting to resume collect instead of interviewing on campus. That's just how it *is*, not how it has been historically. This recession is hitting the New York market disproportionally hard.


I am curious as to where you obtained this insider information? As far as I know, firms lose very little in terms of time and travel expenses to do OCI at Fordham right before or after hitting up NYU/CLS. Plus with the heavy alumni base of Fordham grads, there will definitely be people willing to do these OCIs.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 1:41 pm

So Fordham currently has around 100 employers doing OCI? That's ttterrible.

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silenziatori
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby silenziatori » Mon May 11, 2009 1:45 pm

Touche, can you post a picture of the OCI list, please?

touche
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby touche » Mon May 11, 2009 1:52 pm

legends159 wrote:I am curious as to where you obtained this insider information? As far as I know, firms lose very little in terms of time and travel expenses to do OCI at Fordham right before or after hitting up NYU/CLS. Plus with the heavy alumni base of Fordham grads, there will definitely be people willing to do these OCIs.


The list was provided to the students. Also keep in mind that out of all these employers that are participating, there's a good chance that the summer classes will be smaller than in the previous years--fact of the matter is that firms don't like no-offering summer associates, and with the large number of incoming associates on deferral, there's no need for them to make offers to a huge number of SAs lest they end up with a huge class of incoming associates at the same time.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 1:53 pm

touche wrote:
legends159 wrote:I am curious as to where you obtained this insider information? As far as I know, firms lose very little in terms of time and travel expenses to do OCI at Fordham right before or after hitting up NYU/CLS. Plus with the heavy alumni base of Fordham grads, there will definitely be people willing to do these OCIs.


The list was provided to the students. Also keep in mind that out of all these employers that are participating, there's a good chance that the summer classes will be smaller than in the previous years--fact of the matter is that firms don't like no-offering summer associates, and with the large number of incoming associates on deferral, there's no need for them to make offers to a huge number of SAs lest they end up with a huge class of incoming associates at the same time.


Are you a 1L/2L/3L?

touche
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby touche » Mon May 11, 2009 1:57 pm

nitsudrx wrote:
touche wrote:
legends159 wrote:I am curious as to where you obtained this insider information? As far as I know, firms lose very little in terms of time and travel expenses to do OCI at Fordham right before or after hitting up NYU/CLS. Plus with the heavy alumni base of Fordham grads, there will definitely be people willing to do these OCIs.


The list was provided to the students. Also keep in mind that out of all these employers that are participating, there's a good chance that the summer classes will be smaller than in the previous years--fact of the matter is that firms don't like no-offering summer associates, and with the large number of incoming associates on deferral, there's no need for them to make offers to a huge number of SAs lest they end up with a huge class of incoming associates at the same time.


Are you a 1L/2L/3L?


I'm a knowledgeable student who expressed a very negative view of my classmates (they're all d-bags). I won't say my class before they find me and beat me over the head with a Skadden tote packed with resumes.

legends159
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Mon May 11, 2009 2:00 pm

nitsudrx wrote:So Fordham currently has around 100 employers doing OCI? That's ttterrible.


If that is true, then yeah it is terrible. With over 450 each class that's really rough. I doubt the number is 100, likely closer to 300.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 2:04 pm

touche wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:
touche wrote:
legends159 wrote:I am curious as to where you obtained this insider information? As far as I know, firms lose very little in terms of time and travel expenses to do OCI at Fordham right before or after hitting up NYU/CLS. Plus with the heavy alumni base of Fordham grads, there will definitely be people willing to do these OCIs.


The list was provided to the students. Also keep in mind that out of all these employers that are participating, there's a good chance that the summer classes will be smaller than in the previous years--fact of the matter is that firms don't like no-offering summer associates, and with the large number of incoming associates on deferral, there's no need for them to make offers to a huge number of SAs lest they end up with a huge class of incoming associates at the same time.


Are you a 1L/2L/3L?


I'm a knowledgeable student who expressed a very negative view of my classmates (they're all d-bags). I won't say my class before they find me and beat me over the head with a Skadden tote packed with resumes.


Yeah, because if you said that you'd narrow yourself down to 1/500... I'm sure they'd know exactly who you are.

Do you have a summer gig/job lined up?

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 2:10 pm

nitsudrx wrote:
Yeah, because if you said that you'd narrow yourself down to 1/500... I'm sure they'd know exactly who you are.

Do you have a summer gig/job lined up?


Whoops, forgot my password to "touche" and used a randomized email to register. :( Yes, I have a summer gig lined up, but it was not through any of the law school facilities. Had to hustle some networking contacts.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 2:14 pm

d-bag wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:
Yeah, because if you said that you'd narrow yourself down to 1/500... I'm sure they'd know exactly who you are.

Do you have a summer gig/job lined up?


Whoops, forgot my password to "touche" and used a randomized email to register. :( Yes, I have a summer gig lined up, but it was not through any of the law school facilities. Had to hustle some networking contacts.


If you could do it over again, where would you have gone to school instead?

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 2:19 pm

nitsudrx wrote:
d-bag wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:
Yeah, because if you said that you'd narrow yourself down to 1/500... I'm sure they'd know exactly who you are.

Do you have a summer gig/job lined up?


Whoops, forgot my password to "touche" and used a randomized email to register. :( Yes, I have a summer gig lined up, but it was not through any of the law school facilities. Had to hustle some networking contacts.


If you could do it over again, where would you have gone to school instead?


Honestly? I had to choose between Emory, BU and Fordham. Emory offered me a substantial scholarship, but I chose Fordham because of location. I don't regret choosing based on location, but I do regret paying almost full ticket for it. If I had to do it over again, I would have taken a year off, took LSAT again and gone into a higher ranked school or just Fordham with scholarship. Fordham is not a bad school by any means, the issue is tempering expectations in this hard economy. I think anyone who is in a similar position right now should strongly question how capable they will be of paying $150k in loans WITHOUT BIGLAW, because BIGLAW cannot be relied on.

dante500
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby dante500 » Mon May 11, 2009 2:30 pm

LOL @ people knowing better than the Fordham student who seems to have a decent grasp of reality. Why come to these boards if all you want to do is ignore useful information? Sure, take it with a grain of salt, but at least TAKE it. Slammin' him for allegedly having insider info of some sort... he's a student at the school, as opposed to y'all with a bunch of outdated data on job prospects from when the economy was not in the shit state it is now. Seriously, WTF?

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let/them/eat/cake
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby let/them/eat/cake » Mon May 11, 2009 2:38 pm

no one was slamming him. he quoted some 15% number that seemed to be culled from, well, nothing. so inquiries were made, responses were given, the discussion moves on. we're all a little better for it. the minor miracles of modern technology. gotta love it.

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 2:42 pm

I don't think he was slammed, but instead questioned. By the way, thanks touche/d-bag (can I call you touchebag? :lol: ) for providing your views on the school.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Blindmelon » Mon May 11, 2009 2:46 pm

d-bag wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:
d-bag wrote:
nitsudrx wrote:
Yeah, because if you said that you'd narrow yourself down to 1/500... I'm sure they'd know exactly who you are.

Do you have a summer gig/job lined up?


Whoops, forgot my password to "touche" and used a randomized email to register. :( Yes, I have a summer gig lined up, but it was not through any of the law school facilities. Had to hustle some networking contacts.


If you could do it over again, where would you have gone to school instead?


Honestly? I had to choose between Emory, BU and Fordham. Emory offered me a substantial scholarship, but I chose Fordham because of location. I don't regret choosing based on location, but I do regret paying almost full ticket for it. If I had to do it over again, I would have taken a year off, took LSAT again and gone into a higher ranked school or just Fordham with scholarship. Fordham is not a bad school by any means, the issue is tempering expectations in this hard economy. I think anyone who is in a similar position right now should strongly question how capable they will be of paying $150k in loans WITHOUT BIGLAW, because BIGLAW cannot be relied on.


Is its mostly NY, or do you think most markets are being equally slammed OCI-wise? Would Emory or BU have given you a better shot at biglaw placement merely because they didn't exclusively feed into NYC?

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 2:53 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Is its mostly NY, or do you think most markets are being equally slammed OCI-wise? Would Emory or BU have given you a better shot at biglaw placement merely because they didn't exclusively feed into NYC?


I honestly don't know much about the other markets. Boston market doesn't seem to be as struggling as much as NY, and I have absolutely no clue about Emory's home turf. BU places pretty well, so I think I would be in a better position in the Boston market than I am at the NY market right now. Emory, I'd just be less poor. In either case I would at least be able to say that I go to a T20, not that it really matters in the real world. :)

Bankhead
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 11, 2009 3:06 pm

Hopefully things will improve somewhat by the time current 0L's face OCI.

Hoopster
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Hoopster » Mon May 11, 2009 3:08 pm

Hello, touche/d-bag (sweet! :D ). In case you don't get into biglaw and get stuck with a low-paying law firm or PI position after graduation, doesn't Fordham provide any low-income protection program to help repay your loans?

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 3:19 pm

Hoopster wrote:Hello, touche/d-bag (sweet! :D ). In case you don't get into biglaw and get stuck with a low-paying law firm or PI position after graduation, doesn't Fordham provide any low-income protection program to help repay your loans?


LRAP: http://law.fordham.edu/ihtml/fa-2GradSt ... tml?id=502

I'm personally in a good position, but I'm just trying to caution others as the employment data is not representative of the current economy.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon May 11, 2009 3:23 pm

Dear Touche,

Thank you for visiting with us. Why we've never met you sooner I cannot imagine, as TLS is a wonderful and very welcoming community. I have not met a single Fordham student, alum, applicant or 0L whom I would not want for a classmate. If your statements about the student body are true, I must just have had amazing luck, right? How did I do that?


You state that the economy is terrible, and Fordham has been unable to magically remedy this. You further state that Fordham is not a T14. I am shocked by this information, which is utterly new to me. Shocked!


You have provided some useful information about the school's clinics, and for that, I thank you.Clearly you don't hate Fordham enough to transfer or drop out, so that is something. I'm not sure what you would like the school to do to remedy the situations you described, since it does not seem that Fordham created any of them.


As for the income limit on the LRAP, every school has one, although they vary. Some are as low as ~$40,000. Fordham's limit is generous, especially for a non T14.


I think all of us were aware that OCI will take a hit this year. However, this situation was not caused by Fordham, nor is it unique to the school.

Yours Sincerely,

OperaSoprano,
Fordham 0L and future PI student

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 3:32 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:Dear Fordham Student,

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how the market's problems were created by Fordham, or how you expect the school to instantly solve them.

-says the very proud Fordham 0L and future PI student


Dear OperaSoprano,

Nowhere did I say that I hate Fordham and nowhere did I say that the market's problems were created by Fordham. I am pointing out the reality of the situation, which you, as an extremely strange 0L apparently do not see given that all your information apparently was culled from the website. The OP asked for feedback, which I provided in a very realistic manner without any sugarcoating that you, as a 0L, were probably exposed to. You will likely not see the reality until around November, which is when you will get your first law school grade and wonder if you were cut out for it after all. :)

With all that out of the way, since you're a 0L interested in PI work, I'll make suggestions that you will find of use: apply to Stein Scholars as soon as applications become available before you arrive at the school. Applying as a second semester student is more competitive. Moreover, get involved with FSSF and some of the more useful PIRC organizations. Try to work EXTREMELY hard on your Legal Writing short memo, as you will be submitting the memo to two journals that will take 1Ls (most people fail to realize this): Corporate Law Journal and Environmental Law Journal. Also note that Dispute Resolution Society, which you mentioned prior, takes 1Ls, so take the opportunity to get involved with that.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Blindmelon » Mon May 11, 2009 3:35 pm

Wow OS, that was pretty snarky.

d-bag
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Mon May 11, 2009 3:37 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Wow OS, that was pretty snarky.


0L's wear rose-colored glasses.




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