Attention: Fordham Law Students

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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silenziatori
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby silenziatori » Wed May 13, 2009 5:08 pm


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Detail
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Wed May 13, 2009 7:38 pm

geoanthem wrote:
MrOrange wrote:
geoanthem wrote:Berkeley and Stanford don't probably don't go to NYC in such great numbers to make it worth even noting them (though their students would be more attractive than Fordham grads I'll admit. UCLA and USC probably would not be as appealing as Fordham students just based on how strong the Fordham alumni base is in NYC. I was giving a rough estimate, not specifically stating which exact schools it would place better in NYC then.

So...discounting schools lex didn't mention bumps Fordham to 8th?

Well I think some of the T14, either on the west coast or in strong legal markets already don't place a significant enough number of students in NYC to make it matter so much. I am not saying they aren't more attractive students overall, however.

lol, count with me

1. HLS
2. YLS
3. Penn
4. Mich
5. UVA
6. Duke
7. GULC
8.CLS
9. NYU
10. Cornell

Truth. NY is still the primary jurisdiction for the bar for HLS, YLS, Penn, Mich, UVA, Duke, and GULC... not to mention CLS, NYU, and Cornell... and even GW. So while Fordham is 3rd in the city, they're really 12th as far as schools that feed into NYC.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Wed May 13, 2009 8:25 pm

d-bag wrote:Honestly? I had to choose between Emory, BU and Fordham. Emory offered me a substantial scholarship, but I chose Fordham because of location. I don't regret choosing based on location, but I do regret paying almost full ticket for it. If I had to do it over again, I would have taken a year off, took LSAT again and gone into a higher ranked school or just Fordham with scholarship. Fordham is not a bad school by any means, the issue is tempering expectations in this hard economy. I think anyone who is in a similar position right now should strongly question how capable they will be of paying $150k in loans WITHOUT BIGLAW, because BIGLAW cannot be relied on.

Thank you for your very informative and candid answers. I will likely be dropping all regional schools from my application list, except the ones that have a reputation of offering generous scholarships.

You've mentioned "Fordham with scholarship" several times. However I have yet to find anyone here or on LSN who received a generous scholarship from Fordham. Do you know any current students attending with $$$? If so, and if you had to venture a guess, how do you think Fordham allocates this money? By "numbers" or by "soft" factors?

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pany1985
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby pany1985 » Wed May 13, 2009 8:28 pm

Fordham seems pretty chronically stingy with their money unless you have numbers to get into a T14

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Detail
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Wed May 13, 2009 8:29 pm

pany1985 wrote:Fordham seems pretty chronically stingy with their money unless you have numbers to get into a T14

I have a near perfect LSAT and an above average GPA. My softs though, comparatively, are rather terribad.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Wed May 13, 2009 8:35 pm

Detail wrote:
d-bag wrote:Honestly? I had to choose between Emory, BU and Fordham. Emory offered me a substantial scholarship, but I chose Fordham because of location. I don't regret choosing based on location, but I do regret paying almost full ticket for it. If I had to do it over again, I would have taken a year off, took LSAT again and gone into a higher ranked school or just Fordham with scholarship. Fordham is not a bad school by any means, the issue is tempering expectations in this hard economy. I think anyone who is in a similar position right now should strongly question how capable they will be of paying $150k in loans WITHOUT BIGLAW, because BIGLAW cannot be relied on.

Thank you for your very informative and candid answers. I will likely be dropping all regional schools from my application list, except the ones that have a reputation of offering generous scholarships.

You've mentioned "Fordham with scholarship" several times. However I have yet to find anyone here or on LSN who received a generous scholarship from Fordham. Do you know any current students attending with $$$? If so, and if you had to venture a guess, how do you think Fordham allocates this money? By "numbers" or by "soft" factors?


I believe that Fordham will issue a prospective applicant up to $15k in merit aid, but don't quote me on this. The financial office also has a substantial number of need- and need/merit- based grants that they can award, so if you meet the qualifications, you can get money on top of the initial merit award. This is the stuff you won't see on LSN, as it's something you find out later on after you go through the bulk of the application process. My need/merit grant at Fordham is larger than my initial merit grant, but it would have been nice if my initial merit grant was larger to start with. If you truly have a near-perfect LSAT as you mentioned, then they'd probably give you the full $15,000, but really, there's no reason for you to be applying to regional schools with a near-perfect LSAT anyway.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Blindmelon » Wed May 13, 2009 8:38 pm

15k a year is the most they give purely need-based. Being the token poor kid, thats what I got and they said it was the full amount.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Wed May 13, 2009 8:46 pm

d-bag wrote:but really, there's no reason for you to be applying to regional schools with a near-perfect LSAT anyway.

My GPA is below the median at most T14s, I have no WE, and as mentioned before my softs aren't spectacular. If you look at LSN, there are only 2 somewhat reliable schools for splitters like myself.

Plus I'm pretty sure I'd rather take a half scholarship at a place like GW than most T14s sticker.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Wed May 13, 2009 9:25 pm

Blindmelon wrote:15k a year is the most they give purely need-based. Being the token poor kid, thats what I got and they said it was the full amount.


Yeah, that's what I got + a small merit scholly.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby d-bag » Wed May 13, 2009 9:27 pm

Detail wrote:
d-bag wrote:but really, there's no reason for you to be applying to regional schools with a near-perfect LSAT anyway.

My GPA is below the median at most T14s, I have no WE, and as mentioned before my softs aren't spectacular. If you look at LSN, there are only 2 somewhat reliable schools for splitters like myself.

Plus I'm pretty sure I'd rather take a half scholarship at a place like GW than most T14s sticker.


Well, if you qualify as a token poor kid with a high LSAT, there's probably a good chance of you getting a half-scholly between need and merit grants combined.

legends159
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Thu May 14, 2009 12:37 am

Detail wrote:
d-bag wrote:but really, there's no reason for you to be applying to regional schools with a near-perfect LSAT anyway.

My GPA is below the median at most T14s, I have no WE, and as mentioned before my softs aren't spectacular. If you look at LSN, there are only 2 somewhat reliable schools for splitters like myself.

Plus I'm pretty sure I'd rather take a half scholarship at a place like GW than most T14s sticker.


I got 20K a year. I've seen a few who get 75K total but that's a rare exception. Usually if you've got good numbers you'll get 60K.

If your LSAT is 175+ I wouldn't apply anywhere outside the T14 unless you have a lower than 3.4 GPA

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu May 14, 2009 12:45 am

legends159 wrote:
Detail wrote:
d-bag wrote:but really, there's no reason for you to be applying to regional schools with a near-perfect LSAT anyway.

My GPA is below the median at most T14s, I have no WE, and as mentioned before my softs aren't spectacular. If you look at LSN, there are only 2 somewhat reliable schools for splitters like myself.

Plus I'm pretty sure I'd rather take a half scholarship at a place like GW than most T14s sticker.


I got 20K a year. I've seen a few who get 75K total but that's a rare exception. Usually if you've got good numbers you'll get 60K.

If your LSAT is 175+ I wouldn't apply anywhere outside the T14 unless you have a lower than 3.4 GPA


Legends, you applied to your alma mater? Wouldn't that be a violation of your last statement?

Just giving you a hard time, lol. I'll bet Fordham is hard to leave. :D

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Thu May 14, 2009 12:49 am

well my LSAT was far from a 175+

plus I had to since I was getting pressure from all sides. People here think Fordham is the best law school in the world outside of Harvard Yale and Columbia. They seriously think it's a T5 I am not joking. The LS kids of course know about USNWR.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Thu May 14, 2009 1:15 am

After reading some of these "3Ls taking questions" threads I'm seriously considering only applying to ~2/3 of the T14s, and forking out sticker and/or deferring a year then EDing if need be.

The legal world is so ridiculously cut throat, and doors are abruptly shut at every turn. My belief of "going where I'd be happy" died tonight. :cry:

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Thu May 14, 2009 1:30 am

Detail wrote:The legal world is so ridiculously cut throat, and doors are abruptly shut at every turn. My belief of "going where I'd be happy" died tonight. :cry:


well how else do you think they can justify paying you $160K coming right out of school with no work experience at all? Most kids come out of law school and have no idea how to file a motion or a complaint. Their idea of the court system is from first year civ pro which is all but forgotten and useless anyways. Their secretaries know more law than they do.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu May 14, 2009 1:53 am

legends159 wrote:well my LSAT was far from a 175+

plus I had to since I was getting pressure from all sides. People here think Fordham is the best law school in the world outside of Harvard Yale and Columbia. They seriously think it's a T5 I am not joking. The LS kids of course know about USNWR.


I have no problems whatsoever with the bolded statement. :lol: I think I'm going to fit in perfectly! Plus, my best friend is applying to the social work program. Do you know anything about that? Is it good?

LOL at you fudging your data, though. I won't be upset if you really had 177/3.96. I won't even be surprised. :mrgreen:

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Detail
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Thu May 14, 2009 2:00 am

legends159 wrote:well how else do you think they can justify paying you $160K coming right out of school with no work experience at all? Most kids come out of law school and have no idea how to file a motion or a complaint. Their idea of the court system is from first year civ pro which is all but forgotten and useless anyways. Their secretaries know more law than they do.

Well yes, but to me the perplexing question is why firms value prestige far more than grades. Based on numerous anecdotal evidence gathered from people in the know(eg NOT 0Ls) from here and other sites, it appears that a bottom 25% CLS/NYU kid will be valued head and shoulder above a top 10% kid at Fordham. However I would argue that the top 10% Fordham kid is clearly more hard working, which would translate into more productivity for the firm.

An even bigger issue of concern is that the gap between schools have only grown larger ITE, as firms try to keep connections to the top schools open while drastically cutting back recruitment. However this economy has made everyone vulnerable, as I've came across numerous stories of no-offers for HSCCN students. I would not want to be a member of the Class of '10 or a no-offered '09-er right now. Deferring a year and then attending the same school may actually be financially beneficial for most people.

Yale seems to be the only school untouched so far. :|

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pany1985
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby pany1985 » Thu May 14, 2009 2:03 am

They probably value prestige over grades just because they can tell their clients a Harvard/Columbia/whatever graduate is on their case rather than a Fordham grad. They don't need to tell them the person's class rank. It just looks better on the firm website.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Thu May 14, 2009 2:08 am

Detail wrote:
legends159 wrote:
Well yes, but to me the perplexing question is why firms value prestige far more than grades. Based on numerous anecdotal evidence gathered from people in the know(eg NOT 0Ls) from here and other sites, it appears that a bottom 25% CLS/NYU kid will be valued head and shoulder above a top 10% kid at Fordham. However I would argue that the top 10% Fordham kid is clearly more hard working, which would translate into more productivity for the firm.

An even bigger issue of concern is that the gap between schools have only grown larger ITE, as firms try to keep connections to the top schools open while drastically cutting back recruitment. However this economy has made everyone vulnerable, as I've came across numerous stories of no-offers for HSCCN students. I would not want to be a member of the Class of '10 or a no-offered '09-er right now. Deferring a year and then attending the same school may actually be financially beneficial for most people.

Yale seems to be the only school untouched so far. :|


First bold: My guess is exaggerations based on alumni pride or ignorance. I've spoken to Fordham grads. Career services gives you a career sheet with the tier of firms you can get with what grades. Top 10% can get V10 easy, even ITE. Bottom 25% CLS/NYU won't.

Second bold: Could be rumors that spread out of control. One person gets no-offered b/c they do something stupid and all of a sudden to bash the firm s/he says that the firm is in the gutter and that's why s/he was no-offered. When in reality s/he probably got drunk and threw up in front of everyone and that's why.

Do you know how risky it is for firms to no offer someone esp from the aforementioned schools? They would much rather hire fewer SA than no-offer someone. Getting a no-offer is the career killer so firms that give it automatically get blackballed and no one who is not desperate will pick them. These kids have multiple offers and it's the firm's job not to screw it up so that they're left with the people no one else wants.

During SA you own the firm. Their reputation lies in your hands. There are hundred of firms that all sound, look and most importantly, pay the same. If suddenly one firm gets the rep of being "the one that no-offers" people cause they're broke then no one who has options will pick them. That cuts off top talent and some hiring partner's career is jeopardized b/c of that. Think about the people who work for the firms, not just the firms as entities in and of themselves.
Last edited by legends159 on Thu May 14, 2009 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Thu May 14, 2009 2:09 am

pany1985 wrote:They probably value prestige over grades just because they can tell their clients a Harvard/Columbia/whatever graduate is on their case rather than a Fordham grad. They don't need to tell them the person's class rank. It just looks better on the firm website.



That is true but they also want competent lawyers who won't screw up these client's cases either. Who gets shitted on when client's get pissed? Partners. What happens to their careers when they get shitted on constantly, they don't make equity partner or their career suddenly gets stagnant and all the good cases get taken from them.

low grades will always give the impression, no matter what field or what pedigree, that one is incompetent, lazy or just not smart enough.

BTW: If anyone here thinks you're fucked because you go to Fordham then you've really deluded yourself with the whole TLS T14 or bust mentality. Or more recently, the T6 or bust mentality. My fordham LS 1L and 2L friends are not sweating right now...well the 1Ls are but that's cause they're doing writing competitions.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Thu May 14, 2009 2:22 am

Career services gives you a career sheet with the tier of firms you can get with what grades.

Were you looking at career sheets with data from 08 or 09? I would imagine that these would be radically different.

Second bold: Could be rumors that spread out of control. One person gets no-offered b/c they do something stupid and all of a sudden to bash the firm s/he says that they're in the gutter and that's why s/he was no-offered. When in reality s/he probably got drunk and threw up in front of everyone and that's why.

Many of 3Ls specifically mentioned that people who picked "smaller biglaw" were getting no-offered through no fault of their own.

Do you know how risky it is for firms to no offer someone esp from the aforementioned schools? They would much rather hire fewer SA than no-offer someone. Getting a no-offer is the career killer so firms that give it automatically get blackballed and no one who is not desperate will pick them. These kids have multiple offers and it's the firm's job not to screw it up so that they're left with the people no one else wants.

This was probably true in the boom boom years, but I think you're underestimating the impact of the economic collapse. I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, and I could only relay the gist of what I've read. Try searching for information posted by '09 and '10-ers and decide for yourself.

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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby legends159 » Thu May 14, 2009 2:35 am

Do what's best for you. Your plan sounds great and I wish everyone was as mature as you. We'd have fewer people pissing their money away at horrible law schools.

But if you do end up at Fordham, just don't killself :lol:

that's bad PR that not even OS can fix

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Detail
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby Detail » Thu May 14, 2009 2:39 am

legends159 wrote:Do what's best for you. Your plan sounds great and I wish everyone was as mature as you. We'd have fewer people pissing their money away at horrible law schools.

But if you do end up at Fordham, just don't killself :lol:

that's bad PR that not even OS can fix

Based on numbers alone I'm hoping to squeeze out one CCN, or at least GULC. Or maybe I'll be that red dot in the middle. :?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu May 14, 2009 2:41 am

legends159 wrote:
pany1985 wrote:They probably value prestige over grades just because they can tell their clients a Harvard/Columbia/whatever graduate is on their case rather than a Fordham grad. They don't need to tell them the person's class rank. It just looks better on the firm website.



That is true but they also want competent lawyers who won't screw up these client's cases either. Who gets shitted on when client's get pissed? Partners. What happens to their careers when they get shitted on constantly, they don't make equity partner or their career suddenly gets stagnant and all the good cases get taken from them.

low grades will always give the impression, no matter what field or what pedigree, that one is incompetent, lazy or just not smart enough.

BTW: If anyone here thinks you're fucked because you go to Fordham then you've really deluded yourself with the whole TLS T14 or bust mentality. Or more recently, the T6 or bust mentality. My fordham LS 1L and 2L friends are not sweating right now...well the 1Ls are but that's cause they're doing writing competitions.


Legends, I love you so much. :D :D

I seriously hope we run into one another before you head to the university located across the street from my high school. It's almost like we'll be trading stomping grounds.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attention: Fordham Law Students

Postby OperaSoprano » Thu May 14, 2009 2:46 am

legends159 wrote:Do what's best for you. Your plan sounds great and I wish everyone was as mature as you. We'd have fewer people pissing their money away at horrible law schools.

But if you do end up at Fordham, just don't killself :lol:

that's bad PR that not even OS can fix


You underestimate my powers, of, um, just don't killself, Detail, k? We would miss you, and you'd totally interfere with my plans to make Fordham a T10 before that new building is finished!




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