Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

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duckfan00
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Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby duckfan00 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:42 am

Should he be on the faculty of one of our best laws school instructing students how to interpret rule of law and condoning the executive branch's decision to torture detainees????

iamlife1001
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby iamlife1001 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:47 am

duckfan00 wrote:Should he be on the faculty of one of our best laws school instructing students how to interpret rule of law and condoning the executive branch's decision to torture detainees????


if you are seeking a yes or no answer, you should only ask one question.

and do you think we should fire all capable people with whom we do not agree? if not, where would you draw the line

Go_Cardinals
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby Go_Cardinals » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:51 am

I can say this as someone who is going to Berkeley next year, and who happens to disagree with Yoo on about everything...

that I would like nothing more than to take a class with him. I may disagree with him, but he is an academic - I respect him despite my fervent opposition to his beliefs. It goes without question that he is scarry smart.

iamlife1001
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby iamlife1001 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:58 am

Go_Cardinals wrote:I can say this as someone who is going to Berkeley next year, and who happens to disagree with Yoo on about everything...

that I would like nothing more than to take a class with him. I may disagree with him, but he is an academic - I respect him despite my fervent opposition to his beliefs. It goes without question that he is scarry smart.



+1

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singularity
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby singularity » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:18 am

Go_Cardinals wrote: It goes without question that he is scarry smart.



Weak sauce compared to Dr. Aribert Heim. He was actually able to torture people. Yoo is basically impotent in his desires so far.

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badlydrawn
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby badlydrawn » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:23 am

singularity wrote:
Go_Cardinals wrote: It goes without question that he is scarry smart.



Weak sauce compared to Dr. Aribert Heim. He was actually able to torture people. Yoo is basically impotent in his desires so far.


Umm... no. While in the Bush administration's Office of Legal Counsel, Yoo provided the legal justifications for brutality and torture toward detainees. He was practicing the law--not performing acts of perverted intellectual masturbation in the confines of an academic setting.
Last edited by badlydrawn on Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

trojans09
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby trojans09 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:35 am

Future Boalt student as well, the guy is an absolute genius. By supporting firing him, you are directly opposing 1st amendment free speech. If you are unwilling to respect the 1st amendment, maybe you should be the one not attending law school.

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Unemployed
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby Unemployed » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:36 am

I'm not going to Berkeley, but I heard from credible sources (more than one current student) that he is actually a very good teacher.

sbalive
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby sbalive » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:41 am

trojans09 wrote:Future Boalt student as well, the guy is an absolute genius. By supporting firing him, you are directly opposing 1st amendment free speech. If you are unwilling to respect the 1st amendment, maybe you should be the one not attending law school.


Okay, I sort of agreed with the "not firing" argument, since that seemed to go against the principle of tenure. But this silly comment got me riled up enough to post.

The issue is not first amendment rights at all. It's not like John Yoo was writing op-eds in the San Francisco Chronicle advocating waterboarding, and that's what people are upset about. It's the professional work that he actually did. Of course, it's not black and white - he wasn't acting as a UC Professor, for example. Also, it's not obvious that what he did was illegal or even professionally unethical.

In general, I believe that if it's found that a professor in a professional school does something that violates the ethics of that profession - even if it's legal - that should be grounds for penalties including being fired if the violation was severe.

I'm conflicted about this case - I think what Yoo did was heinous - I'd really like to see that kind of behavior deemed professionally unethical. But, if it isn't, then I reluctantly agree that he should be protected by tenure.

Also, just because someone's a great teacher isn't enough of a reason to keep them tenured and on staff. Being a professor is about a lot more than just teaching.
Last edited by sbalive on Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

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badfish
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby badfish » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:45 am

Yoo sucks as a human being but Berkeley definitely is better for having him. One of those mysteries of life, I suppose.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:48 am

sbalive wrote:
trojans09 wrote:Future Boalt student as well, the guy is an absolute genius. By supporting firing him, you are directly opposing 1st amendment free speech. If you are unwilling to respect the 1st amendment, maybe you should be the one not attending law school.


Okay, I sort of agreed with the "not firing" argument, since that seemed to go against the principle of tenure. But this silly comment got me riled up enough to post.

The issue is not first amendment rights at all. It's not like John Yoo was writing op-eds in the San Francisco Chronicle advocating waterboarding, and that's what people are upset about. It's the professional work that he actually did. Of course, it's not black and white - he wasn't acting as a UC Professor, for example. Also, it's not obvious that what he did was illegal or even professionally unethical.

In general, I believe that if it's found that a professor in a professional school does something that violates the ethics of that profession - even if it's legal - that should be grounds for penalties including being fired if the violation was severe.

I'm conflicted about this case - I think what Yoo did was heinous - I'd really like to see that kind of behavior deemed professionally unethical. But, if it isn't, then I reluctantly agree that he should be protected by tenure.

Also, just because someone's a great teacher isn't enough of a reason to keep them tenured and on staff. Being a professor is about a lot more than just teaching.



Thank you for your overall sense of common sense.

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badlydrawn
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby badlydrawn » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:49 am

Let's change the question: should he be disbarred (at least investigated with the possibility of being disbarred) and still be allowed to teach?
Last edited by badlydrawn on Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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singularity
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby singularity » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:51 am

"Hate the game, not the player"

My bad. I just realized I'm hating the player.

Yoo must be brilliant.

2 + 2 = 5

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:09 pm

badlydrawn wrote:
singularity wrote:
Go_Cardinals wrote: It goes without question that he is scarry smart.



Weak sauce compared to Dr. Aribert Heim. He was actually able to torture people. Yoo is basically impotent in his desires so far.


Umm... no. While in the Bush administration's Office of Legal Counsel, Yoo provided the legal justifications for brutality and torture toward detainees. He was practicing the law--not performing acts of perverted intellectual masturbation in the confines of an academic setting.


On this one, we are in perfect accord.

Not a Boalt student, obviously, but I could not in good conscience take a class with John Yoo. I don't think Berkeley should fire him. I think he should resign.

Esc
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby Esc » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:20 pm

Berkeley should fire him and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He willingly and knowingly broke the law. He needs to, at the very least, go to jail.

Yoo is one of the reasons I did not consider going to Berkeley. I would not pay money to a school that would employ such a man.

aer
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby aer » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:27 pm

trojans09 wrote:Future Boalt student as well, the guy is an absolute genius. By supporting firing him, you are directly opposing 1st amendment free speech. If you are unwilling to respect the 1st amendment, maybe you should be the one not attending law school.


Committing malpractice is not covered under the first amendment. :roll:

CaptainDirtyBird
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby CaptainDirtyBird » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:30 pm

So this one time Tony Soprano told his guys to whack this guy. And his guys did it. And then when the government tried to arrest him, his case was dismissed because of the first amendment says you can do anything to chill speech. Especially the kind that results in physical harm to others cause that's what people come to America for.

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wrigley
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby wrigley » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:49 pm


Oblomov
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby Oblomov » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:52 pm

Probably disbarred, potentially prosecuted. Still allowed to teach.

awesomepossum
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby awesomepossum » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:54 pm

a strange fact of top law schools. they're willing to do a bit of "affirmative action" to get right wing crazies on their faculty ... they're like the URMs of the legal academia world.

Oblomov
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby Oblomov » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:55 pm

wrigley wrote:crazy smart...like a fox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GT-BZvhrw



Hahahha. "I'm not going to get into semantical games with you."

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singularity
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby singularity » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:56 pm

Esc wrote:Berkeley should fire him and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He willingly and knowingly broke the law. He needs to, at the very least, go to jail.



Just as sending Madoff to jail won't stop people from creating Ponzi schemes in the future, I doubt punishing Yoo will change anything. Yoo is in the best position to affect change, but he lacks a spine necessary for leadership.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby dextermorgan » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:09 pm

If he ends up disbarred he should be fired. Otherwise, he should be allowed to continue to teach. I think Justice Thomas is a nutcase, but he has an interesting legal opinion. Same with Yoo.

Oblomov
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby Oblomov » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:10 pm

singularity wrote:mJust as sending Madoff to jail won't stop people from creating Ponzi schemes in the future, I doubt punishing Yoo will change anything.


Some people hold this crazy opinion that someone should be punished for his illegal acts regardless of the ability to deter others. You know, 'cause breaking the law is wrong.

aer
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Re: Should Berkeley Fire John Yoo???

Postby aer » Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:11 pm

singularity wrote:
Esc wrote:Berkeley should fire him and he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. He willingly and knowingly broke the law. He needs to, at the very least, go to jail.



Just as sending Madoff to jail won't stop people from creating Ponzi schemes in the future, I doubt punishing Yoo will change anything. Yoo is in the best position to affect change, but he lacks a spine necessary for leadership.


Not punishing him could change things though. If society says that this sort of behavior is acceptable by having there be no repercussions there is no reason for others to not repeat the actions.




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