Columbia 1L Taking Questions (Class of '11) Forum

[USAIRS]

...I'm not trying to make any broader point about the real world. I personally think $10,000 is a fair bit of money that I certainly don't have growing on a tree in the back yard. I'm merely challenging the assertion that someone who has a fair amount of contacts (or should have in order to make a general claim about people in business, biglaw, etc.) in a well paying field does not know a single person or two who thinks that $10,000 is a big deal. Lets also not kid ourselves, $10,000 does not buy what it used to buy.

(And, yes, I have talked to a few of these "mythical" people in the past 6 months.)

edit: I'm sure there are plenty of millionaires in biglaw and business. And if you know enough people in these two industries, you should know at least one. That is essentially my point.

I know lots of millionaires, and certainly many people who drop 10k on stupid crap that I would never buy, but none who would say 10k is an amount that you would just throw away. Rather, it is a meaningful and significant amount of money. None of them, or their families, became wealthy by thinking 10k was not a big deal, and they certainly think it is a big deal when they freeze our raises and cut our bonuses. I'm sure these people exist, e.g. paris hilton, so I'll concede the point, but you seem to be trying to make this point for no reason other than to be a nuisance, because people here seem to be discussing taking out loans or having to consider working for a living.

This kind of nonsense is why I, and other grads, don't post on these sites much. Who wants to fight with 0Ls on lame points like this.

[gbz]

I think you just made my point. If they drop 10k on stupid crap, I think that trivializes the amount of money 10k means and that it isn't a big deal. Of course it matters, but clearly not that much. Or at least not to the point that it would influence which school that person would choose.

[UnknownElementX]

It seems odd to me that so many people are talking about whether or not 10k is a meaningful amount of money. That seems a completely separate and subjective question which does not directly bear upon the issue at hand, which seems to be whether the prestige and opportunity difference in school options is worth the 10k of debt. That is a much different question. you can say that without a doubt 10k is valuable and still say that your inevitable gain from prestige will be worth more than 10K over the long haul. That is the much more pertinent point.

[Jay Obee]

I think you just made my point. If they drop 10k on stupid crap, I think that trivializes the amount of money 10k means and that it isn't a big deal. Of course it matters, but clearly not that much. Or at least not to the point that it would influence which school that person would choose.

I think his point is that you like to argue about stupid crap that, as the poster above stated, doesn't go to anything anyone is talking about. The OP said that you won't care about a few thousand in loans when you are making money as a graduate, he is a graduate who is paying loans and disagreed. You want to argue about whether there are super-rich people out there who think 10k is trivial. He conceded that because it doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand-whether people taking out loans care about the difference after graduation. We all get your point, but its one just doesn't matter for the purpose of choosing between two schools like columbia and chicago, with equal job prospects and different loans at the end of the day. Go start another thread about the dilemmas of choosing schools for the uber-rich.

Again, please pm me the names of these friends of yours who wouldn't mind through ten grand my way, because it is so trivial. I only need about 10 of them. Thanks.

[M51]

It seems odd to me that so many people are talking about whether or not 10k is a meaningful amount of money. That seems a completely separate and subjective question which does not directly bear upon the issue at hand, which seems to be whether the prestige and opportunity difference in school options is worth the 10k of debt. That is a much different question. you can say that without a doubt 10k is valuable and still say that your inevitable gain from prestige will be worth more than 10K over the long haul. That is the much more pertinent point.

Exactly.

Can we move this debate back to one of the many Chicago$ v CLS v NYU threads in the other forums? This post should really be CLS students answering questions about CLS... not a debate as to how much each forum member perceives 10k to be worth subjectively.

I responded to Lem in a PM address all the subsequent posts. It's his/her personal decision. If I posted a defense here, it'd just invite more debate. Everyone, stop arguing about millionaires and who has how many friends who qualify. This is not the thread for that.

[spondee]

Thanks (again) for answering questions.

Could you name some of the professors who have reputations for being great teachers? It's so easy to research the big names measured by scholarly work, but much harder to find the great teachers. In my grad school, often, these two were not the same, and the impact of the great teachers on their students was immeasurable. I'd love to be able to research some of them, sit in on their classes before deciding, etc.

If it's uncouth to name names on a public board, a PM would be great, too. Thanks again.

[Lem37]

It seems odd to me that so many people are talking about whether or not 10k is a meaningful amount of money. That seems a completely separate and subjective question which does not directly bear upon the issue at hand, which seems to be whether the prestige and opportunity difference in school options is worth the 10k of debt. That is a much different question. you can say that without a doubt 10k is valuable and still say that your inevitable gain from prestige will be worth more than 10K over the long haul. That is the much more pertinent point.

Exactly.

Can we move this debate back to one of the many Chicago$ v CLS v NYU threads in the other forums? This post should really be CLS students answering questions about CLS... not a debate as to how much each forum member perceives 10k to be worth subjectively.

I responded to Lem in a PM address all the subsequent posts. It's his/her personal decision. If I posted a defense here, it'd just invite more debate. Everyone, stop arguing about millionaires and who has how many friends who qualify. This is not the thread for that.

Okay, but my original post was asking whether the Columbia 1Ls were in a similar predicament (T14 school w/$$ vs. CLS) and why they chose Columbia over that school. I don't know where everything else came from, but my question can only be answered by CLS students (not 0Ls like myself bickering about money), so.

[daisyduck]

Thanks (again) for answering questions.

Could you name some of the professors who have reputations for being great teachers? It's so easy to research the big names measured by scholarly work, but much harder to find the great teachers. In my grad school, often, these two were not the same, and the impact of the great teachers on their students was immeasurable. I'd love to be able to research some of them, sit in on their classes before deciding, etc.

If it's uncouth to name names on a public board, a PM would be great, too. Thanks again.

Bump.
I'm tired of "world renowned" professors who are famous for their research but don't give a crap about teaching.
I'd actually like to get my (loan) money's worth by learning from real teachers.

[NewHere]

OK, but the answer to this is going to vary a lot from student to student. Not only because different people like different teachers, but also because it's impossible to 'sample' all teachers CLS has in only three years. (I've had something like 15-20 professors so far. Out of a total of 100+ professors at CLS, this may or may not overlap with the professors that M51 has seen.)

Anyway, great professors in my humble opinion: Philip Bobbitt, Robert Ferguson, Ben Liebman.

[Skadden Stairs]

Do people who get the apartment shares (with strangers, presumably) usually end up satisfied or wishing they had splurged on a studio/1BR?

(Also, I'm assuming and hoping that apartment shares are mixed gender, as I don't think I could manage to live with 2-3 other girls.)

[Lem37]

Do people who get the apartment shares (with strangers, presumably) usually end up satisfied or wishing they had splurged on a studio/1BR?

(Also, I'm assuming and hoping that apartment shares are mixed gender, as I don't think I could manage to live with 2-3 other girls.)

+1. I'm curious about this as well, since it seems more likely I'll end up in a share.

Although the girl's I've lived with successfully in the past are, oddly enough, tomboys like myself who prefer the company of boys.

[shuchong]

Can you tell us more about Ben Liebman? I'm trying to decide between Columbia with the Hamilton and Yale, and I'm interested in Chinese Law. Yale doesn't have a prof dedicated to studying Chinese Law, and if I could have Prof. Liebman as my Hamilton mentor, that might make Columbia a better fit for me.

Thanks!

[frank_the_tank]

aww lex you want to live with me..that is cute.



but actually...I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the apartment shares are not co-ed.

[NewHere]

Can you tell us more about Ben Liebman?

Wonderful professor. Kind and interested in his students, he always makes time to talk to you. I like the way he conducts his classes (small sections), with a lot of discussion. He creates a very informal atmosphere where everyone is encouraged to participate, and yet he manages to keep the discussion moving forward.

It may be relevant to you that he is very active in organizing the Chinese community at the law school. He and his institute organize a lot of activities that are open to everyone at the school (lectures by Chinese guests, etc.), but I get the impression that he also actively recruits Chinese LL.M. and JD students and involves them in his work and organizes get-togethers.

Could you meet with him before making the CLS/YLS decision, shuchong? If you send him an e-mail he could probably talk to you, by phone/e-mail or in person. (I know people who have done this.)

Do people who get the apartment shares (with strangers, presumably) usually end up satisfied or wishing they had splurged on a studio/1BR?

(Also, I'm assuming and hoping that apartment shares are mixed gender, as I don't think I could manage to live with 2-3 other girls.)

I'm in an apartment share. It's worth it. I had lived on my own for a few years before coming to law school and I wasn't keen on moving in with roommates again, but it worked out fine. There are advantages to having classmates at home to talk to. In my opinion it's worth it, because most studios/1BR are just a LOT more expensive. I don't know anyone who is in an apartment share and hating it. In fact the only person I know who moved between shares and singles is one of my current roommates: she moved from a 1BR to an apartment share after her 1L year. At her request. Go figure.

The vast majority of apartment shares are NOT mixed gender, although you can state your preferences on the application form. My apartment is mixed now (because we, as a mixed group, asked to move in together), but we all had to sign an agreement that we were OK with our apartment becoming mixed.

[facker09]

Hmmm, I would love mixed gender housing if only for cleaner living environment.

For current students:

What do you think is probably the most optimal apartment share size? I've been living in a single arrangement for awhile, and I was thinking about 2 bedroom share. But if 3 bedroom share is significantly better (say better location, size, and/or whatever), I don't think I would have a problem with that.

Thanks a lot in advance!

[M51]

If you specifically request mixed gender, they'll do their best to give it to you. Your other option is to find someone (or two) you're cool with beforehand and request to live together.

As for professors, CLS has a great (and mandatory) teacher review on LawNet. They crunch a lot of stats and list all the comments by students. It's really helpful in figuring out which professors are great teachers. You can tailor your course selection to only those classes, to avoid the few boring profs. However, this won't really be all that useful first year except for your 1L elective since you don't get to pick (or transfer) classes until 2L year.

Bobbit. Hemphill. Morrison for contracts. I've been really really impressed by the teaching quality of 6/8 professors so far. I thought law school professors would be stuffy and boring... it's not like that at all.

[yqsong]

OK, but the answer to this is going to vary a lot from student to student. Not only because different people like different teachers, but also because it's impossible to 'sample' all teachers CLS has in only three years. (I've had something like 15-20 professors so far. Out of a total of 100+ professors at CLS, this may or may not overlap with the professors that M51 has seen.)

Anyway, great professors in my humble opinion: Philip Bobbitt, Robert Ferguson, Ben Liebman.

haha..funny..maybe this is why CLS let all of them to participate in ASP, Ferguson and liebman conducted mock classes and Bobbitt did a special talk...

[06132010]

Does Columbia have a gym(gyms?)? If so, how is it? Is it always really crowded like the one at my UG school? Is there a nearby off-campus gym that any current students would recommend?

[NewHere]

Does Columbia have a gym(gyms?)? If so, how is it?

There is a gym. People who come from schools with great gyms say it's not that great. I can't really compare. It's okay, although not the best gym you'll have ever seen. (It has machines of all sorts, a running track, a swimming pool, mats, courts, etc. And classes.)

No idea about outside gyms, I always go to the Columbia gym, since it's free.

[06132010]

Does Columbia have a gym(gyms?)? If so, how is it?

There is a gym. People who come from schools with great gyms say it's not that great. I can't really compare. It's okay, although not the best gym you'll have ever seen. (It has machines of all sorts, a running track, a swimming pool, mats, courts, etc. And classes.)

No idea about outside gyms, I always go to the Columbia gym, since it's free.

Thanks. I just really need a treadmill. That's great that it's free. Cornell charges us ~90/semester.

[daisyduck]

Thanks. I just really need a treadmill. That's great that it's free. Cornell charges us ~90/semester.

Blasphemy! With Riverside Park and Central Park within blocks, why would you imitate a hamster?!
lol just kidding, i like running on the treadmill too.

[06132010]

haha. I always feel weird running outside/I don't like pedestrians watching me run. Ithaca is also way too hilly. Long Island is too full of cars and douchebags. Maybe I'll give Central Park a try next year before it gets too cold lol.

[paranoidjet]

I'd like to pose a question to the Columbia Law representation here.

I've heard many times that law school is a lot like high school in terms of gossip and tomfoolery and whatnot. That's all well and good, but I'm wondering how pervasive that really is. I'm a grown man with a small young family and I'm looking to get a professional education, so I'd really like to avoid the fallout associated with cliques and heartbreak and such. At the same time though I'd like to actually make friends and meet people, so I guess my query is this: is there a happy medium between being the lonely guy nobody knows and going out with everyone to the bar four nights a week? I'd rather avoid the former but I'm sure I won't be able to make the time comittment of the latter. At Columbia, would this make me doomed to be an outcast?

[NewHere]

is there a happy medium between being the lonely guy nobody knows and going out with everyone to the bar four nights a week? I'd rather avoid the former but I'm sure I won't be able to make the time comittment of the latter. At Columbia, would this make me doomed to be an outcast?

Sure, it all depends with whom you choose to hang out. As a 'grown man with a small young family' no doubt you have enough experience in life to know that you don't have to go out every night to be cool, and that you don't have to hang out with people you don't like.

I'm a bit older than the average student too. I go out with law-school friends maybe once a week (not at all during exam time, and maybe a bit more often in quiet periods). It works out fine. I know there are students who don't go out at all during the semester (saying they are in 'study mode'), but do meet up during weekends to do fun stuff. Others are more passionate about going out and do so four times a week.

You'll be fine.

[Anonymous0L]

Is anyone here passing up on Hamilton for HYS?