Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

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brinicolec
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Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby brinicolec » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:14 pm

I'm just wondering if anyone who was teetering between public interest work or BL (for whatever reason) had a moment in law school where you ended up saying, "AHA! I don't want to do x, I want to do y." Basically, I'm wondering if I can expect law school to help me make this decision or if this is something I'm going to continue to feel conflicted about forever. Lol

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby UVA2B » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:22 pm

Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby NoDayButToday » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:28 pm

.
Last edited by NoDayButToday on Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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star fox
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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby star fox » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:48 am

UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.

Those are not the people who are committed to PI. Those are the "I think I wanna do PI maybe?" people. The committed PI people are not going to waste a summer doing BigLaw just to make $30K and really hurting their PI credentials that they should be building.

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brinicolec
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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby brinicolec » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:32 am

star fox wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.

Those are not the people who are committed to PI. Those are the "I think I wanna do PI maybe?" people. The committed PI people are not going to waste a summer doing BigLaw just to make $30K and really hurting their PI credentials that they should be building.



I think what they were saying is that those who are "committed" (but not really) will go through OCI and then that's kind of when they make that decision whereas those who are absolutely committed won't even go through OCI at all. . . or at least that's how I read it lol

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brinicolec
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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby brinicolec » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:34 am

NoDayButToday wrote:Yes.

I came in to law school believing I likely wanted to do criminal defense or prison advocacy / punishment reform. I was really resentful, though, when I started applying for 1L summer positions and learned that any PI job I took would be totally unpaid. Financially--and self-esteem-wise--I thought about it and decided I could handle low-paid, but could not do unpaid. It was just the principle of the thing.

I think I felt compelled to do BL, financially, but also in terms of securing a job in my desired region, it seemed like the easiest path. I worked both summers in a regional big law firm that had offices in my desired area. I enjoyed my first summer. 2L year I threw myself into prison advocacy work. When I returned to the firm the second summer, I found I enjoyed the people, but not the work and had a really hard time motivating myself. I knew I had my answer--if I was struggling during a summer associate position where life was pretty good, I knew I was going to be unhappy giving any more time to it. I even considered a few weeks into the summer just leaving. About halfway through the summer, I started dropping hints that I wasn't going to take an offer, and then when they called to confirm whether I wanted to be considered for one, I thanked them and told them, no, and immediately started looking for public interest jobs.



Interesting. Thanks for sharing! So you kind of were leaning towards BL because of $$$ but realized that you found PI work more interesting/fulfilling and found that fulfillment to be worth the lower salary?

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby UVA2B » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:06 am

brinicolec wrote:
star fox wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.

Those are not the people who are committed to PI. Those are the "I think I wanna do PI maybe?" people. The committed PI people are not going to waste a summer doing BigLaw just to make $30K and really hurting their PI credentials that they should be building.



I think what they were saying is that those who are "committed" (but not really) will go through OCI and then that's kind of when they make that decision whereas those who are absolutely committed won't even go through OCI at all. . . or at least that's how I read it lol


This. Sarcastic quotation marks aren't clear enough I suppose.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby zot1 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:15 am

What is it that draws you and concerns you about each?

Perhaps you might have some misconceptions about either.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby stoopkid13 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:00 am

UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.


You don't think people summer in BigLaw as a 2L, but walk away from their offer to do PI after graduating? I would have thought the real test is walking away from the full-time offer in the fall of 3L, not 2L.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby guynourmin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:12 am

stoopkid13 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.


You don't think people summer in BigLaw as a 2L, but walk away from their offer to do PI after graduating? I would have thought the real test is walking away from the full-time offer in the fall of 3L, not 2L.


it's what star fox said above -- does summering in BL seriously disadvantage you in PI hiring? I would think it would, right?

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:14 am

guybourdin wrote:
stoopkid13 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.


You don't think people summer in BigLaw as a 2L, but walk away from their offer to do PI after graduating? I would have thought the real test is walking away from the full-time offer in the fall of 3L, not 2L.


it's what star fox said above -- does summering in BL seriously disadvantage you in PI hiring? I would think it would, right?


idk one of the 3L PI panelists at Chicago summered in BL and is going to SPLC after graduation.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby guynourmin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:22 am

Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
stoopkid13 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.


You don't think people summer in BigLaw as a 2L, but walk away from their offer to do PI after graduating? I would have thought the real test is walking away from the full-time offer in the fall of 3L, not 2L.


it's what star fox said above -- does summering in BL seriously disadvantage you in PI hiring? I would think it would, right?


idk one of the 3L PI panelists at Chicago summered in BL and is going to SPLC after graduation.


that doesn't speak to whether or not they were disadvantaged in the hiring process, though. I'm sure they were quite impressive and could get past those disadvantages (if they existed), but the question remains. appreciate the data point, though!
Last edited by guynourmin on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:23 am

i only know 1 person who didn't go through OCI bc of of her commitment to PI.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby Anon.y.mousse. » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:20 pm

guybourdin wrote:
Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
stoopkid13 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.


You don't think people summer in BigLaw as a 2L, but walk away from their offer to do PI after graduating? I would have thought the real test is walking away from the full-time offer in the fall of 3L, not 2L.


it's what star fox said above -- does summering in BL seriously disadvantage you in PI hiring? I would think it would, right?


idk one of the 3L PI panelists at Chicago summered in BL and is going to SPLC after graduation.


that doesn't speak to whether or not they were disadvantaged in the hiring process, though. I'm sure they were quite impressive and could get past those disadvantages (if they existed), but the question remains. appreciate the data point, though!


oh yeah i'm sure it's not the norm, I thought it was super surprising! I would guess more common for gov interested people to do 2L BL summer positions than direct-client services PI people which would typically need a higher demonstration of commitment/need to form relationships for PI orgs to host them for fellowships, etc.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby guynourmin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:27 pm

Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
Anon.y.mousse. wrote:
guybourdin wrote:
stoopkid13 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Haven't gone through OCI yet, but every impression I've gotten is those "committed" to PI will go through OCI just to cover the bases, and when they have offers in hand, that's the real test. Some will not participate in OCI at all, and those aren't teetering at all. But for those still undecided, they see that shiny offer of employment in the fall of 2L and that tips the scales one way or another.

Law school classes will do nothing to help you make this choice. Other programming will help you decide a little bit, but still not definitively. The real decisions are made when you're forced to commit to summer employment after 1L IME.


You don't think people summer in BigLaw as a 2L, but walk away from their offer to do PI after graduating? I would have thought the real test is walking away from the full-time offer in the fall of 3L, not 2L.


it's what star fox said above -- does summering in BL seriously disadvantage you in PI hiring? I would think it would, right?


idk one of the 3L PI panelists at Chicago summered in BL and is going to SPLC after graduation.


that doesn't speak to whether or not they were disadvantaged in the hiring process, though. I'm sure they were quite impressive and could get past those disadvantages (if they existed), but the question remains. appreciate the data point, though!


oh yeah i'm sure it's not the norm, I thought it was super surprising! I would guess more common for gov interested people to do 2L BL summer positions than direct-client services PI people which would typically need a higher demonstration of commitment/need to form relationships for PI orgs to host them for fellowships, etc.


In my experience, that's the takeaway from all the people we meet at ASWs: but what do us normals do with our degree? Pretty sure the chances of me going straight to the ACLU are pretty low

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby zot1 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:44 pm

You will most likely be against the odds. Rarely people mention whether they have an offer or not waiting so it's easier to assume that you don't have one. Even if they say otherwise, attorneys who didn't get paid 2L summer are likely to be biased for applicants who know the struggle. However, if you are the right fit, qualify otherwise, then you might still make it.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby tomwatts » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:12 pm

For me, the "aha" moment was at the end of a summer that I split between biglaw and an affirmative litigation unit in a government office (doing essentially consumer protection work). After 8 weeks at one and 8 weeks at the other (it was a long summer, but informative), it was pretty clear which side I wanted to be on. Corporate defense was not for me.

Then again, I probably would have known that corporate defense was not for me even before that summer. I wish someone had come out and said during law school that what these big firms do is provide legal services to huge corporations, and in litigation, the legal services that huge corporations need generally involve defending against lawsuits. So if you're in litigation in biglaw, you mostly defend huge corporations accused of wrongdoing. Obviously, that's very broad-brush, and there are a lot of niches where it's not quite that simple, but that's the core of the work at most places. Just as an ideological matter (setting aside the hours, etc.), I don't think I could do that, and it would've made the whole process easier — and more transparent — if anyone in law school had ever just plainly said that that's what these firms do.

As is probably obvious from the above, I'm one of the rare few walking away from a biglaw offer to do public interest. (Private public interest, but public interest nonetheless.)

----

On whether time in biglaw hurts your chances for public interest hiring, it depends. For a traditional nonprofit public interest organization, it is typical that you have to show a strong commitment to their mission — which means interning there or at a similar organization during law school (at least one summer, ideally both summers with each at a different org), doing a fellowship after law school that focuses on that topic, etc. Any time in biglaw makes them wonder if you're really committed, so it's harmful (but not necessarily fatal) to your chances. (There are exceptions, but this is the general rule.)

Within the government, it varies, but the norm is that time spent in biglaw is not harmful. It's best to go in through an honors program if you can, but people do lateral in from time to time and you don't get overly skeptical questions about whether you're really committed to the mission of the office. (Something like DOJ Civil Rights is an exception, though.)

Within private public interest — which people often forget about, but it's close to my heart for obvious reasons — it yet again varies. Firms that serve unions — e.g., Altshuler Berzon, Bredhoff & Kaiser — tend to be skeptical of those who come from biglaw. They want you to show that you've been focused on the labor movement since birth. Plaintiffs' firms tend to be friendlier to laterals from biglaw, but each firm is a little different. And then the eclectic rest of private public interest (e.g., Strumwasser & Woocher in L.A.) is, well, eclectic, so it's hard to generalize.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby katthegreat11 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:39 pm

tomwatts wrote:Within private public interest — which people often forget about, but it's close to my heart for obvious reasons — it yet again varies. Firms that serve unions — e.g., Altshuler Berzon, Bredhoff & Kaiser — tend to be skeptical of those who come from biglaw. They want you to show that you've been focused on the labor movement since birth. Plaintiffs' firms tend to be friendlier to laterals from biglaw, but each firm is a little different. And then the eclectic rest of private public interest (e.g., Strumwasser & Woocher in L.A.) is, well, eclectic, so it's hard to generalize.


Could you talk a little bit about how you find out about these private public interest firms? I'm kind of interested in private public interest environmental work; I want to work on important environmental issues (on the side of the good guys), but I'm not a stereotypical "tree-hugger" and enjoy corporate environments, so I'm not sure PI will be for me. Government is an option too of course but I don't want to go straight there.

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby guynourmin » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:57 pm

tomwatts wrote:Within the government, it varies, but the norm is that time spent in biglaw is not harmful. It's best to go in through an honors program if you can, but people do lateral in from time to time and you don't get overly skeptical questions about whether you're really committed to the mission of the office.


can you expand on this? it was my understanding that most AUSAs come in from biglaw. Why is it best to go in through an honors program. I mean, what are the advantages to your career 10 years down the line if you went in through an honors program as opposed to spending 3 years in biglaw then coming in?

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:09 pm

I think a lot of fed employees are laterals, actually, though I'm sure it depends on the agency/component/division/etc. Not all agencies even have honors programs, and even in ones that do, there can be a disinclination to train people from the absolute bottom up. (Also many honors programs are small enough, they're not going to staff an entire agency.)

However I'd say there's definitely no concern about honors people's dedication to federal service. I know people who are proud of being lifers who started in honors.

Other advantages are probably just getting experience quickly, and also you get through the 10 years of PSLF quicker if that's how you're handling loans. (Also you don't have to suffer the paycut from biglaw!)

(Re: AUSAs - it's office-specific. The fancier ones mostly do prefer biglaw people, but others like former ADAs or JAG or the like.)

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby tomwatts » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:58 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:Could you talk a little bit about how you find out about these private public interest firms? I'm kind of interested in private public interest environmental work; I want to work on important environmental issues (on the side of the good guys), but I'm not a stereotypical "tree-hugger" and enjoy corporate environments, so I'm not sure PI will be for me. Government is an option too of course but I don't want to go straight there.

Frankly, it's hard to find out about them. It took me a couple of years of researching to feel like I had a reasonable sense of the space in which I'm interested. There isn't anything like a Vault list. There are some very limited lists in, I think, Chambers & Partners, but they're not very helpful.

One starting point is HLS's list of private public interest firms (which I believe you don't need a school login to access), but that list includes some things that it should not and probably does not include some things it should.

From there, I'd look at firm websites to see if anyone does anything that you might be interested in. If you can find someone, I'd try to them on the phone for an informational interview. (A cold email actually works pretty well; just email them saying that you're interested in their work and would like to chat for a few minutes.) Ask them about the work that they do and that their firm does, and ask them whether they know of any peer firms doing similar work. Follow up on any leads they provide and talk to those people as well. From there, you may able to get a sense of the space.

It may also be helpful to make use of your school's career services office (if they have any clue about private public interest, which most don't) or your school's alumni network (if you can track down anyone in private public interest). I have also literally just Googled to see if I can find firms that I did not otherwise encounter.

In the area of environmental law, the first firm that comes to mind (because I am a Californian) is Shute Mihaly & Weinberger. Someone there could probably describe what private public interest environmental law is like and probably could tell you if any other firms do similar work.

guybourdin wrote:can you expand on this? it was my understanding that most AUSAs come in from biglaw. Why is it best to go in through an honors program. I mean, what are the advantages to your career 10 years down the line if you went in through an honors program as opposed to spending 3 years in biglaw then coming in?

"Best" in the sense that then you'll know you'll actually be going into the government. It can be possible to lateral from biglaw to government work, but it's not guaranteed, and it's not as easy as some people make it out to be. If you go to biglaw intending to go into government eventually, you might be able to. But then again, you might not. So wherever possible, if you can go in through honors and you really want to do that kind of work, I'd recommend going in through honors.

(To be clear, though, the point that I was making in that post was that you're far less likely to get skeptically questioned about your commitment to the mission if you're trying to go from biglaw to government than if you're trying to go from biglaw to certain nonprofit public interest organizations. So I'm not saying it's impossible, or even uncommon, to transition from biglaw to government. It just doesn't always work out.)
Last edited by tomwatts on Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

katthegreat11
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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby katthegreat11 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:11 pm

tomwatts wrote:


Thank you so much, that is incredibly helpful, I really appreciate it!

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twenty
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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby twenty » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:00 pm

i only know 1 person who didn't go through OCI bc of of her commitment to PI.


Knew from day one I wanted to work in government. Zero regrets on skipping OCI.

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Nonconsecutive
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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby Nonconsecutive » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:22 am

twenty wrote:
i only know 1 person who didn't go through OCI bc of of her commitment to PI.


Knew from day one I wanted to work in government. Zero regrets on skipping OCI.


Ditto

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Re: Public interest vs. BL: Did you have an "aha" moment?

Postby ashrice13 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:45 am

tomwatts wrote:

Thanks for that link!! Can confirm it's accessible without a log in and it's super helpful. I honestly didn't know much about private public interest firms before and there's some really great info there.




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