0L prep vs starting 1L early?

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lucillebluthismyhero

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0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:11 pm

Hi all. Longtime lurker, first time poster here. I am faced with a dilemma. I am attending OU Law next year, taking advantage of their early entry program that allows me to skip my last semester (which would have been all electives) of my undergrad and begin law school early.

OU also offers a "1LS" program, which allows entering 1L students to take one 1L course the summer prior to the 1L semester, which allows you to have one less class to worry about during the fall semester.

So, I have been planning on doing that. But, I have also been planning on taking Arrow's legendary 0L advice (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77628) as I want to be in the top of my class and possibly transfer to another school.

All of that to say, would it be better to take advantage of the 1LS program even though I would have only a 10 day break between undergrad finals and classes beginning (also only 20 days between 1LS finals and 1L classes beginning)? Or, would it be better to take the summer off, work, save, and complete all of Arrow's suggested 0L prep?

grades??

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby grades?? » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:13 pm

Just fyi don't enroll if you want to transfer. Chances are very high you wont be able to transfer out of OU. Only go to a school you will be happy to graduate from.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby zot1 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:17 pm

Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:06 pm

grades?? wrote:Just fyi don't enroll if you want to transfer. Chances are very high you wont be able to transfer out of OU. Only go to a school you will be happy to graduate from.


I would be happy graduating from OU. But, what makes you say it's highly unlikely I would be able to transfer? I realize I might not be able to be in the top of my class (although I am determined to be). From what I've read, however, if I am in the top 5% I have a very good chance at transferring to a T14 or at least to a T1. Arrow, the user I mentioned, famously transferred from a T2 school to BOALT Hall.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:07 pm

zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby zot1 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:08 pm

The thing is that despite what Arrow said, some of his techniques will simply not work for other people. Banking on a transfer is a bad idea. But if you're okay with an OU diploma if things don't work out, then you'll be fine.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby zot1 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:09 pm

lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:


But you hadn't given me all the facts before...

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:21 pm

zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:


But you hadn't given me all the facts before...


Haha, true. Yea, I am actually really torn between staying at OU and graduating with substantially less debt and transferring to a higher-ranked school. If I stay at OU, I will probably work in Oklahoma, which I would be fine with. I have a lot of friends and connections here and could probably go into politics someday. However, part of me wants to get the hell out of here because it is so damn conservative and I'm a progressive... not to mention I would enjoy all the amenities a coastal city could offer. On the other hand, I am actually sort of terrified to move to a new place and start all over with minimal connections. I have friends on the east and west coasts, but no professional connections.

So, really I would be fine with either option. I just want to do my best, apply for transfers, and if I'm accepted to somewhere great, I'll consider moving there.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby Mullens » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:42 pm

lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:


But you hadn't given me all the facts before...


Haha, true. Yea, I am actually really torn between staying at OU and graduating with substantially less debt and transferring to a higher-ranked school. If I stay at OU, I will probably work in Oklahoma, which I would be fine with. I have a lot of friends and connections here and could probably go into politics someday. However, part of me wants to get the hell out of here because it is so damn conservative and I'm a progressive... not to mention I would enjoy all the amenities a coastal city could offer. On the other hand, I am actually sort of terrified to move to a new place and start all over with minimal connections. I have friends on the east and west coasts, but no professional connections.

So, really I would be fine with either option. I just want to do my best, apply for transfers, and if I'm accepted to somewhere great, I'll consider moving there.


You're really counting your chickens before they hatch here. The reason people tell you that you shouldn't attend a school with the goal of transferring is because the vast majority of people won't do well enough to transfer. Most people enter law school thinking they will finish in the top 5%. 95% of people don't. You're looking at long odds here and it's not just a matter of working hard. Almost everyone is going to work their asses off during 1L. Law schools exams are different than anything you've ever done before. They will click for some people. For others, they won't; and no matter how hard those people study and try, their ceiling will be far below top 5%. All it takes is getting sick during finals, having something bad happen to you out of nowhere, or missing a sentence or word while reading a five page, single-spaced fact pattern to ruin your chances of transferring.

If you want to attend a better school than OU, the time to make that happen is before you enroll. It's a hell of a lot easier to retake the LSAT than get the grades to transfer.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:05 pm

Mullens wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:


But you hadn't given me all the facts before...


Haha, true. Yea, I am actually really torn between staying at OU and graduating with substantially less debt and transferring to a higher-ranked school. If I stay at OU, I will probably work in Oklahoma, which I would be fine with. I have a lot of friends and connections here and could probably go into politics someday. However, part of me wants to get the hell out of here because it is so damn conservative and I'm a progressive... not to mention I would enjoy all the amenities a coastal city could offer. On the other hand, I am actually sort of terrified to move to a new place and start all over with minimal connections. I have friends on the east and west coasts, but no professional connections.

So, really I would be fine with either option. I just want to do my best, apply for transfers, and if I'm accepted to somewhere great, I'll consider moving there.


You're really counting your chickens before they hatch here. The reason people tell you that you shouldn't attend a school with the goal of transferring is because the vast majority of people won't do well enough to transfer. Most people enter law school thinking they will finish in the top 5%. 95% of people don't. You're looking at long odds here and it's not just a matter of working hard. Almost everyone is going to work their asses off during 1L. Law schools exams are different than anything you've ever done before. They will click for some people. For others, they won't; and no matter how hard those people study and try, their ceiling will be far below top 5%. All it takes is getting sick during finals, having something bad happen to you out of nowhere, or missing a sentence or word while reading a five page, single-spaced fact pattern to ruin your chances of transferring.

If you want to attend a better school than OU, the time to make that happen is before you enroll. It's a hell of a lot easier to retake the LSAT than get the grades to transfer.


Of course, you are right. But my situation is a bit different than most, I imagine. I am not a traditional student. I am married, 29 years old, and am just finishing my undergrad degree after returning to school (I dropped out during the recession). I am not attending OU because of a bad LSAT score. I haven't received my December scores yet, but I've been averaging a 165 and there was a lot of room for improvement with LG. I have the GPA and know I could get the LSAT score needed to get into at least a T1 school. I would have to wait a year, however. I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but I am almost 30, I hate my job, and am just really ready to move on. On top of that, by participating in the OU early entry program, I am saving $$ I would have spent on my final undergrad semester at OU because they let me skip the free elective requirement.

Again, if I end up staying at OU, I'll be fine. I wasn't even considering transferring until after the election when my husband expressed his desire that we move away from here. We've spoken about it, and he's also okay with us staying if that's how it works out. But, I'm still going to do all that I can to be in the top of my class because... why not? Obviously I will be disappointed if that doesn't happen, but not necessarily because I won't get to transfer. I'd just be disappointed because I like doing well.

Main point: I am going to be fine with either outcome, but I am going to strive to be in the top of my class. So, I'm wondering which I should do: take the summer off (from school, I still have to work) and do 0L prep or forgo the 0L prep and start 1L early with the summer program?

grades??

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby grades?? » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:07 pm

lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
Mullens wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:


But you hadn't given me all the facts before...


Haha, true. Yea, I am actually really torn between staying at OU and graduating with substantially less debt and transferring to a higher-ranked school. If I stay at OU, I will probably work in Oklahoma, which I would be fine with. I have a lot of friends and connections here and could probably go into politics someday. However, part of me wants to get the hell out of here because it is so damn conservative and I'm a progressive... not to mention I would enjoy all the amenities a coastal city could offer. On the other hand, I am actually sort of terrified to move to a new place and start all over with minimal connections. I have friends on the east and west coasts, but no professional connections.

So, really I would be fine with either option. I just want to do my best, apply for transfers, and if I'm accepted to somewhere great, I'll consider moving there.


You're really counting your chickens before they hatch here. The reason people tell you that you shouldn't attend a school with the goal of transferring is because the vast majority of people won't do well enough to transfer. Most people enter law school thinking they will finish in the top 5%. 95% of people don't. You're looking at long odds here and it's not just a matter of working hard. Almost everyone is going to work their asses off during 1L. Law schools exams are different than anything you've ever done before. They will click for some people. For others, they won't; and no matter how hard those people study and try, their ceiling will be far below top 5%. All it takes is getting sick during finals, having something bad happen to you out of nowhere, or missing a sentence or word while reading a five page, single-spaced fact pattern to ruin your chances of transferring.

If you want to attend a better school than OU, the time to make that happen is before you enroll. It's a hell of a lot easier to retake the LSAT than get the grades to transfer.


Of course, you are right. But my situation is a bit different than most, I imagine. I am not a traditional student. I am married, 29 years old, and am just finishing my undergrad degree after returning to school (I dropped out during the recession). I am not attending OU because of a bad LSAT score. I haven't received my December scores yet, but I've been averaging a 165 and there was a lot of room for improvement with LG. I have the GPA and know I could get the LSAT score needed to get into at least a T1 school. I would have to wait a year, however. I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but I am almost 30, I hate my job, and am just really ready to move on. On top of that, by participating in the OU early entry program, I am saving $$ I would have spent on my final undergrad semester at OU because they let me skip the free elective requirement.

Again, if I end up staying at OU, I'll be fine. I wasn't even considering transferring until after the election when my husband expressed his desire that we move away from here. We've spoken about it, and he's also okay with us staying if that's how it works out. But, I'm still going to do all that I can to be in the top of my class because... why not? Obviously I will be disappointed if that doesn't happen, but not necessarily because I won't get to transfer. I'd just be disappointed because I like doing well.

Main point: I am going to be fine with either outcome, but I am going to strive to be in the top of my class. So, I'm wondering which I should do: take the summer off (from school, I still have to work) and do 0L prep or forgo the 0L prep and start 1L early with the summer program?


Okay just realize a law degree from OU is going to limit you to Oklahoma. So really truly make sure your husband is down with staying in Oklahoma long term, because IF you get a legal job after attending OU, it will be in state.

2014 data shows only 69% of the class of 2014 got full time legal jobs, with the median income at 60k a year. Make sure you are cool with spending all this money and time attending a school where you have at least a 30% chance of not getting a legal job, and if you do, it will be at 60k.

Source: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/oklahoma/jobs/

Also, in response to your most recent post, if you want politics, don't go to law school. It will be a waste.
Last edited by grades?? on Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lucillebluthismyhero

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:13 pm

grades?? wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
Mullens wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Okay just realize a law degree from OU is going to limit you to Oklahoma. So really truly make sure your husband is down with staying in Oklahoma long term, because IF you get a legal job after attending OU, it will be in state.


Yep, we understand this. Like I said, the whole plan was to stay in Oklahoma all along because I have such great connections and wanted to potentially be involved in politics here. Really, I'm just treating the transfer idea as a long shot, but one that will give me even more fire to do my best to be in the top of my class. With that in mind, do you think the summer program is worth it? Or should I take the summer off from school and do 0L prep?

grades??

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby grades?? » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:20 pm

lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
grades?? wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Okay just realize a law degree from OU is going to limit you to Oklahoma. So really truly make sure your husband is down with staying in Oklahoma long term, because IF you get a legal job after attending OU, it will be in state.
[/quote]

Yep, we understand this. Like I said, the whole plan was to stay in Oklahoma all along because I have such great connections and wanted to potentially be involved in politics here. Really, I'm just treating the transfer idea as a long shot, but one that will give me even more fire to do my best to be in the top of my class. With that in mind, do you think the summer program is worth it? Or should I take the summer off from school and do 0L prep?[/quote]

Sorry for the double response, check my edit on my previous post

lucillebluthismyhero

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:23 pm

grades?? wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
Mullens wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
zot1 wrote:Stop making more work for yourself. Once you become an attorney you're gonna work for the rest of your life. Take a trip or something.


Unfortunately, if I don't participate in the summer program, I will be working anyway... and I hate my job :wink:


But you hadn't given me all the facts before...


Haha, true. Yea, I am actually really torn between staying at OU and graduating with substantially less debt and transferring to a higher-ranked school. If I stay at OU, I will probably work in Oklahoma, which I would be fine with. I have a lot of friends and connections here and could probably go into politics someday. However, part of me wants to get the hell out of here because it is so damn conservative and I'm a progressive... not to mention I would enjoy all the amenities a coastal city could offer. On the other hand, I am actually sort of terrified to move to a new place and start all over with minimal connections. I have friends on the east and west coasts, but no professional connections.

So, really I would be fine with either option. I just want to do my best, apply for transfers, and if I'm accepted to somewhere great, I'll consider moving there.


You're really counting your chickens before they hatch here. The reason people tell you that you shouldn't attend a school with the goal of transferring is because the vast majority of people won't do well enough to transfer. Most people enter law school thinking they will finish in the top 5%. 95% of people don't. You're looking at long odds here and it's not just a matter of working hard. Almost everyone is going to work their asses off during 1L. Law schools exams are different than anything you've ever done before. They will click for some people. For others, they won't; and no matter how hard those people study and try, their ceiling will be far below top 5%. All it takes is getting sick during finals, having something bad happen to you out of nowhere, or missing a sentence or word while reading a five page, single-spaced fact pattern to ruin your chances of transferring.

If you want to attend a better school than OU, the time to make that happen is before you enroll. It's a hell of a lot easier to retake the LSAT than get the grades to transfer.


Of course, you are right. But my situation is a bit different than most, I imagine. I am not a traditional student. I am married, 29 years old, and am just finishing my undergrad degree after returning to school (I dropped out during the recession). I am not attending OU because of a bad LSAT score. I haven't received my December scores yet, but I've been averaging a 165 and there was a lot of room for improvement with LG. I have the GPA and know I could get the LSAT score needed to get into at least a T1 school. I would have to wait a year, however. I know that doesn't seem like a lot, but I am almost 30, I hate my job, and am just really ready to move on. On top of that, by participating in the OU early entry program, I am saving $$ I would have spent on my final undergrad semester at OU because they let me skip the free elective requirement.

Again, if I end up staying at OU, I'll be fine. I wasn't even considering transferring until after the election when my husband expressed his desire that we move away from here. We've spoken about it, and he's also okay with us staying if that's how it works out. But, I'm still going to do all that I can to be in the top of my class because... why not? Obviously I will be disappointed if that doesn't happen, but not necessarily because I won't get to transfer. I'd just be disappointed because I like doing well.

Main point: I am going to be fine with either outcome, but I am going to strive to be in the top of my class. So, I'm wondering which I should do: take the summer off (from school, I still have to work) and do 0L prep or forgo the 0L prep and start 1L early with the summer program?


Okay just realize a law degree from OU is going to limit you to Oklahoma. So really truly make sure your husband is down with staying in Oklahoma long term, because IF you get a legal job after attending OU, it will be in state.

2014 data shows only 69% of the class of 2014 got full time legal jobs, with the median income at 60k a year. Make sure you are cool with spending all this money and time attending a school where you have at least a 30% chance of not getting a legal job, and if you do, it will be at 60k.

Source: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/oklahoma/jobs/

Also, in response to your most recent post, if you want politics, don't go to law school. It will be a waste.


Thanks. I do realize all of this, but you're right, I really should contemplate the long-term implications of the decision. Like I've said, the plan all along has been staying in Oklahoma. I have a lot of connections at firms here and also in the political community. If I do continue on this path, no matter what I am still going to try to be in the top of my class. So, would you suggest I take advantage of the summer program or take the summer off to do 0L prep? (...or maybe I take the summer off to reconsider my entire life haha)
Last edited by lucillebluthismyhero on Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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trebekismyhero

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby trebekismyhero » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:24 pm

lucillebluthismyhero wrote:
Yep, we understand this. Like I said, the whole plan was to stay in Oklahoma all along because I have such great connections and wanted to potentially be involved in politics here. Really, I'm just treating the transfer idea as a long shot, but one that will give me even more fire to do my best to be in the top of my class. With that in mind, do you think the summer program is worth it? Or should I take the summer off from school and do 0L prep?


0L prep is worthless. If the summer start will save you money and you're ok with everything that has been mentioned, just do that.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:07 pm

Honestly taking the entire summer off is probably the best plan

Don't do 0L prep. Never ever.

You don't sound very convincing when you say you'd be fine living in Oklahoma forever and ever. Don't go to OU unless you plan on being a practicing attorney in Oklahoma long term.

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:40 pm

lucillebluthismyhero wrote:But my situation is a bit different than most, I imagine.


Not that much different.

If you don't want to graduate from OU (and for all your insistence that you totally planned on staying in OK, it sure sounds like you wanted to go somewhere that wasn't in the state), then you shouldn't be doing this at all. You cannot count on placing high enough in your class to transfer, and your reasons for not wanting to wait a year are not good enough (but don't worry, no one has ever had a good reason for not waiting and going to a better school at a better price).

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby lucillebluthismyhero » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:16 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
lucillebluthismyhero wrote:But my situation is a bit different than most, I imagine.


Not that much different.

If you don't want to graduate from OU (and for all your insistence that you totally planned on staying in OK, it sure sounds like you wanted to go somewhere that wasn't in the state), then you shouldn't be doing this at all. You cannot count on placing high enough in your class to transfer, and your reasons for not wanting to wait a year are not good enough (but don't worry, no one has ever had a good reason for not waiting and going to a better school at a better price).


Ok Ok everyone, you have successfully persuaded me to rethink my entire life plan, so you've done your job :wink: :?

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Re: 0L prep vs starting 1L early?

Postby TragicBronson » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:38 pm

I'll answer the question you asked.

I think 0L prep, except for perhaps 0.5% of people, would be very hard to be disciplined at. Law school is the kind of thing that you sometimes need a gun to your head in order to be motivated for it.

On the other hand, I think that summer program sounds great. For one, you have all of your time to focus on just the one class, which might help that grade. Two, it's one less class to worry about in the fall, which might help those grades. Third, you will know what a law school exam looks and feels like before you begin the majority of your classes. I think half of the game of 1L fall is knowing which of the things you encounter in class and in your reading need to be remembered and paid attention to and which things don't. Knowing what exams are about from the beginning will help with this.



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