Small Law Associate Taking Questions Forum

[SmallLawGuy]

I recognize that this website is dedicated to top law schools and in particular lawyers who ultimately practice at top law firms or in similar high level places. However, based on the vale of tears, I wanted to offer up my experiences as a lawyer in a small firm and also as a state court clerk. I'll fill in a few details:

I graduated from a good (private, non-ivy) undergraduate with middling grades. I went to a regional T2 with a decent reputation - they own a modest market on the east coast. It is a good location for me, but I would only recommend it for those who would want to live near there (within about 60 miles). I also live in/near a major metro area which has several other law schools.

I graduated about top 1/3. I am on IBR and definitely paid too much. However, with some reasonable budgeting, I don't live in squalor. I was unemployed at graduation, but found a clerkship while studying for the bar.

As a side note - take the cheapest bar prep unless you're not paying for it. People on this site tend to be self-starters, so results will probably be positive. No guarantees though.

Another note - I worked for a solo during law school. I also interned for a major burb's legal department. Here again, if you're a T2 student or similar and without an SA, I recommend this highly. Experience, regardless of the ultimate job prospects, is very helpful. Coming into my job now, knowing how to draft discovery, complaints, answers, etc, was immensely helpful, not just for the interview, but as I started my job. I also knew how to bill hours.

I clerked for a state judge. It was an excellent experience and led to my job. I can unquestionable recommend that those who are in a jobless position should highly consider it. Particularly if you're a T2 grad (or lower). YMMV - my judge was an excellent person to work for and that is perhaps the most important part of finding a clerkship.

My clerkship led to me meeting not just a variety of lawyers, but people and judges who ultimately helped me network into a job. Networking isn't merely going to bar association events and trying to get coffee with lawyers. I have what I would consider a positive personality and so I would frequently take time as I was going around the courthouse to offhandedly chat with anyone - from court personnel to a judge I wasn't familiar with. One such judge made a contact for me with the lawyer I work for now.

I work in a small law office with 3 other attorneys. 2 partners, an of counsel (e.g. non-partner track, but experienced associate) and me, the associate. My practice is about 50% transactional with a focus on local government, land use, etc. I do about 40% litigation which is also government related (the of counsel and I are the litigators), but we do take on the occasional Plaintiff's case. I do about 10% criminal, which is really just covering small criminal matters. I have no desire to be a criminal lawyer, but it is the most frequent cause of any court appearance I make. I really enjoy my office and my work. It is both substantive and interesting. There is tedious work, but all jobs have this.

My salary is firmly entrenched on the lower level of the bi-modal salary curve. However, I am near the top of that lower level. I work 50-55 hours a week, but working for a small firm gives me significant control over my schedule. I usually just work 8-6 with the occasional saturday - but sometimes I just work from home. My hour requirement is incredibly reasonable and less than almost every large firm I've encountered and there is no BS about that number. There is a reasonable bonus structure and I also work to bring business into the firm, which bolsters my salary.

My results aren't typical. I would disagree that attending a T2 only gives you an extremely limited shot at practicing law. the majority of my class practices (more than 50%). Most probably make less than me. Most probably work more than me. Most probably hate their bosses. Most probably won't be practicing law in another 5 years (who knows if I will). Most definitely can't service their debt. I don't do ID, but several of my law school friends do now. It is a decent place to start a career, particularly from a T2.

I never went to law school to do international criminal law or corporate law. I worked for an insurance company before LS and that is what drove me to go. I generally hated law school, but I generally enjoy the practice. I'm in a practice now which fits both my personality and my skills. Results can be HIGHLY variable here, particularly when you can't be picky.

So ask away. Most lawyers in the country work in solo and small firms and so the experience varies wildly from what's discussed on this site. I recognize that many (maybe most?) will work for large firms and this info will be unimportant to you. For those that are heading or would prefer a small firm though, feel free to ask.

[jimmythecatdied6]

What is the "lower level of the bi-modal salary curve" and how are you compensated for bringing in business to the firm? Also, what kind of business have you brought in?

Thanks for answering.

[SmallLawGuy]

What is the "lower level of the bi-modal salary curve" and how are you compensated for bringing in business to the firm? Also, what kind of business have you brought in?

Thanks for answering.

1) http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I'm on the lower hump, but near the top. I'd say the bulk of my friends (who are all employed) who are at successful small and midsized firms and the AG's office range from about 55k to 85k. Results above that are not typical. And definitely not in my region. However, I know several colleagues who are unemployed and/or underemployed.

2) My business bonus structure is 1/3 of the billing rate of whatever business I bring in (also collected - which is crucial). So in the case of litigation, that tends to be reasonably high. I've landed a couple cases from friends and friends of friends involved in construction and engineering type stuff (contract disputes and similar). We took one on contingency and ended up with 0 though. That one hurt. I spend time trying to find stuff, and I've made decent cash with the small number of cases I've found, but also wasted time in terms of cases and development.

3) I'd like to focus more on local political stuff as that will help develop a book of business, the collectables are much easier to get and the income stream is relatively continuous. It's really all networking though - and its a skill I continually work on.

[TheSpanishMain]

Where do you see your career trajectory? How often do you see raises?

[SmallLawGuy]

Where do you see your career trajectory?

That's a tough question to answer. For me, personally, there's a variety of ways. I'm comfortable right now, so the alternatives with modest pay increases don't necessarily appeal. I'm also relatively new, so I'm not actively looking at all. Even passively, I don't want to appear as a flakey associate. I

That being said, there's perhaps 3 major arcs.

1) Lateral into gov't. City Gov't, the AG's office, etc.

2) Go Solo.

3) Lateral to a mid-sized firm. My predecessor associate did this. There are also big law regional firms in the major city nearby. I believe those are attainable based on where some of my colleagues ended up, but that's just my conjecture.

I'd like to think solo would be my preference, but the debt might drive me to mid-sized. Ultimately, Career trajectory is predicated on your book of business or ability to make it rain. It that way, the "partnership" track of big law and small law are very similar, IMO.

How often do you see raises?

The trend at the firm seems to be about once a year. Raises are just incredibly variable - there's obviously no lockstep raise. However, the firm is incredibly stable and so I expect trends to continue. I'm sure if things went south though, there would be no guarantee.

[Young Marino]

Would you say it's fairly common to see former ADAs enter private practice through a law firm such as yours? Do you have any knowledge of ADAs making that kind of move?

[TheSpanishMain]

Do you like your job? Obviously there will be some good and bad in just about any gig, but overall, are you happy you went to law school?
What advice would you give someone looking into small/midlaw?
What does your firm look for in new hires? Is regionalism as big a factor as people say?
In your opinion, what proportion of small law firms are decent vs. the stereotypical shady ambulance chasing divorce lawyer?

[Young Marino]

In your opinion, what proportion of small law firms are decent vs. the stereotypical shady ambulance chasing divorce lawyer?

I'd also like to know the answer to this. I feel like small firm lawyers get a worse reputation for being "sharks" than biglaw associates.

[SmallLawGuy]

Would you say it's fairly common to see former ADAs enter private practice through a law firm such as yours? Do you have any knowledge of ADAs making that kind of move?

I honestly don't know the answer to this. I know a few county prosecutor types that transition to private practice (They're much older than me). The partners here do a lot of criminal work (I do only a little and real minor stuff), so the fit would be natural. It seems, at least around here, that most prosecutors are lifers, but that's just my own observation.

Do you like your job? Obviously there will be some good and bad in just about any gig, but overall, are you happy you went to law school?
What advice would you give someone looking into small/midlaw?
What does your firm look for in new hires? Is regionalism as big a factor as people say?
In your opinion, what proportion of small law firms are decent vs. the stereotypical shady ambulance chasing divorce lawyer?

Lots of stuff

Yes - I generally enjoy my job. I worked in a non-legal industry before and I enjoy the substance of my job a lot. FOR ME, I'm still glad I went because I enjoy my career and the small law area tends to produce a ton of variety. In particular, local gov't lends itself to getting into a ton of different areas. That is good for me.

When i got my offer, the floodgates opened and I had 2 other offers (and I was 1 month from my clerkship ending, so rest assured, I was still on edge and worried). I made the right choice because I could have worked at a mill or a Plaintiff's firm. The mill would have been awful and the P's firm might have been good - no idea there.

Whether it was worth the debt is a much harder question. If you're someone like me, who wanted to do a lot more immediately, but obviously on a small scale, I think it was still an okay choice. The debt is ultimately a number I just pay every month (A crappy one). Still, I'm now in a financial position to pay more and I'll likely pay it off, but over a longer period than many of the contemporaries on this site. YMMV - significantly on this course.

Advice? Listen, I generally believe people don't look to small law unless they have to. There's a few that do, but (myself include) most generally want to work for a bigger firm because there's more salary (in theory), prestige, etc. I can tell you, my salary is comparable to regional midlaw - so consider that if you're looking.

Here's the scenario - You're a 3L. You're unemployed. You are going to a T2 (hopefully the region's leader). In 8 months, you'll take the bar and in 10 months(ish), you'll probably find out you passed. But, you'll be unemployed. What do you do?

1) Look for state clerkships - anywhere you feel comfortable
2) Find a part-time job - ideally in private practice.
2a) If possible, consider a quality mentor who would be your boss. I had a great (but very old) boss who hired me. The pay sucked (but hey - money!), but the experience was there. I went to every courthouse in the general area, I sat in on motions, I drafted briefs (which were lightly edited - because small firms are busy). I worked with clients. I still felt unprepared to solo right out of law school, but I probably could have pulled off the legal end of it.
2b) Intern somewhere else - yeah while you're working (obviously clear it with the judge and/or person you work for).
3) Don't be a jerk or a debbie downer. Seriously, just have a gregarious personality - you'll be surprised what you can get from it.
4) Networking seems obvious. Most people (I guess me at least) thought it meant showing up to bar events and lawyerly stuff. That's true, but you're real networking is done while working. Do you're best to get around and work with other attorneys, judges, etc. One may lead you onto another lead for a job.
5) Don't bother mass-mailing small firms (as a general rule).

Regionalism is important. I'm not from the region I work in though. Still, a demonstrated interest in the area is crucial. It's certainly helpful, but I could only offer anecdotal advice. The biggest factor in regionalism is that small firms don't want to see you bounce after a year or two. Young lawyers are expensive

There's probably a myriad of things to work for. Here, my boss felt I had a decent presence and could handle myself in court and I had a good writing sample, was recommended by a judge he knew and so on. Biggest factor though, was fit. There's no real way to fix it, you either fit in or you don't. Definitely ask around before you interview - all the attorneys talk

As far as your last Question - I have no idea about a proportion. There are a lot of firms that don't and there are a lot of larger mills that do a ton of it. However, as a young lawyer, if you can work for a varied plaintiff's practice, that's not a bad deal (unless the firm has money issues - which is very possible). They can be great to cut your teeth on and you will be relied upon to do some pretty heavy legal lifting. Like I said before, don't be afraid to ask around and determine whether the firm is a good fit or good place to work.

[tortsandtiaras]

Hi there,

I am making $52k a year (I am 21)...Would you suggest I go to law school? I don't really want big law...but you are saying that you make around that now?

[FSK]

Hi there,

I am making $52k a year (I am 21)...Would you suggest I go to law school? I don't really want big law...but you are saying that you make around that now?

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer & you hate yourself.

[SmallLawGuy]

Hi there,

I am making $52k a year (I am 21)...Would you suggest I go to law school? I don't really want big law...but you are saying that you make around that now?

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer & you hate yourself.

I'd need to know more about your career, but generally I agree with the above poster. I made about what you are when I left my job and started law school and make more now, but my earning potential (like yours) is roughly the same as it was before law school. Obviously, no one can predict the future, but in a strictly financial sense, it wasn't worth it.

Based on your posts of T2s in Florida, you'd have a limited (very) shot a big law or regional big law and if you got local mid law or small law, you'd be very close to your current salary (perhaps a bit less). Assuming your career is promising, based on what I see, I don't think it makes financial sense to go unless you went PT for free. And even then...

Law school is for people who want to be lawyers. Perhaps a small (SMALL) minority should go for other reasons (legal research/academia and maybe some others) but those are very lofty positions and are for top 3 grads generally.

[tortsandtiaras]

Hi there,

I am making $52k a year (I am 21)...Would you suggest I go to law school? I don't really want big law...but you are saying that you make around that now?

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer & you hate yourself.

I saw another post where you say you go to GW now...and that is my dream school (even paying sticker). Why do you regreat that decision?

[FSK]

Hi there,

I am making $52k a year (I am 21)...Would you suggest I go to law school? I don't really want big law...but you are saying that you make around that now?

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer & you hate yourself.

I saw another post where you say you go to GW now...and that is my dream school (even paying sticker). Why do you regreat that decision?

They've increased their class size 150 two years over with declining job prospects and a 100 person transfer class, while charging a bunch of kids (I mean a ton) their unconscionable full tuition. School only cares about $$$ and not outcomes of students.

[tortsandtiaras]

Hi there,

I am making $52k a year (I am 21)...Would you suggest I go to law school? I don't really want big law...but you are saying that you make around that now?

You should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer & you hate yourself.

I'd need to know more about your career, but generally I agree with the above poster. I made about what you are when I left my job and started law school and make more now, but my earning potential (like yours) is roughly the same as it was before law school. Obviously, no one can predict the future, but in a strictly financial sense, it wasn't worth it.

Based on your posts of T2s in Florida, you'd have a limited (very) shot a big law or regional big law and if you got local mid law or small law, you'd be very close to your current salary (perhaps a bit less). Assuming your career is promising, based on what I see, I don't think it makes financial sense to go unless you went PT for free. And even then...

Law school is for people who want to be lawyers. Perhaps a small (SMALL) minority should go for other reasons (legal research/academia and maybe some others) but those are very lofty positions and are for top 3 grads generally.

Thank so much for your help...I am currently working for my state's electrical company. I am not sure of the mobility within my position, but I am sure it makes sense to stay and try to work up? Realistically, how much should I expect to make if I am now 21 making 52k and stay with a company for say 7-10 years. Trying to gauge my 30 year old self...

[FSK]

Making 52K at 21 is enough money to comfortably live on. I know literally 0 about what your job entails/promotion potential, but if you're only worried about making money law school is a piss decision.

[SmallLawGuy]

Thank so much for your help...I am currently working for my state's electrical company. I am not sure of the mobility within my position, but I am sure it makes sense to stay and try to work up? Realistically, how much should I expect to make if I am now 21 making 52k and stay with a company for say 7-10 years. Trying to gauge my 30 year old self...

Making 52K at 21 is enough money to comfortably live on. I know literally 0 about what your job entails/promotion potential, but if you're only worried about making money law school is a piss decision.

I cannot answer that question, but generally the other poster's answer is credited. It's certainly possible to use LS to make a lot of money, but the risk/reward from the schools it appears you're applying to will limit that potential significantly.

[tortsandtiaras]

Thank so much for your help...I am currently working for my state's electrical company. I am not sure of the mobility within my position, but I am sure it makes sense to stay and try to work up? Realistically, how much should I expect to make if I am now 21 making 52k and stay with a company for say 7-10 years. Trying to gauge my 30 year old self...

Making 52K at 21 is enough money to comfortably live on. I know literally 0 about what your job entails/promotion potential, but if you're only worried about making money law school is a piss decision.

I cannot answer that question, but generally the other poster's answer is credited. It's certainly possible to use LS to make a lot of money, but the risk/reward from the schools it appears you're applying to will limit that potential significantly.

Not necessarily going to law school just for $$$. I applied last cycle and was waitlisted literally everywhere I applied to. I got my current position out of luck, last week I graduated from college. I just wanted to make sure I didn't screw myself financially by going to law school. Thanks though

[SmallLawGuy]

Not necessarily going to law school just for $$$. I applied last cycle and was waitlisted literally everywhere I applied to. I got my current position out of luck, last week I graduated from college. I just wanted to make sure I didn't screw myself financially by going to law school. Thanks though

yes, certainly avoid soul-crushing debt.

[Doritos]

Thank so much for your help...I am currently working for my state's electrical company. I am not sure of the mobility within my position, but I am sure it makes sense to stay and try to work up? Realistically, how much should I expect to make if I am now 21 making 52k and stay with a company for say 7-10 years. Trying to gauge my 30 year old self...

Making 52K at 21 is enough money to comfortably live on. I know literally 0 about what your job entails/promotion potential, but if you're only worried about making money law school is a piss decision.

I cannot answer that question, but generally the other poster's answer is credited. It's certainly possible to use LS to make a lot of money, but the risk/reward from the schools it appears you're applying to will limit that potential significantly.

Not necessarily going to law school just for $$$. I applied last cycle and was waitlisted literally everywhere I applied to. I got my current position out of luck, last week I graduated from college. I just wanted to make sure I didn't screw myself financially by going to law school. Thanks though

Why are you looking to apply to law school right after you graduated undergrad and have a really solid job? Look, based on your post history you are interested in "international human rights law." You are 21 and want to change the world and that's cool and all but that area of the law hardly exists and your prospects of doing it are extremely low regardless of where you go to law school. I would recommend you work for a few years at your job, get some experience and some money, and when you are like 25 maybe reassess. If you still have this burning desire to go to law school and save the world go study for the LSAT. You have a solid GPA and a really bad LSAT right now. With a solid GPA and a great LSAT you can go to law school for free somewhere which will take the pressure off when you try to international human rights law, don't find a job in whatever that is, and end up doing some other type of legal work.

[SmallLawGuy]

Thank so much for your help...I am currently working for my state's electrical company. I am not sure of the mobility within my position, but I am sure it makes sense to stay and try to work up? Realistically, how much should I expect to make if I am now 21 making 52k and stay with a company for say 7-10 years. Trying to gauge my 30 year old self...

Making 52K at 21 is enough money to comfortably live on. I know literally 0 about what your job entails/promotion potential, but if you're only worried about making money law school is a piss decision.

I cannot answer that question, but generally the other poster's answer is credited. It's certainly possible to use LS to make a lot of money, but the risk/reward from the schools it appears you're applying to will limit that potential significantly.

Not necessarily going to law school just for $$$. I applied last cycle and was waitlisted literally everywhere I applied to. I got my current position out of luck, last week I graduated from college. I just wanted to make sure I didn't screw myself financially by going to law school. Thanks though

Why are you looking to apply to law school right after you graduated undergrad and have a really solid job? Look, based on your post history you are interested in "international human rights law." You are 21 and want to change the world and that's cool and all but that area of the law hardly exists and your prospects of doing it are extremely low regardless of where you go to law school. I would recommend you work for a few years at your job, get some experience and some money, and when you are like 25 maybe reassess. If you still have this burning desire to go to law school and save the world go study for the LSAT. You have a solid GPA and a really bad LSAT right now. With a solid GPA and a great LSAT you can go to law school for free somewhere which will take the pressure off when you try to international human rights law, don't find a job in whatever that is, and end up doing some other type of legal work.

I generally agree here.

[tortsandtiaras]

Why are you looking to apply to law school right after you graduated undergrad and have a really solid job? Look, based on your post history you are interested in "international human rights law." You are 21 and want to change the world and that's cool and all but that area of the law hardly exists and your prospects of doing it are extremely low regardless of where you go to law school. I would recommend you work for a few years at your job, get some experience and some money, and when you are like 25 maybe reassess. If you still have this burning desire to go to law school and save the world go study for the LSAT. You have a solid GPA and a really bad LSAT right now. With a solid GPA and a great LSAT you can go to law school for free somewhere which will take the pressure off when you try to international human rights law, don't find a job in whatever that is, and end up doing some other type of legal work.[/quote]

I generally agree here.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Thank you for all of your advice. I agree that my LSAT is horrendous right now...I have already sent in my applications to all the schools I wanted, so it is what it is - might as well wait it out. I am planning on retaking the LSAT in February, however. I am willing to wait a cycle or cycles until it improves. Thanks again!

[Doritos]

Why are you looking to apply to law school right after you graduated undergrad and have a really solid job? Look, based on your post history you are interested in "international human rights law." You are 21 and want to change the world and that's cool and all but that area of the law hardly exists and your prospects of doing it are extremely low regardless of where you go to law school. I would recommend you work for a few years at your job, get some experience and some money, and when you are like 25 maybe reassess. If you still have this burning desire to go to law school and save the world go study for the LSAT. You have a solid GPA and a really bad LSAT right now. With a solid GPA and a great LSAT you can go to law school for free somewhere which will take the pressure off when you try to international human rights law, don't find a job in whatever that is, and end up doing some other type of legal work.

I generally agree here.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Thank you for all of your advice. I agree that my LSAT is horrendous right now...I have already sent in my applications to all the schools I wanted, so it is what it is - might as well wait it out. I am planning on retaking the LSAT in February, however. I am willing to wait a cycle or cycles until it improves. Thanks again![/quote]

Good luck. Just remember that the work you put in now on the LSAT can drastically change the trajectory of your career and what life will be like for you after you graduate.