Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

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MCL Law Dean
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Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:32 pm

LAW SCHOOL IN PARADISE?

SEASIDE, CA. -- Sitting in his modest office with a glimpse of the world-famous Monterey Bay shining brightly out the window, Mitchel Winick, Dean of Monterey College of Law ponders aloud why anyone would want to attend law school anywhere else. He readily acknowledges that being located in the midst of an area recognized throughout the world for the storybook cottages of Carmel-By-The-Sea, the famous Pebble Beach golf links, the picturesque 17-Mile Drive, the redwood forests of Big Sur, the spectacular coastal drive along Highway 1, and famous area residents such as Clint Eastwood and John Steinbeck . . . makes it easy for a small California accredited law school to get overlooked.

“Monterey College of Law was founded more than 40 years ago to provide the opportunity for local residents to obtain a quality legal education without having to move out of the area,” said Winick. “That continues to be the primary mission for the law school, but we are also being discovered by students from outside of the area who recognize that there are other benefits to attending law school in an area considered by many to be a cultural, environmental, and recreational paradise.”

On a beautiful, cloudless, sunny day in February it is easy to see his point. “My wife and I hike almost every weekend. Two weeks ago we hiked up to almost 1,600 feet to a spectacular overlook of the Pacific Ocean along Highway 1. We recently hiked into Los Padres National Forest through redwood forests that go for thousands of acres.”

Most people who have visited the area would agree that there are very few places where you can combine a legal education with so many choices for an active lifestyle. Whether it is beach, ocean, forests, or mountains . . . within an hour of the law school you have literally dozens, perhaps hundreds of options. “We moved here in 2005 after more than 25 years in Texas. Don’t get me wrong, there are many great places in Texas, but nothing really compares to the natural beauty and diversity of the Monterey area,” Winick commented.

Although the tourist attractions in the region may be world-famous, Monterey College of Law is almost unknown outside of the area. “California accredited law schools are really hidden gems,” Winick believes. Almost everyone has heard of the traditional, three-year ABA approved law schools in California. The state is home to some of the highest-ranked law schools in the U.S., including Stanford, Boalt Hall at Berkeley, and UCLA. However, many people do not realize that there are also 17 California Accredited Law Schools (CALS) that provide full- and part-time J.D. programs and qualify graduates to sit for the same California Bar exam.

“If you begin with the assumption that you plan to take the California Bar exam and practice law in California, you can obtain a first-class legal education, with small classes, and excellent faculty for one-third to one-half of the cost of a traditional three-year ABA law school,” according to Wendy LaRiviere, Assistant Dean for Admissions at MCL. “We think that the affordability of our program is one of the main reasons that we are getting more applicants from outside of the region.”

LaRiviere, who has been in charge of admissions at MCL for the past fourteen years, points out that “with law school costs continuing to escalate at many of the ABA law schools, an increasing number of students are now considering the value of attending state accredited law schools.” The cost of a law degree now exceeds $150,000 at many ABA law schools. In comparison, total tuition for the part-time, evening program at Monterey College of Law is less than $70,000. “At a time when law students from other schools are graduating with as much as $150,000 of student loan debt, the majority of our graduates ‘pay as they go’ and finish their degree without any debt at all,” said LaRiviere.

“The rising cost of legal education is a barrier to many segments of the population . . . and that should be a significant concern for all of us,” commented Winick. “Furthermore, by burdening recent law graduates with immense debt, we are effectively eliminating the opportunity for them to fill the need for public service and small-firm lawyers in our communities. We blame new lawyers for only being in it (law) for the money . . . and yet we conveniently overlook that they need to repay thousands of dollars in student loans,” said Winick. “I am proud that the affordability of our program is one of the factors that provide our graduates the opportunity to use their law degree in a wide variety of practices without the pressure of crushing debt sitting on their shoulders.”

There is always a concern that graduating from a state-accredited law school will limit future job opportunities. “There is no question that academic elitism exists in many law firms,” explains Winick. “However, the fact of the matter is that we have successful MCL alumni in many of the most prestigious law firms in the region . . . in the District Attorney’s office and the Public Defender’s office . . . and six of our graduates serve as California Superior Court Judges.” Russell Scott, a 1978 MCL graduate, father of 1L writing professor Christian Scott (also an MCL graduate), and the first alumnus to serve as a Superior Court Judge, agrees. “I have the unique perspective of watching lawyers perform in court every week, and it appears to me that MCL’s top graduates are recognized by their peers as some of the most respected and capable lawyers in the county.”

Monterey College of Law provides an evening J.D. program that has historically catered to working professionals. “One of the real benefits of our program is the breadth of experience and real-life perspective that our students bring into the classroom,” said Winick. Sally Green, a banker and former president of the MCL Board of Trustees, confirms the point. “Our program has attracted health professionals, police officers, realtors, bankers, legal administrators, fire and safety professionals, health care managers, high-tech professionals, agricultural business owners, and representatives from virtually every industry in the region,” said Green.

However, LaRiviere adds, “the Internet and social media is clearly changing the characteristics of our applicants. There is no question that we are seeing a growing number of applications from students who learn about us on-line. Unlike our traditional local applicants who have jobs and family that tie them to the area, younger students have the flexibility to move to a new area if they discover a school that meets their needs. We like that they bring new perspectives from outside of the region, and even from outside of the state.”

Another important benefit of the school’s evening law school program is that the faculty members are all practicing lawyers and judges. “We have the great fortune of having current judges from Monterey, Santa Cruz, and San Benito Counties serving on our faculty, along with former presidents of the county bar association, the recipient of one of the top state-wide ACLU awards, and top lawyers from the District Attorney and Public Defenders offices . . . just to point out a few,” said Michelle Welsh, former president of the MCL faculty senate. “Our faculty members represent virtually all aspects of the political, social, business, and legal spectrum in our tri-county area.” Ron Granberg, a former president of the Monterey County Bar Association and Associate Dean for Clinical and Community Programs, adds, “In addition to bringing their expertise into the classroom, as practicing lawyers and judges, the faculty provides students with a network (and jobs) within the legal community.”

The law school is located less than a mile off Highway 1 as part of the higher education enclave being developed on the former Fort Ord army base. MCL moved into its new 12,000 sq. ft. classroom, office, and library building during the summer of 2005. The 3.5 acre campus is adjacent to California State University Monterey Bay and is easily accessible from Monterey, Salinas, and Santa Cruz. “We really enjoy having CSUMB as an educational neighbor,” said Winick. “It is rare for a small private law school to have access to the resources of a CSU campus, including graduate student housing, bookstore, and athletic facilities.” In 2010, the law school opened its 6,000 sq.ft. Platinum LEED Community Justice Center featuring a working courtroom and mediation center. The school also opened a first-year program in Santa Cruz in 2011.

Winick, who has previous teaching and administrative experience at ABA law schools in Texas and New Mexico, believes that he may have the best law school dean job in America. “I live in one of the world’s most beautiful areas . . . have the privilege to serve a well-respected state-accredited law school that enjoys broad community support . . . and get to work with a distinguished group of trustees, faculty, and alumni as colleagues.”

There is no question in Winick’s mind that it will not be long before Monterey College of Law grows beyond its well-deserved local reputation as a ‘hidden gem’ and is discovered by future law students who realize that it really is possible to attend law school in paradise.

For direct information, please feel free to contact:
Mitchel L. Winick
President and Dean
Monterey College of Law
mwinick@montereylaw.edu
831-582-4000 ext. 1015

or visit the law school's web page at: http://www.montereylaw.edu
Last edited by MCL Law Dean on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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MCL Law Dean
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:30 am

Lots of readers, not much discussion . . . but feel free to enter the fray over in TLS Forums > Law School Admissions > Non-ABA Law Dean takes Questions. As you will see, ask and I will answer . . . angry trolls included.

Dean Winick

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MCL Law Dean
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:41 am

No surprise that as dean of MCL, I frequently get asked what are the top reasons for choosing MCL over other law school options. My initial response is always the same . . . it is not a question of choosing MCL, it is a question of selecting the law school that is the best fit for your needs. Each prospective law student brings unique needs into the law school experience. For some it is geography, they want/need to be in a certain community. For others it is the cost, they have limited resources and need to get the best value for their educational investment. Some need additional academic support. Others are concerned about their job prospects after graduation. Some are concerned about all of the above!

If I had to pick the top three reasons that students select MCL, they would be value, local reputation, and the small size. Value is more than just the cost of tuition. Certainly when compared to the cost of private ABA law schools, our state-accredited program is one-third to one-half the cost. However, our recent alumni survey also indicated that for the graduating classes of 2009-2012, 88% were employed within 9 months of graduation and 91% are currently employed. That is the real value measure during a period in which national statistics report as many as 55% of new lawyers are unemployed or underemployed.

I would love to take full credit for local reputation, but since MCL is the only law school between San Jose and Santa Barbara . . . it isn’t really a fair comparison. That said, since 2005 we have improved our cumulative five-year bar pass rates from 39% to 67%, built a Platinum LEED courtroom and mediation center, added a first-year program in Santa Cruz, and were the first California accredited law school to be authorized to offer the Master of Legal Studies and the advanced LL.M. degrees in addition to our traditional J.D. There is no question that this growth has enhanced an already well deserved positive local reputation.

Finally, with class sizes of fewer than 40 students and a total student population of approximately 120 students, we can offer a personal touch to legal education that is not available in large law schools.

I think that these are all great reasons to select MCL . . . but only if it fits your personal needs.

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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:05 am

You're deliberately trying to deceive people. This has already been pointed out to you before. Please go back and edit your last post. MCL does not create lawyers at a rate of 88% of the class and you know it.

Either compare apples to apples or don't make the comparison.

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MCL Law Dean
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:29 am

BigZuck wrote:You're deliberately trying to deceive people. This has already been pointed out to you before. Please go back and edit your last post. MCL does not create lawyers at a rate of 88% of the class and you know it.

Either compare apples to apples or don't make the comparison.


Ahhh . . . BZ arrives . . . my bombastic stalker from the "other side". Happy to oblige additional information.

With 100% reporting from our graduating classes of 2009-2012:

Employment (9 months after graduation)
Employed . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 88%
Not employed, seeking work .. . . . . . . . . .5%
Not employed, not seeking work . . . . . . . 7%

Job Type/Job Status (9 months after graduation)
Bar Admission Required . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49%
JD Advantage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Remained in Pre-­Law School Job
- Other Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
- Other Non-­Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work . . . . . . . . 7%

Current Employment
Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
Not employed, not seeking work .. . . . . . . .7%
Retired . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%

rad lulz
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:35 am

So 43% have bar passage required jobs 9 months after graduation

How many are full time?

How many are not solo practitioners?

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John Everyman
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby John Everyman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:42 am

This section does seem deliberately misleading -

"88% were employed within 9 months of graduation and 91% are currently employed. That is the real value measure during a period in which national statistics report as many as 55% of new lawyers are unemployed or underemployed."

Only 49% of your graduates worked in jobs that required a law degree, with an additional 17% working in jobs that probably did not need a law degree to begin with, but I'll give you that anyway. That means 66% of your graduates become "lawyers." You use a percentage referring to all employment, lawyer or not (88%), and then compare it to the national average for producing lawyers from law schools (55%).

Liken the earlier poster said, that's not apples to apples...

Am I understanding something wrong? Can you explain the logic behind this argument?

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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:26 pm

Bombastic stalker?

Look, I don't appreciate pitchmen deliberately lying to people to try and siphon money off of them. That's all.

People's lives are at stake here. I would appreciate it if you took all of this seriously.

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Nova
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Nova » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:31 pm

John Everyman wrote:This section does seem deliberately misleading -

"88% were employed within 9 months of graduation and 91% are currently employed. That is the real value measure during a period in which national statistics report as many as 55% of new lawyers are unemployed or underemployed."


LSAC should use this as a LR question

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Otunga
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Otunga » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:42 pm

If you want a job in the school's immediate area, it's still probably better than most non-tier 1's given its relative affordability. But don't use that 88% stat - I doubt the majority of people attending the LS are attending for a non-legal job. I'd grant that there are possibly people already with established careers that simply want a legal education and are doing it "just because", but by and large that seems improbable.

Directed to the Dean or to any others: any suggestions for how one should read the JD Advantage stat? Is the JD credential something actively sought after by employers in these fields? Or is the JD something that's overlooked and simply not held against you, as it would be in many other jobs?

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MCL Law Dean
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:04 am

I certainly don't dismiss TLSer skepticism given the previous bad acts of law schools that have been caught "cooking" their statistic books related to admission and employment data. All I can suggest is that it isn't necessary to constantly beat the same drum that because it is bad some places (which it is) . . . therefore it must be bad everywhere (which it isn't).

Our statistics fairly reflect the small community market that I have tried to describe. For the most part, our JD advantage and "other professional" in combination with 20% who remain in the same job they had prior to law school reflect our community. Unlike the traditional ABA law schools where 99% of the students are attending for the express purpose of being licensed to practice law, our school also serves (and has for 43 years) a significant number of non-traditional adult, evening students who are getting their law degree to enhance their existing profession. Typical examples are realtors, financial planners, senior gov't employees, bankers, and small business owners. Since we are very small (120 students), it doesn't take very many of these to make our employment statistics significantly different that the typical ABA law school.

It is perfectly OK to hold the position that you personally disregard the value of attending a small, regional law school and practicing law and other professions in a small-town. That is certainly your prerogative and you have 204 ABA alternatives to find a better fit. What I am suggesting is that our experience is that there is a credible (and successful from our perspective) alternative that some potential law students might want to consider.

BigZuck
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:22 am

MCL Law Dean wrote:I certainly don't dismiss TLSer skepticism given the previous bad acts of law schools that have been caught "cooking" their statistic books related to admission and employment data. All I can suggest is that it isn't necessary to constantly beat the same drum that because it is bad some places (which it is) . . . therefore it must be bad everywhere (which it isn't).

Our statistics fairly reflect the small community market that I have tried to describe. For the most part, our JD advantage and "other professional" in combination with 20% who remain in the same job they had prior to law school reflect our community. Unlike the traditional ABA law schools where 99% of the students are attending for the express purpose of being licensed to practice law, our school also serves (and has for 43 years) a significant number of non-traditional adult, evening students who are getting their law degree to enhance their existing profession. Typical examples are realtors, financial planners, senior gov't employees, bankers, and small business owners. Since we are very small (120 students), it doesn't take very many of these to make our employment statistics significantly different that the typical ABA law school.

It is perfectly OK to hold the position that you personally disregard the value of attending a small, regional law school and practicing law and other professions in a small-town. That is certainly your prerogative and you have 204 ABA alternatives to find a better fit. What I am suggesting is that our experience is that there is a credible (and successful from our perspective) alternative that some potential law students might want to consider.


None of this addresses the fact that you willfully presented misleading employment statistics.

People on this site aren't stupid, and if you try to dupe people it's going to be pointed out. You're just here to advertise, you're not here to inform and start a dialogue. And that's all well and good, far be it from me to prevent you from further lining your pockets. But when you deliberately and repeatedly present false advertising, expect people to call you out for it. That's not trolling, and that's not you being stalked. Get over yourself and realize that while you might think you're important because your boomer striving has set you up with a title and a sweet 100K job built on the backs of so many tuition payments from law students that will never actually become lawyers, we don't owe you anything. And we especially aren't obligated to sit idly by while you lie to people.

Now, please, I ask you kindly- just present straightforward information. Don't lie to people. Truth in advertising is all I ask.

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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby patogordo » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:34 am

rad lulz wrote:So 43% have bar passage required jobs 9 months after graduation

How many are full time?

How many are not solo practitioners?

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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:55 am

patogordo wrote:
rad lulz wrote:So 43% have bar passage required jobs 9 months after graduation

How many are full time?

How many are not solo practitioners?


Here's from his other thread that goes a bit more in depth:


MCL Law Dean wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm sorry, but you're either willfully comparing apples to oranges or just lying. I don't see how there is any possible way that MCL is churning out lawyers at a rate of 88% of the class. That would mean it does a better job of creating lawyers than schools like UCLA and USC. There's just no way.

You're not comparing MCL's percentage of any old employment to Santa Clara's long term, full time JD required (aka lawyer) employment score are you?


BZ, I'll let you pick what and who you want to compare (See chart below). I know that it must be frustrating when the facts won't support you narrative. But "I don't agree, so you must be lying" ranks pretty low in effective argumentation. You certainly are entitled to your opinions and interpretations (from the safety of your anonymous avatar), but keep in mind that I have been willing to present information in my own name, and provide facts when available, and my best professional estimates when they are not.

MONTEREY COLLEGE OF LAW ALUMNI EMPLOYMENT SURVEY (2013)
Graduating Classes 2009-­2012
Number of Respondents . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Number of Surveys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Percent Survey Responses . . . . . . . . . . . . 100%
% of Graduates . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100%

Employment (9 months after graduation)
Employed . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 88%
Not employed, seeking work .. . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work . . . . . . . . 7%

Job Type/Job Status (9 months after graduation)
Bar Admission Required . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49%
JD Advantage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Remained in Pre-­Law School Job
- Other Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20%
- Other Non-­Professional . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Not employed, not seeking work . . . . . . . . 7%

Current Employment
Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91%
Not employed, seeking work . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
Not employed, not seeking work .. . . . . . . . 7%
Retired . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%

Job Tenure
Full Time, long-­term . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83%
Full Time, short-­term . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8%
Part­‐time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . 9%

If Working in a Law Firm -­ Firm Size
Solo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
2 to 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 67%
11 to 25 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13%
26 to 50 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
51 to 100 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
More than 100 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0%

If Working in a Law Firm -­ What Type
Private Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74%
Public Agency . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14%
Non-­Profit Practice . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
In-­house Corporate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
Academic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . 5%

If Working in a Law Firm/Public Agency -­ Position
Attorney . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74%
Judicial Officer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . 0%
Paralegal/Law Clerk . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16%
Administrator . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
Dean/Professor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%

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mi-chan17
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby mi-chan17 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:28 am

I'm from one of those counties in California with a CBA law school, and I have a couple questions:

1) In doing the rough math, it looks like MCL is about $10k more expensive (over the four years) than the school where I'm from. Is there a reason for this disparity? Given that you've said that these schools are geared towards providing a more-affordable option for people in these communities, I'm a little surprised by the size of the gap.

2) I took BarBri with the folks from my hometown's CBA school, and in that sitting of the bar, not a single one of them passed. Zero. Some were taking it for the second or third time. Now, they seem pretty determined; I think there is a good chance that they pass eventually. That said, it is expensive and time consuming to have to repeat the bar. How many of MCL's students pass the bar the first time they take it? I know that's not what's measured when the CBA schools talk about bar passage rate, but I think it's still worth discussing for prospective students.

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MCL Law Dean
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:22 pm

Here is the 2013 cost (tuition only) for the completed J.D. degree for ABA and CALS law schools in California. As you can see there is a very wide range of costs. There are so many factors involved in individual school pricing that it would be difficult to single-out specific factors. Each of us could probably identify some of the key items, private vs. public, urban vs, regional, reputation, ranking, enrollment, endowment, etc. As far as I know, this is the only place that a full comparison of all of the accredited California law school tuition costs has been compiled since the CALS are not included in LSAC, NALP, or even LST.

$157,794 University of Southern California, Gould School of Law
$152,406 Stanford University Law School
$148,692 University of California, Davis School of Law
$144,204 University of California, Berkeley, School of Law
$140,418 University of California Hastings College of the Law
$135,663 University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) School of Law
$134,940 Pepperdine University School of Law
$134,151 University of California, Irvine School of Law
$132,690 Loyola Law School, Loyola Marymount University
$131,580 University of San Diego School of Law
$131,550 Southwestern Law School
$131,100 California Western School of Law
$131,040 Santa Clara University School of Law
$130,608 Chapman University School of Law
$129,135 University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law
$127,092 University of San Francisco School of Law
$126,030 Golden Gate University School of Law
$126,000 Thomas Jefferson School of Law
$122,196 University of La Verne College of Law
$120,780 Whittier Law School
$118,800 Western State College of Law
$77,400 San Joaquin College of Law
$74,250 Trinity Law School
$72,660 JFK Law School
$70,550 University of West LA
$68,000 San Francisco Law School
$66,650 Monterey College of Law
$59,724 Lincoln Law School - San Jose
$58,632 Glendale College of Law
$57,620 Empire College of Law
$56,760 Santa Barbara/Ventura Colleges of Law
$55,860 Humphreys College of Law
$40,420 Lincoln Law School - Sacramento
$40,236 Cal Northern Law School
$31,080 Southern California Institute of Law

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Hipster but Athletic
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Hipster but Athletic » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:29 pm

Seems reasonable to me. Basically like choosing to go to PA school instead of MD/DO.

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L’Étranger
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby L’Étranger » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:46 pm

For the most part, the TLS community is interested in long term legal employment in the fields of big law, mid law, big gov/fed, and PI.

Are you trying to say that long term legal employment in the fields of big law, mid law, big gov/fed, and PI is a reasonable expectation for an MCL grad?

Or, rather, are you pitching something else entirely here? It's unclear to me at least, and I think that's why a lot of posters are getting after you.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:52 pm

I can't think of a worse idea than going one of these scam schools.

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North
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby North » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:59 pm

Don't know why this guy insists on generating negative Google search results for his trap school. He's doing our work for us.

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MCL Law Dean
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Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:59 am

L’Étranger wrote:For the most part, the TLS community is interested in long term legal employment in the fields of big law, mid law, big gov/fed, and PI.

Are you trying to say that long term legal employment in the fields of big law, mid law, big gov/fed, and PI is a reasonable expectation for an MCL grad?

Or, rather, are you pitching something else entirely here? It's unclear to me at least, and I think that's why a lot of posters are getting after you.


No question that you are right about the vast majority of the TLS readers. However, if you read beyond the HYS discussion posts, there are quite a few thoughtful discussions among those who are not in the top 3-5% (or at least choose to post as if they are). Where I agree with TLSers is that there are changes long overdue in legal education.

For example, I am not aware of a single law or law related job in our tri-county area that would pay enough as a starting salary to service a $150K law school tuition loan, plus interest. Not one. Senior DAs, superior Court Judges, (and small law school deans) in these communities make about what is advertised as starting associate salaries in BigLaw. And yet, we still need starting DAs, Public Defenders, and new private practitioners to serve our community. What I have suggested from the very beginning is that non-urban markets that share this characteristic would benefit from a law school model that provides legal education at a cost that reflects the reality of the local and regional markets. In our case, MCL has been doing that for 43 years, so my point is that it is possible.

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MCL Law Dean
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby MCL Law Dean » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:12 am

North wrote:Don't know why this guy insists on generating negative Google search results for his trap school. He's doing our work for us.


North, as someone in the position to pay sticker at UVA, I don't really think that you are my market, but you are obviously in a great school. How did your first set of OCIs go for last summer? Is the plan working to get to BigLaw?

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Hipster but Athletic
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Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:15 pm

Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Hipster but Athletic » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:40 am

How much do you make each year, before taxes?

BigZuck
Posts: 10851
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:02 am

MCL Law Dean wrote:
North wrote:Don't know why this guy insists on generating negative Google search results for his trap school. He's doing our work for us.


North, as someone in the position to pay sticker at UVA, I don't really think that you are my market, but you are obviously in a great school. How did your first set of OCIs go for last summer? Is the plan working to get to BigLaw?


What does North's choice of school have to do with anything?

Also, as someone concerned with e-stalking, this is kind of creepy.

Also number 2, we see what you're doing and hoping someone gets sticker-pwned is not a good look there, Dean.

Mal Reynolds
Posts: 12630
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Re: Monterey College of Law - an accredited non-ABA Option

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:20 am

MCL Law Dean wrote:
North wrote:Don't know why this guy insists on generating negative Google search results for his trap school. He's doing our work for us.


North, as someone in the position to pay sticker at UVA, I don't really think that you are my market, but you are obviously in a great school. How did your first set of OCIs go for last summer? Is the plan working to get to BigLaw?


LOLOLOLOL




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