JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

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DefyingGravity
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JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby DefyingGravity » Fri May 04, 2012 5:34 pm

How easy is it to get consulting gigs straight out of Stanford or Harvard? Do most people self-select into legal employment, or is it relatively easy to find consulting/business oriented work in the private sector?

truevines
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby truevines » Fri May 04, 2012 5:59 pm

DefyingGravity wrote:How easy is it to get consulting gigs straight out of Stanford or Harvard? Do most people self-select into legal employment, or is it relatively easy to find consulting/business oriented work in the private sector?


If you want consulting, go get a Ph. D. in engineering or a MBA.

DefyingGravity
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby DefyingGravity » Fri May 04, 2012 6:01 pm

truevines wrote:
DefyingGravity wrote:How easy is it to get consulting gigs straight out of Stanford or Harvard? Do most people self-select into legal employment, or is it relatively easy to find consulting/business oriented work in the private sector?


If you want consulting, go get a Ph. D. in engineering or a MBA.


Would apply for MBA, but I lack work experience due to serious illness. I am 28 years old and a liberal arts major.

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Shooter
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Shooter » Fri May 04, 2012 6:07 pm

A lot of people who enroll at Stanford, Harvard and other top law schools dream of becoming diplomats, politicians, CEOs, professors, supreme court justices and partners at enormous multinational law firms. So I would say that aspiring to be a consultant is pretty manageable.

Full disclosure: I am a 0L.

DeweyWins
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby DeweyWins » Fri May 04, 2012 6:09 pm

I can't speak to Stanford or Harvard, but McKinsey comes to EIP every year at Columbia.

DefyingGravity
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby DefyingGravity » Fri May 04, 2012 6:14 pm

DeweyWins wrote:I can't speak to Stanford or Harvard, but McKinsey comes to EIP every year at Columbia.


McKinsey also comes to Stanford and Harvard, but I have been unable to find info. re:hiring of JDs at top consulting firms.

Anonymous User
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 04, 2012 6:37 pm

I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.

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JustE
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby JustE » Fri May 04, 2012 6:43 pm

Michigan?

Morgan12Oak
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Morgan12Oak » Fri May 04, 2012 7:11 pm

Considering you mention you lack work experience, consulting would not be easy for you.

09042014
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby 09042014 » Fri May 04, 2012 7:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.


I'd imagine they are looking for people with their typical background, significant business experience or consulting experience.

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englawyer
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby englawyer » Fri May 04, 2012 7:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.


I'd imagine they are looking for people with their typical background, significant business experience or consulting experience.


+1. its significantly harder than getting a law firm SA

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TaipeiMort
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby TaipeiMort » Fri May 04, 2012 8:10 pm

People should not answer if they really don't know.

McKinsey is much more open to taking Non-MBAs than Bain and BCG. Getting Bain and BCG are much like getting a firm that doesn't come to OCI-- you send in your transcript and resume/ apply online and then they decide if they want to see you.

McKinsey actively recruits from the law schools of the T5 business schools (Northwestern, Penn, Stanford, Chicago, Harvard) and Yale (which has a TTT MBA program but obviously has the best students).

I would guess that they also recruit at other law schools with top B-programs like UVA, Duke, and Berkeley, and Columbia.

Really if you get an interview with McKinsey depends largely upon your LSAT and SAT scores. This will be especially true if you mass mail them.

Round 1 is a standardized (google MKPST) test which is like the LSAT logical reasoning mixed with guestimate questions which approximate the case method. You shouldn't have time to finish the test, and no one has gotten them all right in years. I found it harder than the LSAT because about half was impossible to prep for. About 1/3 of my group made it through the test round.

Round 2 is a regional case interview session. A huge portion are cut here. You have about 2 weeks to prep after passing the test and you should really get together with some MBA students and practice case method. Read "case in point."

Round 3 is a final case interview session at the office they've assigned you to work at.

About 1/50 people make it from the beginning of the process to the end. They really don't care as much about the school you've come from once you get to Round 1. It is more about analytical abilities as demonstrated by the case method and standardized test.

Geneva
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Geneva » Fri May 04, 2012 8:57 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:People should not answer if they really don't know.

McKinsey is much more open to taking Non-MBAs than Bain and BCG. Getting Bain and BCG are much like getting a firm that doesn't come to OCI-- you send in your transcript and resume/ apply online and then they decide if they want to see you.

McKinsey actively recruits from the law schools of the T5 business schools (Northwestern, Penn, Stanford, Chicago, Harvard) and Yale (which has a TTT MBA program but obviously has the best students).

I would guess that they also recruit at other law schools with top B-programs like UVA, Duke, and Berkeley, and Columbia.

Really if you get an interview with McKinsey depends largely upon your LSAT and SAT scores. This will be especially true if you mass mail them.

Round 1 is a standardized (google MKPST) test which is like the LSAT logical reasoning mixed with guestimate questions which approximate the case method. You shouldn't have time to finish the test, and no one has gotten them all right in years. I found it harder than the LSAT because about half was impossible to prep for. About 1/3 of my group made it through the test round.

Round 2 is a regional case interview session. A huge portion are cut here. You have about 2 weeks to prep after passing the test and you should really get together with some MBA students and practice case method. Read "case in point."

Round 3 is a final case interview session at the office they've assigned you to work at.

About 1/50 people make it from the beginning of the process to the end. They really don't care as much about the school you've come from once you get to Round 1. It is more about analytical abilities as demonstrated by the case method and standardized test.

How would you suggest we prep for the portion of the test that it is possible to prep for? Thanks for walking us through this.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Na_Swatch » Fri May 04, 2012 9:03 pm

englawyer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.


I'd imagine they are looking for people with their typical background, significant business experience or consulting experience.


+1. its significantly harder than getting a law firm SA


Actually from looking at HLS's EIP data basically whoever wants to interview for Consulting gets an initial round and the actual offer rates are quite high for anybody who follows through with all 3 rounds. I think the stats are something like 3 out of 12 inital interviewees for McKinsey got offers but its unknown how many people did the initial interview as just a whim.

The main thing is just most people don't self select/ go through the necessary prep for Consulting jobs (and usually want to try out working as an actual lawyer for a little bit). Also, many of the people who aren't interested in being a lawyer spring for something a bit more specific than consulting since they have a better idea of what they're interested in (like venture capital work, teaching positions, or securities trading).

Geneva
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Geneva » Fri May 04, 2012 9:07 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
englawyer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.


I'd imagine they are looking for people with their typical background, significant business experience or consulting experience.


+1. its significantly harder than getting a law firm SA


Actually from looking at HLS's EIP data basically whoever wants to interview for Consulting gets an initial round and the actual offer rates are quite high for anybody who follows through with all 3 rounds. I think the stats are something like 3 out of 12 inital interviewees for McKinsey got offers but its unknown how many people did the initial interview as just a whim.

The main thing is just most people don't self select/ go through the necessary prep for Consulting jobs (and usually want to try out working as an actual lawyer for a little bit). Also, many of the people who aren't interested in being a lawyer spring for something a bit more specific than consulting since they have a better idea of what they're interested in (like venture capital work, teaching positions, or securities trading).

What is the necessary prep for consulting job? What would you suggest OLs without business background do in order to become competitive for consulting work?

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TaipeiMort
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby TaipeiMort » Fri May 04, 2012 9:30 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
englawyer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.


I'd imagine they are looking for people with their typical background, significant business experience or consulting experience.


+1. its significantly harder than getting a law firm SA


Actually from looking at HLS's EIP data basically whoever wants to interview for Consulting gets an initial round and the actual offer rates are quite high for anybody who follows through with all 3 rounds. I think the stats are something like 3 out of 12 inital interviewees for McKinsey got offers but its unknown how many people did the initial interview as just a whim.

The main thing is just most people don't self select/ go through the necessary prep for Consulting jobs (and usually want to try out working as an actual lawyer for a little bit). Also, many of the people who aren't interested in being a lawyer spring for something a bit more specific than consulting since they have a better idea of what they're interested in (like venture capital work, teaching positions, or securities trading).


This is true. I think that there is a ton of self-selection going on. People at top law schools likely have the necessary mental firepower. Prepping is difficult work though. If you want to get in, you really have to be dedicated to it and learn how to play the case game. It is like LSAT 2.0. The percentage of all grad students is 1/50 from start to finish. I would believe that 1/4 of HLS people make it through. I know at Chicago they brought in about 30 people to take the first round. about 12/30 were Chicago or NU people. After the first round 5/20 PhDs and MDs were left, and 10/12 law students remained.

I honestly believe that law people at top schools are way better prepared/ have stronger analytical skills than any other graduate discipline. The GMAT is 10x easier than the LSAT. Medical school is a memorization test. Other grad programs are either quant or flowery-writing/lifer-student-based

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cahesu
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby cahesu » Fri May 04, 2012 9:31 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:People should not answer if they really don't know.

McKinsey is much more open to taking Non-MBAs than Bain and BCG. Getting Bain and BCG are much like getting a firm that doesn't come to OCI-- you send in your transcript and resume/ apply online and then they decide if they want to see you.

McKinsey actively recruits from the law schools of the T5 business schools (Northwestern, Penn, Stanford, Chicago, Harvard) and Yale (which has a TTT MBA program but obviously has the best students).

I would guess that they also recruit at other law schools with top B-programs like UVA, Duke, and Berkeley, and Columbia.

Really if you get an interview with McKinsey depends largely upon your LSAT and SAT scores. This will be especially true if you mass mail them.

Round 1 is a standardized (google MKPST) test which is like the LSAT logical reasoning mixed with guestimate questions which approximate the case method. You shouldn't have time to finish the test, and no one has gotten them all right in years. I found it harder than the LSAT because about half was impossible to prep for. About 1/3 of my group made it through the test round.

Round 2 is a regional case interview session. A huge portion are cut here. You have about 2 weeks to prep after passing the test and you should really get together with some MBA students and practice case method. Read "case in point."

Round 3 is a final case interview session at the office they've assigned you to work at.

About 1/50 people make it from the beginning of the process to the end. They really don't care as much about the school you've come from once you get to Round 1. It is more about analytical abilities as demonstrated by the case method and standardized test.


I think this list of law schools looks roughly accurate. I can also confirm that McKinsey recruits at NYU Law by interviewing during OCI.

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englawyer
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby englawyer » Fri May 04, 2012 10:01 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
englawyer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm at HYS and can confirm that MBB makes routine hires from here and interviews at the law school.


I'd imagine they are looking for people with their typical background, significant business experience or consulting experience.


+1. its significantly harder than getting a law firm SA


Actually from looking at HLS's EIP data basically whoever wants to interview for Consulting gets an initial round and the actual offer rates are quite high for anybody who follows through with all 3 rounds. I think the stats are something like 3 out of 12 inital interviewees for McKinsey got offers but its unknown how many people did the initial interview as just a whim.

The main thing is just most people don't self select/ go through the necessary prep for Consulting jobs (and usually want to try out working as an actual lawyer for a little bit). Also, many of the people who aren't interested in being a lawyer spring for something a bit more specific than consulting since they have a better idea of what they're interested in (like venture capital work, teaching positions, or securities trading).


if you bid correctly you can get an "initial round" interview with literally anywhere, including Wachtell etc. in fact, its often easier to get screens at those places because most people rationally self-select out. for mck, in the "worldwide" category in 2009, which is probably the default, they made 0 offers with 37 interviewees.

i am not saying its impossible i just don't think its "easy" and stand by my assertion that 2L law firm SA is significantly easier to get. if anything, its easier because there are less interview rounds and less prep to do for each round. also, to prep on the mck timeline, you will probably have to do it simultaneously with callbacks which is a nightmare. unless you prep pre-eip of course!

chasgoose
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby chasgoose » Sat May 05, 2012 12:07 am

The other big problem with doing the McKinsey interview process during the law school interview season is that I imagine that it puts a lot of extra pressure on you during what is already a pretty intense process. I did the consulting interview stuff in undergrad and it was a lot of work. Considering that you need to be on point and poised during your callbacks and whatnot, adding McKinsey to the mix can be to your detriment.

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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby flcath » Sat May 05, 2012 12:31 am

Shooter wrote:A lot of people who enroll at Stanford, Harvard and other top law schools dream of becoming diplomats, politicians, CEOs, professors, supreme court justices and partners at enormous multinational law firms. So I would say that aspiring to be a consultant is pretty manageable.

Full disclosure: I am a 0L.

Lol, this is schtick, right?

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TaipeiMort
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat May 05, 2012 2:21 am

chasgoose wrote:The other big problem with doing the McKinsey interview process during the law school interview season is that I imagine that it puts a lot of extra pressure on you during what is already a pretty intense process. I did the consulting interview stuff in undergrad and it was a lot of work. Considering that you need to be on point and poised during your callbacks and whatnot, adding McKinsey to the mix can be to your detriment.


This is what offed me. I had a really strong desire to work at a particular type of firm. Or Mckinsey. I had to interview during OCI for my Mckinsey callback, which harmed me on the killer late rounds. I got the firm I wanted, so it didn't matter. But, I would highly recommend to wait until 3L year, where it is actually easier to get a job to interview.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby Na_Swatch » Sat May 05, 2012 1:41 pm

englawyer wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
Actually from looking at HLS's EIP data basically whoever wants to interview for Consulting gets an initial round and the actual offer rates are quite high for anybody who follows through with all 3 rounds. I think the stats are something like 3 out of 12 inital interviewees for McKinsey got offers but its unknown how many people did the initial interview as just a whim.

The main thing is just most people don't self select/ go through the necessary prep for Consulting jobs (and usually want to try out working as an actual lawyer for a little bit). Also, many of the people who aren't interested in being a lawyer spring for something a bit more specific than consulting since they have a better idea of what they're interested in (like venture capital work, teaching positions, or securities trading).


if you bid correctly you can get an "initial round" interview with literally anywhere, including Wachtell etc. in fact, its often easier to get screens at those places because most people rationally self-select out. for mck, in the "worldwide" category in 2009, which is probably the default, they made 0 offers with 37 interviewees.

i am not saying its impossible i just don't think its "easy" and stand by my assertion that 2L law firm SA is significantly easier to get. if anything, its easier because there are less interview rounds and less prep to do for each round. also, to prep on the mck timeline, you will probably have to do it simultaneously with callbacks which is a nightmare. unless you prep pre-eip of course!



Found it, here's the data for McKinsey interviews at HLS in EIP 2010:

2L- So 35 did the initial interview, 33 were invited for 2nd round, but only 4 accepted. Out of those 4, 4 were offered a position.
3L- 28 initial, 23 invited, 3 accepted, 2 offered.

That's a 6/7 offer rate for those who followed through. Of course again we have self-selection problem and clearly you have to put in the effort. But if you do put in the effort I don't think its necessarily that much harder to go into consulting then biglaw at EIP. Just very few people choose to do so.

DefyingGravity
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Re: JD from top school--how easy is to to find consulting work?

Postby DefyingGravity » Sun May 06, 2012 10:56 pm

This is very encouraging. Thank you for the detailed information.




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