Penn 3L Taking Questions Forum

[lawscholar20]

Is the school (faculty) into PI? From looking at the website it seems that they try to push it as a strength. I really am not convinced about PI and it seems that Penn has so many other great things to offer. Getting Wharton on your resume is awesome!!!. Would the adcomms look negatively upon me for trying to ride the PI ticket into Penn? Like "Why are you coming here if your interested in PI?"

[mrm2083]

At what point did you start the Wharton program?

I started the Wharton program 2nd semester of 1L year. I think that was a credited decision since it allowed me to discuss it at length during OCI.

How did you take a class at Wharton during 1L? If we plan on doing the Wharton certificate is there any way we can sign up for it now so we can put it on our resume for OCI?

[Veyron]

How did your friends between bottom 1/3 and median do?

What firms should a median-ish student bid assuming he wants to do litigation and wants to make market or near market but doesn't care about vault rank or geography?

Friends: The ones who had good social skills, kept networking, and rethought their approaches got jobs (some big law, more midlaw, and some other interesting jobs like in-house, govt., and starting their own companies); the ones who were social duds and/or became depressed and stopped looking/trying didn't.

Bid: If you want to get strategic about it, I wouldn't bid on any firm that is ranked in the top 30. I would use all my bids for 30-100 and focus on firms that still have large classes. During OCI, I would still meet with any rep I could talk to: in between interviews, after interviews, early in the morning whatever. Just tell them you bid and lost and really wanted an interview, add some interesting reason why you want to be at their firm, hand them resume, grades, writing sample, rec. In terms of geography, you are only getting an offer if the firm thinks you have geographic ties to that city. Don't waste your time interviewing for an office in a city you have no ties to. Now, that doesn't mean you need to have lived there. You can have family there, your sig other is/works/moving there, you vacationed there, etc. Just have some solid reason as to why you are interested. As for litigation, 80% of the jobs ITE are litigation-based so don't worry about that. However, I would never go into an interview saying I only want lit. The credited approach is saying: I prefer litigation, but am definitely willing to try my hand at any transactional work I can get my hands on this summer.

Thanks for this. How does one go about getting midlaw? Lots of the good firms in my home market fall into this category.

Caveat: the advice I am relating to you is what I have heard from my friends who did indeed find midlaw jobs. With that said, I think the best way is to really target those specific firms. You have to make them feel like they are your top choice because most people are clearly gunning for biglaw. So I would start off by going to martindale.com and looking for midlaw firms in the geographic locations that you have ties to; basically this consists of firms from 40 - 150 people (you can select these size ranges in the search engine). After you get a list of firms, you really have to target them. Thus, you want to reach out to alumni that you have connections with: ethnic background, UGrad, Grad school, law school etc. Tell them that you would very much appreciate it if they would be willing to chat with you via telephone or in person over lunch/coffee some time just to discuss the legal market and maybe a specific field of law you are interested in (that they specialize in as well). Network from there: tell them you are looking for employment and would appreciate it if they would consider if and when they have openings and if not, then to pass along your resume. Target your resume and cover letter to small firms - have all that ready. Have like 20 or so meetings scheduled for this summer or whenever and chances are you will get multiple interviews/offers by Sept. I heard of this strategy working very well for Penn students who were interested in midlaw. The key is being social and likable.

TYFT, I'll work harder on my alumni outreach. There are some Penn alums that are partners at a couple of the firms and its good to hear that they are generally pretty receptive.

As far as the SAs go as midlaw firms, are these the same feeders into the junior associate positions as are SA firms at BIGLAW firms?

[DancesWithSmurfs]

Is the school (faculty) into PI? From looking at the website it seems that they try to push it as a strength. I really am not convinced about PI and it seems that Penn has so many other great things to offer. Getting Wharton on your resume is awesome!!!. Would the adcomms look negatively upon me for trying to ride the PI ticket into Penn? Like "Why are you coming here if your interested in PI?"

So I looked into PI a bit here at Penn, so I could better answer your question. From what I hear the program is better than I described it. The problem is no one stays the course with PI; Penn places pretty highly in biglaw and once students spend their first summer at a firm and get sizable compensation, the majority drop their PI career paths. You can't blame them really; most people have substantial loans, which are really tough to pay off w/ a PI job (though there is loan forgiveness if you qualify) and very easy if you have biglaw. Yeah the faculty is pretty big in PI: I can think of three professors off the top of my head who do a lot of it.

No, the adcomms wouldn't look negatively on you if you talked about PI in your Personal Statement. In fact, they would probably enjoy hearing about that more than the usual corp. law spiel. Several of my closest friends wrote about PI and started out on that path.

[niederbomb]

What types of companies hire Penn students in-house right after graduation? Did these students have to have some special background (like IP)?

I am possibly very, very interested in this line of work.

A strong and well-documented interest in IP or previous work experience at that co. Then again, a connection or two never hurt. In-house is very difficult to get right after graduation as most cos. don't want to waste money training you (you are useless for years). Also, you would limit yourself in terms of future employment/lateraling. The credited career path is biglaw -> in-house, but I'm sure you know that already.

What I thought. However, on ASW, and this thread, some people are claiming that Penn students sometimes get in-house right after graduation. I guess this is the exception and not the rule?

Also, for a 1L summer position, would you guys recommend trying to network locally or trying to get something back home? How easy is it to get something locally in PA, DE, NJ, or NY?

I have relatives in Wilmington, and I think trying to get my foot in the door in DE for OCI (beaches, countryside, low crime, no income tax!) would be amazing.

[DancesWithSmurfs]

At what point did you start the Wharton program?

I started the Wharton program 2nd semester of 1L year. I think that was a credited decision since it allowed me to discuss it at length during OCI.

How did you take a class at Wharton during 1L? If we plan on doing the Wharton certificate is there any way we can sign up for it now so we can put it on our resume for OCI?

I started by choosing an elective taught at the law school that counts for the Wharton certificate - everyone interested in the program must take 1 Law school course that is approved for the wharton certificate program.

Idk if it has changed, but during my 1L, an email went around and asked that all 1Ls interested in the WC program to fill out a specific form and turn it into the Registrar. I believe it was during the fall. Then just add Wharton School to your resume and say WC candidate XXXX like the JD.

[DancesWithSmurfs]

What types of companies hire Penn students in-house right after graduation? Did these students have to have some special background (like IP)?

I am possibly very, very interested in this line of work.

A strong and well-documented interest in IP or previous work experience at that co. Then again, a connection or two never hurt. In-house is very difficult to get right after graduation as most cos. don't want to waste money training you (you are useless for years). Also, you would limit yourself in terms of future employment/lateraling. The credited career path is biglaw -> in-house, but I'm sure you know that already.

What I thought. However, on ASW, and this thread, some people are claiming that Penn students sometimes get in-house right after graduation. I guess this is the exception and not the rule?

Also, for a 1L summer position, would you guys recommend trying to network locally or trying to get something back home? How easy is it to get something locally in PA, DE, NJ, or NY?

I have relatives in Wilmington, and I think trying to get my foot in the door in DE for OCI (beaches, countryside, low crime, no income tax!) would be amazing.

Exception for sure. I believe that to be the case bc it isn't the safest career path, few of those jobs exist, and most students are lured by the higher paying placements. Network everywhere as much as possible. The most successful individuals (in terms of securing 1L summer positions at firms were those that: had a connection, went back home, and applied through a diversity program. During 1L summer it is the exception to get a firm job - most people stick with judges.

Yes Quality of Life is key. No point in working so hard if you can't enjoy the benefits. Take fed courts with the DE judge, get an A, and then ask for referrals/recs from the prof = $.

[khodorko]

What types of companies hire Penn students in-house right after graduation? Did these students have to have some special background (like IP)?

I am possibly very, very interested in this line of work.

A strong and well-documented interest in IP or previous work experience at that co. Then again, a connection or two never hurt. In-house is very difficult to get right after graduation as most cos. don't want to waste money training you (you are useless for years). Also, you would limit yourself in terms of future employment/lateraling. The credited career path is biglaw -> in-house, but I'm sure you know that already.

What I thought. However, on ASW, and this thread, some people are claiming that Penn students sometimes get in-house right after graduation. I guess this is the exception and not the rule?

Also, for a 1L summer position, would you guys recommend trying to network locally or trying to get something back home? How easy is it to get something locally in PA, DE, NJ, or NY?

I have relatives in Wilmington, and I think trying to get my foot in the door in DE for OCI (beaches, countryside, low crime, no income tax!) would be amazing.

Exception for sure. I believe that to be the case bc it isn't the safest career path, few of those jobs exist, and most students are lured by the higher paying placements. Network everywhere as much as possible. The most successful individuals (in terms of securing 1L summer positions at firms were those that: had a connection, went back home, and applied through a diversity program. During 1L summer it is the exception to get a firm job - most people stick with judges.

Yes Quality of Life is key. No point in working so hard if you can't enjoy the benefits. Take fed courts with the DE judge, get an A, and then ask for referrals/recs from the prof = $.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to all of us. Your input is greatly appreciated and super helpful. Where did you work for your 1L summer (firm or courts)?

[dudeman2012]

What is it like living in the middle of Pennsylvania? Does it get annoying dealing with all of the football drunks and being away from the big city?