The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[shbe0701]

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[Ljsmith2]

To OP- Thanks a lot for taking questions from us. I have two question- for the firms you would consider "big law", do you have any idea of competitive GPA ranges for those firms coming from a t-14? Also, when do you recommend targeting firms that don't come to OCI at a particular school? Would July be too early?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

You'll want to be in the top half of the class from a T-14 or one of the big name coastal schools. The trick coming from one of these schools is getting the interview, as most Minnesota firms don't participate in traditional OCI at these schools. July is not too early at all to begin contacting the firms, especially given how law schools keep bumping up their OCI events.

[Martin34]

Anyone know which firms in the twin cities give fed clerkship bonuses?

[masked kavana]

I know you've said that attending UM on OoS tuition is a bad idea but what about with a half tuition scholarship?

Also, I've read that being a minority and speaking another language can be a boost in hiring. Is that true at the big minneapolis firms too?

Thanks!

[rickgrimes69]

Any time. Keep in mind you can do a few years in NY, Boston or DC and then lateral back to a Minnesota firm for your mid-level years as well. Minnesota firms are becoming more aware of the benefits of the lateral market for picking up attorneys with large firm experience on the coasts. This is becoming necessary as midlevel associates lateral out of the Minnesota firms to go in-house.

What would you recommend between Duke, Northwestern and Michigan, all at sticker?

[italianlaw]

Hello everyone,
I am a 0L looking for some advice. I am currently trying to decide between the University of St. Thomas (with a 10,000 scholarship per year) and Creighton University (paying full tuition). I will not need to take out full loans, however I am still looking at having to take out around 80k in debt. Undergrad debt is no worry as there is none. Opinions, pros and cons, and any other type of advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.

[toughdecision2012]

I have a very tough decision to make in the next few days and I would appreciate all the help I can get. Presently, I have 2 full-ride offers from William Mitchell and Iowa. Now I know that probably seems like an easy choice, except the Iowa scholarship has a top 37% stipulation for years 2 and 3, while the Mitchell one is 100% guaranteed all 3 years. I'm pretty sure I want to end up in Minnesota, but it would be nice to have options outside of the Twin Cities. I definitely would prefer a big law job if possible. Is it worth the risk at Iowa, where I could be on the hook for 80k but would likely have a better shot at big law, or should I take the sure thing at Mitchell? Thanks ahead of time for any insight you can provide.

[minnbills]

I'd say Mitchell.

Iowa's stipulation is terrifying. Moreover, the only market UIowa is going to open up to you is... Iowa. Unless you really like it there I don't think it's much of a benefit, it's not exactly a robust market. Full ride at William Mitchell is a solid option if you want to stay in MN.

Is UMN not an option? I turned down a full ride there for UMN, so I'm surprised it's not on the table for you.

[toughdecision2012]

I was waitlisted at UMN. It was my top choice but I guess I didn't have the numbers. At this point, even if I get in sometime over the summer, I'll probably stick with one of the full ride options. With the market being so tight, I think coming out with zero debt would be a huge asset. Am right in thinking that?

[Nova]

As someone with Iowa ties, I shake my head at their sTTTips. I dont know how that flys for them when they are trying to negotiate against peers. My guess is they over offer and bank on many admits being over confident in their skillz.

Since you want to practice in MN, I would suggest that you take the full ride at WM. It will save you a ton of stress.

[minnbills]

Dont give up hope yet- UMN seems to be having a hard time getting people to matriculate and has been throwing money around to people accepted off the waitlist.

Coming out with no debt is definitely a good thing, and I agree with Nova too. Even if employment doesn't pan out the way you'd like it to, you won't be drowning in debt. You run a serious risk at Iowa of losing that security blanket. top 1/3 or so would keep me up at night.

[midwestrocks]

A nervous rising 2L here wondering if any current U of M students, grads, or the OP could answer my question. I finished my 1L year right around top 20% (I don't know that for sure, based that number off of last year's quartiles) and am wondering what my chances are at landing a good paying private gig. I know that the U only places around 15% into biglaw, but I've also heard that there are a decent amount of so-called 'midlaw' firms in the Twin Cities that pay market, or close to it.

With OCI coming up, I'm hoping that someone with some wisdom could give me at least a reasonable approximation of what my chances are (not just with OCI, I know those jobs are hard to come by). I don't know if I'm on a journal yet, but I petitioned and am relatively confident that I'll make it onto a secondary at least.

Thanks much

[Ljsmith2]

bump

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

From a T10/T14, you'll want to be in the top 50% or higher to be competitive.

Don't go to Creighton if you want to work in MN. MN firms like to hire from the local schools (UMN, UST, WM or Iowa/Wisc).

To the MN student, if you are in the top 20%, you should be fine. Use NALP directory to find the midsized firms (technically, all but two or three MN firms are Midlaw). None are really BigLaw as that term is used in this forum.

The stips at Iowa are not good. You should look at UST and WM very hard. In the end though, you should figure out which school will be cheapest (including rent, etc.). You don't want much debt if you want to practice in MN due to the lower salaries for associates.

[rickgrimes69]

From a T10/T14, you'll want to be in the top 50% or higher to be competitive.

...

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Typically, you'll want to be in the top 25%-30% to be confident in getting a position, but firms will go deeper into the class at the top 10 schools. You should be in the top half if you want a shot at the big two or three firms in MN. Connections will play a large role in whether you get an interview or a position.

Just do as well as you can during your first year and see where you end up. If you're not in the top half, you should start using your connections around the city to try and obtain an interview.

[midwestlawstudent]

Thanks for taking questions OP. I have a few more, coming from a midwest T-14

I have limited, but existing, ties to MN. What's the best way to demonstrate that I really want to be there to practice? (I really do). Besides just saying that, I'm not really sure how to get it across.

How do MN firms look at journals that are not law review? Favorably?

At OCI, is it best to specify a practice area? Or typically since MN firms are a bit smaller, is it best to be open to more areas? I am interested in transactional more than litigation, but don't want to pigeon-hole myself out of a job.

Lastly, do you know anything about Winthrop and what type of candidate they look for? Grades, etc.

Thanks a ton.

[rickgrimes69]

Typically, you'll want to be in the top 25%-30% to be confident in getting a position, but firms will go deeper into the class at the top 10 schools. You should be in the top half if you want a shot at the big two or three firms in MN. Connections will play a large role in whether you get an interview or a position.

Just do as well as you can during your first year and see where you end up. If you're not in the top half, you should start using your connections around the city to try and obtain an interview.

Thanks for the advice. Would you recommend I start contacting these firms early on to show an interest in working for them?

Do you also have any information re which firms pay market rate? I've heard anywhere from $105k to $120k for starting associates, but my debt load is low enough that that may be sufficient.

[El Dangeroso]

I'd say Mitchell.

Iowa's stipulation is terrifying. Moreover, the only market UIowa is going to open up to you is... Iowa. Unless you really like it there I don't think it's much of a benefit, it's not exactly a robust market. Full ride at William Mitchell is a solid option if you want to stay in MN.

Iowa's stipulation is indeed harsh. From what I understand, 25% of those with scholarships lose them after the first year, and an additional 25% lose them in subsequent semesters (so that'd mean something like 56% keep their scholly. Ouch). But in my mind, if you can't perform at a high level in law school then you don't deserve your scholarship.

There is also a huge misconception that Iowa grads stay in Iowa. The stats show 35-40% of grads staying in Iowa, and my guess is that those are Iowa residents that don't want to leave anyway. The rest largely go throughout the midwest (namely KC, STL, Minnie, Chi).

So choice between WM and Iowa? Show a little grit, determination, and balls, go to the obviously better school and earn your keep. Don't take a financially safe route so you can sit on your hands but have fewer opportunities.

Good luck either way.

[bjsesq]

But in my mind, if you can't perform at a high level in law school then you don't deserve your scholarship.

Wut? That scholarship was given to a person because of the numbers/experiences they bring to the school. Why not let "not having a job when law school ends" be the punishment for underperformance in law school? Kinda like it is now.

There is also a huge misconception that Iowa grads stay in Iowa. The stats show 35-40% of grads staying in Iowa, and my guess is that those are Iowa residents that don't want to leave anyway. The rest largely go throughout the midwest (namely KC, STL, Minnie, Chi).

I agree here. Plenty of Iowa grads leave the state to practice elsewhere. It doesn't have stellar placement, but there is a decent amount.

So choice between WM and Iowa? Show a little grit, determination, and balls, go to the obviously better school and earn your keep. Don't take a financially safe route so you can sit on your hands but have fewer opportunities.

Show balls by avoiding the financially safe alternative. Hello, person from U of Iowa's Law School Admissions Office. Please stop appealing to ego when you run short of logical justifcation. K. Thx. GTFO.

[minnbills]

Iowa's stipulation is indeed harsh. From what I understand, 25% of those with scholarships lose them after the first year, and an additional 25% lose them in subsequent semesters (so that'd mean something like 56% keep their scholly. Ouch). But in my mind, if you can't perform at a high level in law school then you don't deserve your scholarship.

There is also a huge misconception that Iowa grads stay in Iowa. The stats show 35-40% of grads staying in Iowa, and my guess is that those are Iowa residents that don't want to leave anyway. The rest largely go throughout the midwest (namely KC, STL, Minnie, Chi).

So choice between WM and Iowa? Show a little grit, determination, and balls, go to the obviously better school and earn your keep. Don't take a financially safe route so you can sit on your hands but have fewer opportunities.


Good luck either way.

My guess is Iowa grads who place elsewhere probably are returning to home markets, rather than getting to those markets because their school was strong enough to place them there. My point was that if you're leaving your home state (MN) for a higher ranked school like Iowa, be aware of what that higher ranking will get you. In this case, it would open up the Iowa market.

If one wants to stay in MN, then I would maintain WM is the better bet given the difference in scholarships. Once you factor in alumni networks and proximity, I doubt most employers are going to make much distinction between Iowa and WM. Hell, I know lawyers working at smaller firms who prefer to hire WM grads rather than UMN ones, since WM has more of a practical emphasis.

But above all, your advice on scholarships is bad. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but frankly it's downright dangerous. A student receiving a significant scholarship who falls out of the top of the class and loses his/her scholarship (thus paying full tuition to the end) would probably have to drop out altogether, since getting a market paying gig would be the only realistic way to pay off the obscene un-subsidized cost of law school, and that route wouldn't be open. Whereas a student not in the top of the class but with little/no debt would still be fine.

The principal reason schools offer scholarships is to attract candidates who likely have better options, students don't owe schools anything. They're the consumers. It's predatory, in my opinion, for schools to even have these kinds of stips.

The person who originally asked the question is probably long gone, so this post is intended more for lurkers.

[El Dangeroso]

Numbers just get you a spot in the game, my friend, and don't mean anything after that.

And obviously I'm a student. But do I have an interest in getting quality students to come to my school? Well ya. Appeal to ego? Sure, it's effective buddy-boy. Logic is for the LSAT and Property class.

[bjsesq]

Numbers just get you a spot in the game, my friend, and don't mean anything after that.

And obviously I'm a student. But do I have an interest in getting quality students to come to my school? Well ya. Appeal to ego? Sure, it's effective buddy-boy. Logic is for the LSAT and Property class.

At least you openly admit you are full of shit.

[Tanicius]

I know a lot of alums from Iowa (and Drake, another Iowa school) working in Minnesota.