The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Minnesota biglaw attorney taking questions this week (probably towards the end of the week). Ask your questions here and I'll get to them when I can.

Keep the questions focused on law schools and law firms in the region (MN, WI, IA).

[boozehound]

How are job prospects for Biotech IP law in Minneapolis?

[Lonagan]

I'm between top 5-10% at the U after 1st semester (assuming my class' quartiles do not go outside the minimum/maximums of the last ten years). Is this enough to make me competitive in the Minnesota legal market, or am I still going to be scrabbling for leftovers from T-14 people in my local market?

What if I maintain these grades, plus make law review? Would same grades and a secondary journal hamstring me very much in the local market?

If I maintain this position, the only places I would transfer to are HYS. Do you think that is a reasonable outlook?

Thank you very much for answering questions, I appreciate it.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Biotech is huge in Minnesota. It is actually one of the larger markets in the country. If you have a hard science degree, you'll be very competitive for biglaw and corporate jobs.

From the University of Minnesota (the U is Miami, if you ask me. ), top 10% will definitely make you competitive for Faegre/Dorsey, and very competitive for the other smaller firms. Keep up the great work.

You'll always have T14 and BC/GW/ND, etc. grads also competing for big firm jobs. However, Minnesota firms like to hire the home grown students. You should be fine, so long as your stats stay high. It is when you drop below the top 20% that you find law firms unwilling to interview because of the competition from the coastal schools.

If you want to transfer, any of the top 10 schools will give you a great chance at biglaw in Minnesota, but some will question why you transferred if you want to work in Minnesota. I never would, but some would. Just be prepared to answer the question if you decide to transfer.

[quadsixm]

[]

[boozehound]

MinnesotaBigLaw, thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[LogosEther]

You mentioned that a student definitely wants to stay above top 20% for biglaw. Would you use a different ranking for IP? If so, what's your approximation for that?

Thanks.

[dougroberts]

What do you see the prospects will be this summer for making offers to summer associates at the big and medium firms in the Twin Cities?

[dougroberts]

In terms of hiring, how do you see WM and UST competing with UMN?
More specifically, what class rank at UST and WM would be sufficient to keep a student in the running for jobs against UMN students?

Thanks in advance for taking questions.

[Tanicius]

Should I take Michigan with a year's tuition scholly or Minnesota on a tuition scholly? Serious question. Grew up and went to college in MN; all my family lives here. The more time goes by, the more I'm less convinced that even a nearby T-14 is the right option if I would be interested in ending up back in Minnesota.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Regarding IP, you are in a different group of talent from which we draw. If you have a hard science degree from a top school like MIT or Cal Tech, you don't need to worry too much about law school GPA. If you have a hard science degree from other schools, you'll still be competing with a smaller segment of law students, so we'll usually go deeper into the class. However, just do your best and you should be okay.

Regarding UST and WM, they compete fairly well. We usually take the top 10-15% from UST and the top 5-10% from WM. Occasionally we'll take a Hamline student with very good extras on their resume. You'll need to do well at either UST or WM to get biglaw, but we take a few of the top students from UST every year and usually a top student from WM.

Regarding summer classes, we are hiring again. We aren't at 2007 stats yet, but getting there. Dorsey, Faegre and Robins are all on hiring booms right now as the market has picked back up. Things are looking better for the Minnesota market.

[thedive]

With a nearly full tuition scholly, would you consider UST a worthwhile investment? The reason this offer is so tempting to me is that I have undergraduate debt, and not adding a considerable amount of debt from law school would be awesome. I was also wondering if you predict that UST will break into the t100 anytime soon and how UST does in relation to WM. Finally, how would you consider a UST graduate's chances for a small to middle size firm in Minn./Wis./N.D.?

Thanks in advance.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Nearly full tuition at UST is a great option for keeping your debt down. Dorsey/Faegre/Robins will usually go into the top 10-15% at UST. The rest of the larger Minnesota firms go slightly deeper into the class. Big firms won't go much deeper than the top 20%. This is where Midlaw usually picks up the slack taking the next 10-15% of students. Smaller firms, and state/local government will pick up most of the rest. If you are in the bottom 50% of the class, you are going to have to work your way into a firm through networking. I've been to a few UST MBA and Law school networking events for my firm. Not bad events. Beautiful law school when they are held there.

In relation to WM, my firm hires slightly deeper into the class at UST than WM, and we usually take one or two extra from UST. Last summer we did not hire (or even go to campus to interview) from WM or Hamline due to the economy, but we did hire from UST and Minn (and the top schools out-of-state). WM has been around longer so it has more alums. Then again, UST benefits from having an entire university of alums at all the top companies and firms, which is significantly more than the WM alums. I think they call themselves Tommies. It is a good community to be affiliated with in terms of business. Actually, both alumni groups are decent in terms of connectivity to the university, though WM is hurt by the fact that it is only a law school (something I do find slightly odd).

It is interesting to see WM break into the T100 when they were in the 4th tier only two years ago or so. It is great to see more than one law school in Minnesota doing well in Minnesota in US News. I am not sure if it can sustain that ranking given its employment prospects and the fact that UST has been throwing money around hiring professors. That being said, I am not sure the pre-law student population really follows these trends. They probably just look at US News, as many on here do, which is fine.

Keeping your debt down is an amazing ability in this market. I know students and graduates at the U who were in the top half of their class but could not find employment and are struggling with the debt. It limits your abilities if you don't get that biglaw job, and makes living life comfortably difficult. It all depends on your debt-to-income ration.

You have some good options. You can't go wrong with UMN (in-state only) or UST (at nearly full scholly only). I would never attend UMN at OOS prices, nor would I attend UST at full cost. But given the lower cost you are looking at, these are good options.

[chaosnoodlesoup]

Should I take Michigan with a year's tuition scholly or Minnesota on a tuition scholly? Serious question. Grew up and went to college in MN; all my family lives here. The more time goes by, the more I'm less convinced that even a nearby T-14 is the right option if I would be interested in ending up back in Minnesota.

[BarnabeSpooge]

From your perspective, what's the difference between the Universities of Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Illinois? Do you look at those students as relative peers? If not, how do you stratify those schools?

[Prairie]

MinnesotaBigLaw11:

Thank you so much for posting this info and for leading me to this thread from the "help me choose" thread I started viewtopic.php?f=1&t=146550.

Out of curiosity, would you classify a firm like Leonard Street as MidLaw, and how deep into UM and St. Thomas would such a firm hire? I feel that I stand such a better shot of outperforming my peers if I go to UST instead of UM.

Thanks for all the info!

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

WUSTL
Most of the larger law firms in Minnesota send attorneys to the big coastal schools (T14, UCLA/USC, GW, BC), but we don’t send attorneys to WUSTL. However, I believe we have access to interview WUSTL students through job fairs in Chicago. This is a way we often recruit law students from schools that are not traditionally feeder schools.

Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Illinois
The Minneapolis office of firms are always going to hire more from UMN, while the Iowa office of firms and companies would probably prefer to hire from Iowa. That doesn’t necessarily mean one is better than the other, but we don’t go as deep into the class at Iowa/Wisconsin. I’d say, in order of number of students we hire from each school: 1) UMN; 2) Wisc; and 3) Iowa. I consider these peer schools, but the alums will usually say their alma mater is better. There is a healthy population of Wisconsin and Iowa alums in the twin cities and they are very good attorneys. You’ll usually have some options from Iowa or Wisconsin if you do well in law school.

I don’t know much about Illinois. I haven’t met any alums in the twin cities. That may be do to self-selection though, as their law students probably tend to feed into the Chicago market.


Out of curiosity, would you classify a firm like Leonard Street as MidLaw, and how deep into UM and St. Thomas would such a firm hire? I feel that I stand such a better shot of outperforming my peers if I go to UST instead of UM.
Leonard Street is a big firm in Minneapolis. I guess I consider Midlaw to encompass firms in the 25-75 category. You should probably be in the top 20-25% from UMN and the top 10-15% from UST to get an interview with Leonard.

[Sandro]

does Indiana place in Minnesota ? lol

[skaklight]

I have to attend either WM or Hamline as they are the only part time schools in the state and I have a mortgage, family etc. I am an engineer and looking to get into IP, how high do I need to finish at WM vs Hamline to land a job in big or mid-law in the twin city metro?

Thanks for your time.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Between Hamline and WM, go to WM. You'll need to do well for biglaw, but if you have an engineering background and a hard science degree, you'll be very desirable for IP law.

Indiana is not very well repesented in the cities, but it is a good school. I am sorry but I don't know much about it other than it has a good reputation.

[skaklight]

Between Hamline and WM, go to WM. You'll need to do well for biglaw, but if you have an engineering background and a hard science degree, you'll be very desirable for IP law.

Engineering degree from the U of Minnesota, 6 years work experience. Thanks for your opinion.

[PomasThynchon]

So Minnesota firms recruit from GW? Good to know. I got serious money fro
GW, but I like UMN. Problem is, don't want to limit myself to one region, but if there were a good chance I could get to MSP from GW, then that settles it I guess.

[PomasThynchon]

Is MSP the desirable of a market for T14ers? An USC? ha!

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Most of the top firms in Minneapolis send attorneys to DC to interview Georgetown and George Washington students.

Minnesota is a desirable market for people who are from Minnesota and are looking to return. You'd be suprised at the number of T25/30 law students we end up with in each years summer class. We rarely, but sometimes do, get a student at a coastal school who has no connections to the midwest. It is rare, but it happens. We have a lot to offer law students who are looking for a large firms and opportunity to grow a practice, which some of the Minnesota firms cultivate better than their big east coast counterparts in New York and Boston.

Here is the Minneapolis offiice summer class from last year:
Minnesota - 6
Chicago - 3
Michigan -3
Wisconsin -3
Iowa -2
Northwestern -2
University of St. Thomas -2
Boston College -1
George Washington - 1

[PomasThynchon]

Well it's good to know that MSP isn't super-insular. Thanks for the info