Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

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[tomwatts]

Anyone know how hard the prosecution one is? And is it just preference or do you have to tryout/write on? You can only take it 3L fall and there are 16 spots for 560 or so.

Most clinics have only about that many spots, so that doesn't really tell you anything. Some are really easy to get onto (you don't even have to preference and you can get a spot during add/drop, e.g. Child Advocacy) and some are in much higher demand (you really have to preference them #1, e.g. U.S. Attorney).

ITA Prosecution Perspectives? Uh, I'd never heard of it until just now, so my guess is that it's not in as high demand as Supreme Court or U.S. Attorney/AG, especially because of the heavy prereqs (only 3Ls, only after TAW and Evidence). It's marked as "By Permission: No." so you don't apply to it; you just preference it. I'd still preference it pretty high if you want to do it, though — my guess is that you have to preference it #1, but if you do, you'll get it.

Again, I don't actually know this. I'm just guessing from my general experience with these sorts of things.

[patogordo]

I ranked the prosecution clinic #2 or 3 and got it.

[wert3813]

Good stuff all, thanks.

[despina]

Another thing to remember is that the prosecution clinic isn't your (or anybody's) first or only opportunity to do prosecution work. By the time you're a 3L you've already had two summers to work at a DA or US Attorney's office, etc, which many people do. So if you're really into that clinic, your "competition" is not "560 3Ls," it's the much more limited group of "3Ls who realized late in the game that they're interested in prosecution + 3Ls who have already done a lot of prosecution and want to do more + 3Ls who aren't going into prosecution but want to try something fun / different / prestigious / challenging their 3L year." Also remember that a lot of 3Ls don't want to do clinics at all because they're trying to take it easy, while others can't (by rule or practical concerns) because they're in HLAB, HLR, etc.

Same applies to other clinics.

Aaaand speaking of which, a question from me: anybody know how high you have to rank CJI? Any difference between fall/winter and spring? And would it be totally insane to do CJI at the same time as two harder blackletter classes (say, Admin + Fed Courts / Con Law / Tax)?

[Mista Bojangles]

as a 2L, should i feel free to cross-register in completely frivolous college courses? like ceramics, or african dance traditions?

SA already in hand, but still need dat full-time offer. and may (?) apply to clerkships

[Nyclawyer618]

Is there any reason to drop out due to 1L grades? I'm nervous about my first semester scores.

[Doorkeeper]

Is there any reason to drop out due to 1L grades? I'm nervous about my first semester scores.

No. I know people with a single LP who got NYC and DC.

If you get multiple LPs, then I'd be really worried about EIP...but the chance of that happening, assuming a normal distribution, is 0.06%.

So calm the fuck down. You'll be fine.

[tomwatts]

Is there any reason to drop out due to 1L grades? I'm nervous about my first semester scores.

Ask this question after you get your 1L grades. Right now, for all you know, you got straight DSs.

[lawschoolboundfuture]

When will 1L grades come out? They said it will come out by the 28th at the latest. Does that usually mean it actually comes out on the 28th or is it usually earlier?

[Lovely Ludwig Van]

Had a friend (who usually knows these types of things) say they'll come out on the 27th. Plus I think some 2/3Ls mentioned they usually come out on the first day of spring semester (?).

[tomwatts]

They'll come out next week. The day of the week varies, but they come out next week. You'll get some sort of notification in advance ("Grades are coming out tomorrow!" from the DoS or something).

Just checked this thread around this time last year, and grades came out on the first day (Monday) of spring semester. There's a bunch more grade information available around those pages, too.

[TripTrip]

Is there any reason to drop out due to 1L grades? I'm nervous about my first semester scores.

Ask this question after you get your 1L grades. Right now, for all you know, you got straight DSs.

I'm generally a confident person, but I would assume there was some sort of system glitch if I logged on to HELIOS and saw all DSs next week.

[094320]

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[Mista Bojangles]

as a 2L, should i feel free to cross-register in completely frivolous college courses? like ceramics, or african dance traditions?

SA already in hand, but still need dat full-time offer. and may (?) apply to clerkships

sorry to bump this so fast, but want to make sure it doesn't get buried in the impending 1L gradepocalypse. any thoughts on this? thanks

[Doorkeeper]

as a 2L, should i feel free to cross-register in completely frivolous college courses? like ceramics, or african dance traditions?

SA already in hand, but still need dat full-time offer. and may (?) apply to clerkships

sorry to bump this so fast, but want to make sure it doesn't get buried in the impending 1L gradepocalypse. any thoughts on this? thanks

Based purely on speculation, I doubt this would matter for the firm, but I would worry if you have something very fluffy on your transcript when applying to clerkships, especially if your 2L class load is otherwise slim on black letter to begin with. This being said, if you did something more rigorous (or rigorous sounding) at another school, then I doubt it would matter as much.

[094320]

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[tomwatts]

Because I'm bored, here's a bunch of information about grades. By way of preface, I looked all this up mostly because I like numbers and find doing this sort of research fun, not because I'm a deranged gunner, even though I realize "deranged gunner" is how this sort of thing comes across on TLS.

Feel free to quote this liberally when grades questions come in next week.

THE HISTORY OF HLS GRADES, PRE-REFORM TO NOW

Back in 2009, the Acting Dean of HLS, Howell Jackson, announced a grade distribution for the new grades (apparently carrying out one of the last Elena Kagan reforms). Prior to this time, the grading system was on an A, B, etc., scale. According to the HL Record, the distribution in 1L classes from 1996 to 2000 (and likely well before and well after that) was: 8-11% A, 17-19%A-, 32-34% B+, 29-32% B, 7-8% B-, and 1% each of A+ and C or lower.

The published grade distribution, according to Above the Law and corroborated by the Crimson, was:

In classes with over 30 JD and LLM students enrolled, the recommended distribution of grades is: 37 percent Honors; 55 percent Pass; and 8 percent Low Pass.... Up to two Dean’s Scholar Prizes per class may be awarded in recognition of outstanding work, provided there are more than 30 JD and LLM students in the course following drop/add.

This began during the 2009-10 school year. This means that we're now in the fifth year of the new grades. (Wow, really? That means my 1L year was the third year. No wonder no one knew what the hell any of it meant.)

In the second year (2010-11), under the new Dean Martha Minow, some stealth changes were introduced (at least, that's Above the Law's way of describing it). The grade distribution returned to being unpublished, although there's no reason to believe that it changed substantially, and, judging by informal conversations I've had with professors, it didn't, with the exceptions of DSs and LPs.

Specifically, according to the Crimson, profs were given "increased discretion over the number of Dean’s Scholar Prizes." No one knows exactly what that means, but guesses earlier in this thread have suggested in the vicinity of 3-5 for a class of 80. According to the HL Record, giving LPs also became discretionary (that is, a prof can give zero). And, judging by the "The curve is suggested in all classes with over 30 students" answer in that interview, the curve became a bit more flexible (that is, a prof can give 31 H's in a class of 80, which is over 38%, and no one cares).

Finally, again according to the Crimson, the current grade point system was introduced, along with — I believe — the current system of calculating Latin honors at graduation.

THE CURRENT GRADE DISTRIBUTION (vs. the old one)

Judging by the above, it's something like this (in PERCENTILES, not percent correct or something):

94-99: DS (discretionary; could be 96-99, or whatever)
63-93: H
8-63: P
0-7: LP (discretionary: could be 0-4, or whatever)

The pre-reform grade distribution was, give or take:

99: A+
90-98: A
72-89: A-
39-71: B+
8-38: B
1-7: B-
0: C or lower

This was interesting to me, because it means, basically, that the new system is a really good excuse for grade inflation. Mark Weber was paraphrased in the Crimson as having equated the old A+ and the new DS, but the new DS is much more common (there are maybe 3-5 of them per 1L class section, as opposed to at most 1 in the old system). An H mostly overlaps with the old A/A- (63-93 for an H vs. 72-98 for an A/A-), but the cutoff is lower, so some old B+'s also become Hs. The LP overlaps with the old B-/C (0-7 [discretionary] for the LP vs. 0-7 for the B-/C), but because it's discretionary, there can be fewer of them than of the old B-/C.

LATIN HONORS

According to the current HLS grading policy, Latin honors are calculated as follows:

For each class, DS = 5, H = 4, P = 3, LP = 2, and F = 0. Calculate a GPA by calculating a weighted average of your grades for the year (weighted by the number of credits). Then average each of the three years of law school.

Thus, imagine a student with 1 DS and 4 Hs in regular 4-credit 1L classes and all Ps in the other 5 classes (including in both semesters of LRW and a 4-credit elective). That comes out to (from best grade to worst, by number of credits): [(4 * 5) + (4 * 4 * 4) + (3 * 4 * 3) + (2 * 2 * 3) ] / 36 = 3.67 for 1L year. If this student then had two more years of grades, you'd repeat the same calculation for each year individually, and then average the three years. So if 2L year gave 3.33 and 3L year gave 3.6, this student would have an overall GPA of 3.53. This is true despite the fact that the years have wildly different numbers of credits; each year is of equal weight regardless.

The top student gets summa, the next 10% get magna, and the next 30% get cum laude. TLS estimates put the cutoffs for cum laude as around 3.5 or so each year, and for magna around 3.9 or so. (These seem slightly low to me; I was told by a prof that magna is around 4.0, give or take.)

WHAT ALL THIS MEANS FOR A 1L WHO JUST GOT FIRST SEMESTER GRADES

Pretty much nothing. Average and median are about 1-2 Hs. If you did much better than that, don't get too cocky. You still have to do that another five times before you can stamp the "magna" on your transcript. If you did much worse than that, don't freak out. You've got five more semesters to figure it out. Talk to professors and see if you can get feedback. Talk to professors this semester and see if they can advise you how to study and what to pay attention to. Talk to 2Ls and 3Ls. Get outlines and hornbooks. Do something different. You'll be fine.

Even for EIP purposes, it's the total on the year that matters, not just one semester, and a great second semester will help to make up for a so-so first semester (and a crappy second semester can screw up whatever good stuff you've done in your first semester). So take it all with a grain of salt. There's quite a way left to go.

If you did really poorly (multiple LPs and no Hs), talk to OCS early, too. Part of what they paid for is making sure that all Harvard students get jobs when they graduate. They can figure out what you ought to do.

[wert3813]

Because I'm bored, here's a bunch of information about grades. By way of preface, I looked all this up mostly because I like numbers and find doing this sort of research fun, not because I'm a deranged gunner, even though I realize "deranged gunner" is how this sort of thing comes across on TLS.

Feel free to quote this liberally when grades questions come in next week.

THE HISTORY OF HLS GRADES, PRE-REFORM TO NOW

Back in 2009, the Acting Dean of HLS, Howell Jackson, announced a grade distribution for the new grades (apparently carrying out one of the last Elena Kagan reforms). Prior to this time, the grading system was on an A, B, etc., scale. According to the HL Record, the distribution in 1L classes from 1996 to 2000 (and likely well before and well after that) was: 8-11% A, 17-19%A-, 32-34% B+, 29-32% B, 7-8% B-, and 1% each of A+ and C or lower.

The published grade distribution, according to Above the Law and corroborated by the Crimson, was:

In classes with over 30 JD and LLM students enrolled, the recommended distribution of grades is: 37 percent Honors; 55 percent Pass; and 8 percent Low Pass.... Up to two Dean’s Scholar Prizes per class may be awarded in recognition of outstanding work, provided there are more than 30 JD and LLM students in the course following drop/add.

This began during the 2009-10 school year. This means that we're now in the fifth year of the new grades. (Wow, really? That means my 1L year was the third year. No wonder no one knew what the hell any of it meant.)

In the second year (2010-11), under the new Dean Martha Minow, some stealth changes were introduced (at least, that's Above the Law's way of describing it). The grade distribution returned to being unpublished, although there's no reason to believe that it changed substantially, and, judging by informal conversations I've had with professors, it didn't, with the exceptions of DSs and LPs.

Specifically, according to the Crimson, profs were given "increased discretion over the number of Dean’s Scholar Prizes." No one knows exactly what that means, but guesses earlier in this thread have suggested in the vicinity of 3-5 for a class of 80. According to the HL Record, giving LPs also became discretionary (that is, a prof can give zero). And, judging by the "The curve is suggested in all classes with over 30 students" answer in that interview, the curve became a bit more flexible (that is, a prof can give 31 H's in a class of 80, which is over 38%, and no one cares).

Finally, again according to the Crimson, the current grade point system was introduced, along with — I believe — the current system of calculating Latin honors at graduation.

THE CURRENT GRADE DISTRIBUTION (vs. the old one)

Judging by the above, it's something like this (in PERCENTILES, not percent correct or something):

94-99: DS (discretionary; could be 96-99, or whatever)
63-93: H
8-63: P
0-7: LP (discretionary: could be 0-4, or whatever)

The pre-reform grade distribution was, give or take:

99: A+
90-98: A
72-89: A-
39-71: B+
8-38: B
1-7: B-
0: C or lower

This was interesting to me, because it means, basically, that the new system is a really good excuse for grade inflation. Mark Weber was paraphrased in the Crimson as having equated the old A+ and the new DS, but the new DS is much more common (there are maybe 3-5 of them per 1L class section, as opposed to at most 1 in the old system). An H mostly overlaps with the old A/A- (63-93 for an H vs. 72-98 for an A/A-), but the cutoff is lower, so some old B+'s also become Hs. The LP overlaps with the old B-/C (0-7 [discretionary] for the LP vs. 0-7 for the B-/C), but because it's discretionary, there can be fewer of them than of the old B-/C.

LATIN HONORS

According to the current HLS grading policy, Latin honors are calculated as follows:

For each class, DS = 5, H = 4, P = 3, LP = 2, and F = 0. Calculate a GPA by calculating a weighted average of your grades for the year (weighted by the number of credits). Then average each of the three years of law school.

Thus, imagine a student with 1 DS and 4 Hs in regular 4-credit 1L classes and all Ps in the other 5 classes (including in both semesters of LRW and a 4-credit elective). That comes out to (from best grade to worst, by number of credits): [(4 * 5) + (4 * 4 * 4) + (3 * 4 * 3) + (2 * 2 * 3) ] / 36 = 3.67 for 1L year. If this student then had two more years of grades, you'd repeat the same calculation for each year individually, and then average the three years. So if 2L year gave 3.33 and 3L year gave 3.6, this student would have an overall GPA of 3.53. This is true despite the fact that the years have wildly different numbers of credits; each year is of equal weight regardless.

The top student gets summa, the next 10% get magna, and the next 30% get cum laude. TLS estimates put the cutoffs for cum laude as around 3.5 or so each year, and for magna around 3.9 or so. (These seem slightly low to me; I was told by a prof that magna is around 4.0, give or take.)

WHAT ALL THIS MEANS FOR A 1L WHO JUST GOT FIRST SEMESTER GRADES

Pretty much nothing. Average and median are about 1-2 Hs. If you did much better than that, don't get too cocky. You still have to do that another five times before you can stamp the "magna" on your transcript. If you did much worse than that, don't freak out. You've got five more semesters to figure it out. Talk to professors and see if you can get feedback. Talk to professors this semester and see if they can advise you how to study and what to pay attention to. Talk to 2Ls and 3Ls. Get outlines and hornbooks. Do something different. You'll be fine.

Even for EIP purposes, it's the total on the year that matters, not just one semester, and a great second semester will help to make up for a so-so first semester (and a crappy second semester can screw up whatever good stuff you've done in your first semester). So take it all with a grain of salt. There's quite a way left to go.

If you did really poorly (multiple LPs and no Hs), talk to OCS early, too. Part of what they paid for is making sure that all Harvard students get jobs when they graduate. They can figure out what you ought to do.

So tomwatts at a minimum there are 30 H's and only 6 LPs in terms of raw numbers? This assumes that teachers didn't get meaner when the scale became optional.

[TripTrip]

So tomwatts at a minimum there are 30 H's and only 6 LPs in terms of raw numbers? This assumes that teachers didn't get meaner when the scale became optional.

wert you and I have at least one prof who definitely didn't get nicer.

[cruxisfalcon]

Anyone apply to HBS for a JD/MBA during their 1L year at HLS? Does it significantly impact your chances for admission?

[tomwatts]

So tomwatts at a minimum there are 30 H's and only 6 LPs in terms of raw numbers? This assumes that teachers didn't get meaner when the scale became optional.

Well, 37% of 80 is 29.6, and 8% of 80 is 6.4. Presumably the scale was intended for 30 Hs, 44 Ps, and 6 LPs. But of those 30 Hs, originally 2 were DSs, and probably now 4-5 are DSs, and now a prof doesn't have to give any LPs if no exams warrant it.

So in a section of 80, you have approximately 5 DSs, 25 Hs, 44-50 Ps, and 0-6 LPs. But professors can vary from that a little, too (probably giving one extra H doesn't raise any eyebrows, for example)

As for the joint degree question, I applied to HKS as a 1L and having been at HLS already seems to have helped my chances for admission. I think HBS views it the same way. But it's not a guarantee of admission, by any means.

[094320]

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[wert3813]

I tip my hat off to you, tomwatts. I had figured it was something close to that, from snippets here and there, and it's good to see it compiled. I'll go put it in the original post.

ETA: If anyone else would like to link to useful posts in this thread, I'll also put those in the original post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Kreuk

[094320]

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