The BigLaw hate buffet Forum

[Theopliske8711]

How many hours of sleep do you biglawlyers get on average?

[rpupkin]

How many hours do you biglawlyers get on average?

Typical big law associate has to bill an average of 40 to 50 hours per week. Throw in stuff you can't bill and down time waiting for work, and you're probably averaging 60 hours a week over the course of a year. But in litigation, at least, the hours are pretty uneven. I might have a month where I'm in the office 9 to 6--and I'm maybe billing four to five hours a day. And then I'll have a month where I'm at work past midnight every weekday night and I'm doing at least a few hours of work every Saturday and Sunday.

[thesealocust]

How many hours do you biglawlyers get on average?

It's incomplete to think about averages and hours and better to think about (un)predictability and general level of overwhelmed.

A 300 hour month is the kind of thing even bittervets wince over, but below 200 you can still see a number of nights/mornings/weekends blown up. There's actually something comfortable about going through a bad stretch you saw coming, because you don't make plans and aren't expecting time to yourself, so you can just grind it out. Some of my least pleasant experiences have come from trying to shoehorn life in around the edges of work, even if work "wasn't that busy."

[Theopliske8711]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add: sleep.

[rpupkin]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add: sleep.

Of course, this varies along with the cycles of work, so it's a little tough to describe the "average." Overall, though, I'd say I average 5 hours per night on weekdays and 7-8 on weekends.

[rayiner]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add: sleep.

Of course, this varies along with the cycles of work, so it's a little tough to describe the "average." Overall, though, I'd say I average 5 hours per night on weekdays and 7-8 on weekends.

Holy shit. Are you working 14 hours a day?

I probably did 4-5 hours for a year, but at the time my daughter woke up every three hours to have a bottle.

[linkx13]

Came to this thread to see how much Big Law sucks. Left with my PI hopes and dreams heavily bruised and battered.

Read the comments. Though parts of that are true, a lot of it is bullshit.

[IAFG]

Came to this thread to see how much Big Law sucks. Left with my PI hopes and dreams heavily bruised and battered.

Read the comments. Though parts of that are true, a lot of it is bullshit.

I know at least 3 PI people who say it's spot on.

[rpupkin]

I'm sorry, I forgot to add: sleep.

Of course, this varies along with the cycles of work, so it's a little tough to describe the "average." Overall, though, I'd say I average 5 hours per night on weekdays and 7-8 on weekends.

Holy shit. Are you working 14 hours a day?

Not on average, no. But when I'm in one of those busy stretches where I am working 14 hours a day, I sleep less than five hours a night. I'm one of those people who needs to wind down after work. If I work from 10 a.m. to midnight, I don't just go home and go to sleep. I'll go to the gym, eat a real late meal, and maybe watch some TV. I won't fall asleep till 3 or so.

When it's slower I get more sleep (more like 6-7 hours a night), but even then I like staying up late. I might leave work at 5, go to a game with some friends, go out for drinks afterwards, and then maybe answer emails for an hour at home.

I could sleep more if I made it a priority. This is entirely anecdotal, but the associates I know who need lots of sleep (8 hours or more a night) seem the most unhappy. I think it's because their lives are nothing but working, eating, and sleeping. If you can get by on less sleep you can have a little more free time to yourself during the week.

[seespotrun]

Of course, this varies along with the cycles of work, so it's a little tough to describe the "average." Overall, though, I'd say I average 5 hours per night on weekdays and 7-8 on weekends.

Holy shit. Are you working 14 hours a day?

Not on average, no. But when I'm in one of those busy stretches when I'm working 14 hours a day, I sleep less than five hours a night. I'm one of those people who needs to wind down after work. If I work from 10 a.m. to midnight, I don't just go home and go to sleep. I'll go to the gym, eat a real late meal, and maybe watch some TV. I won't fall asleep till 3 or so.

When it's slower I get more sleep (more like 6-7 hours a night), but even then I like staying up late. I might leave work at 5, go to a game with some friends, go out for drinks afterwards, and then maybe answer emails for an hour at home.

I could sleep more if I made it a priority. This is entirely anecdotal, but the associates I know who need lots of sleep (8 hours or more a night) seem the most unhappy. I think it's because their lives are nothing but working, eating, and sleeping. If you can get by on less sleep you can have a little more free time to yourself during the week.

How much do you adderall, bro?

[jingosaur]

On attrition: It's because the constant supply of dangerously ambitious people is the only way to maintain the insane level of service a big firm does. Finance works largely the same way - it's a crucible and a testing process for people who actually stick it out, and otherwise a way to extract huge amounts of work from talented people until they're spent and the corpses can be discarded to the government/smaller firms/the latest former-big-law-associate cupcake start up.

Oh god, this is starting to hit close to home.

I work in the financial sector right now so I'm assuming that in Biglaw, I'll have the same problems that I have now but just with more hours and better pay.

[rpupkin]

I could sleep more if I made it a priority. This is entirely anecdotal, but the associates I know who need lots of sleep (8 hours or more a night) seem the most unhappy. I think it's because their lives are nothing but working, eating, and sleeping. If you can get by on less sleep you can have a little more free time to yourself during the week.

How much do you adderall, bro?

No stimulants besides coffee. I'm surprised at the surprise. In my experience, my sleeping habits are inline with those of many big law associates. I think I sleep less than the average big law associate, but not that much less. (And there are at least a couple of associates at my firm who sleep less than I do.)

[wiltthestilt]

Of course, this varies along with the cycles of work, so it's a little tough to describe the "average." Overall, though, I'd say I average 5 hours per night on weekdays and 7-8 on weekends.

Holy shit. Are you working 14 hours a day?

Not on average, no. But when I'm in one of those busy stretches when I'm working 14 hours a day, I sleep less than five hours a night. I'm one of those people who needs to wind down after work. If I work from 10 a.m. to midnight, I don't just go home and go to sleep. I'll go to the gym, eat a real late meal, and maybe watch some TV. I won't fall asleep till 3 or so.

When it's slower I get more sleep (more like 6-7 hours a night), but even then I like staying up late. I might leave work at 5, go to a game with some friends, go out for drinks afterwards, and then maybe answer emails for an hour at home.

I could sleep more if I made it a priority. This is entirely anecdotal, but the associates I know who need lots of sleep (8 hours or more a night) seem the most unhappy. I think it's because their lives are nothing but working, eating, and sleeping. If you can get by on less sleep you can have a little more free time to yourself during the week.

How much do you adderall, bro?

Some people just tick that way. 5 hours of sleep is all I need on any given day.

[waferthinmint]

From what you observe (since this seems to be an associates and below crowd), does life get better for those who actually stick it out and make it to midlevel? How about to partner?

I hear from some that Biglaw's a pie-eating contest for which the prize is more pie: once you make it past associate, you just get more work, more pressure to bring in clients and have great billables, etc. But maybe there are also perks like being a little bit more your own boss? Or something?

You can define "better" however you want. I'm just curious as to how the pros and cons might change the higher you get promoted in Biglaw.

[IAFG]

sr associates are the most miserable people on the planet

[rpupkin]

sr associates are the most miserable people on the planet

Do you think they're as miserable as the junior partners? At most firms, the junior partners have to take a pay cut (their salaries are a little higher than senior associates but the increase gets eaten away by partnership taxes and other expenses), they still have to bill a ton of hours, they're trying to bring in business, and they get assigned the shit administrative tasks that the senior partners don't want to do. At my firm, the junior partners seem to work harder than anyone.

[IAFG]

the kind of person who stays to be a sr associate usually just fucking sucks. they turned down all the life rafts that floated by and i assume are desperately, hopelessly trying to get that partnership promotion

[waferthinmint]

Also, just saw this on TLS's very own article: "An Introduction to 'Biglaw'" (http://www.top-law-schools.com/introduc ... iglaw.html)

In return for this lifestyle of high-stakes indentured servitude, biglaw attorneys are compensated with more than just high salaries. The firm will pay for a new hire to relocate after law school, and in a few years, it will pay for him/her to move again, on the assumption that s/he now wants a larger house. Gyms are often on-site, with memberships available at a below-market rate. Attorneys who work past a certain point in the evening (for example, 7:30) can order takeout and bill their meal to the client; typical dinner allowances are as high as $25. Similarly, there is a threshold (commonly around 8:00) after which the attorney can take a taxi home and bill that to the client, too.

Is this true? bling blAo $ign me up (JK. sort of.)

And, this excerpt seemed pertinent after the somewhat vitriolic poasting that transpired earlier ITT:

Afterword

Perhaps the most common rhetorical device in the discussion of biglaw is the metaphorical use of the term “soul”: biglaw attorneys sell their souls for money, the work they do is soul-sucking, etc. This is misguided.

Certainly, large law firms cannot always claim the moral high ground, and an attorney must whole-heartedly defend his firm's position whether or not he approves of it. However, there is no avoiding the fact that corporations are a dominant force of the modern world; society needs laws to govern such corporations, and, in turn, society also needs people to help the corporations interpret and navigate these laws. Biglaw attorneys contribute to the smooth functioning of our world just as their colleagues do in the realms of prosecution, criminal defense, wills and trusts, and so on. A biglaw attorney has certainly sold his energy and potentially all of his time to the firm, for better or for worse, but to imply that he has also parted with his moral compass requires a simplistic view of the lawyer's (and the corporation’s) place in society.

Thus saith the TLS.

[IAFG]

I can spend well over $25

[Theopliske8711]

the kind of person who stays to be a sr associate usually just fucking sucks. they turned down all the life rafts that floated by and i assume are desperately, hopelessly trying to get that partnership promotion

I feel like these kind of people are dangerous. Their spouse or child should be kept on continual watch to make sure they are safe when that last remaining nerve snaps.

[thesealocust]

Biglaw perks are legitimately incredible, but they're all designed to make you give up life in exchange for billable hours and client service. It's hard to get really excited about seamless night after night when you're eating it at your desk and working.

Probably the effect of the perks in total is your spending can plummet - no time to do other things, meals and transportation covered, etc.

[waferthinmint]

Biglaw perks are legitimately incredible, but they're all designed to make you give up life in exchange for billable hours and client service. It's hard to get really excited about seamless night after night when you're eating it at your desk and working.

Probably the effect of the perks in total is your spending can plummet - no time to do other things, meals and transportation covered, etc.

Yeah, that makes sense. But it's good to see that my concern about wasting my pretty Biglaw salary on endless cab rides and take-out because I'll be too drained to take public transpo or cook, thus making the draw of good pay a moot point, can be set aside.

[rpupkin]

the kind of person who stays to be a sr associate usually just fucking sucks. they turned down all the life rafts that floated by and i assume are desperately, hopelessly trying to get that partnership promotion

I feel like these kind of people are dangerous. Their spouse or child should be kept on continual watch to make sure they are safe when that last remaining nerve snaps.

Whatever. The cool partners that people fight to work with (yes, they exist) were senior associates once. Senior associates stay for a mix or reasons. Some are, like IAFG said, really gunning for partner. Some are just riding out big law as long as they can because they're paid more than they would be at any of their exit options. There's a mix of cool and miserable people in both groups.

[IAFG]

the kind of person who stays to be a sr associate usually just fucking sucks. they turned down all the life rafts that floated by and i assume are desperately, hopelessly trying to get that partnership promotion

I feel like these kind of people are dangerous. Their spouse or child should be kept on continual watch to make sure they are safe when that last remaining nerve snaps.

Whatever. The cool partners that people fight to work with (yes, they exist) were senior associates once. Senior associates stay for a mix or reasons. Some are, like IAFG said, really gunning for partner. Some are just riding out big law as long as they can because they're paid more than they would be at any of their exit options. There's a mix of cool and miserable people in both groups.

the coolest partners lateralled for something non-personality-ruining like fedgov

[swc65]

sr associates are the most miserable people on the planet

I have had a few tell me straight up that it gets worse and the pay really isnt that much better. I have gotten several "don't put on the golden handcuff" talks.

Of course they stay because their kids have to go to private schools since NYC aren't great and they have to have x, y and z, blah blah.