What happens when you don't get biglaw? Forum

[Glasseyes]

I'm well versed in the 2013 employment stats, and the biglaw + fedclerk numbers, and all the other stuff us 0L's choose to obsess over. Therefore I realize we're gambling on getting the jobs we want (or think we want), and it's clear not everyone gets these desirable jobs, especially at the schools I'm looking at. People mention "ending up in PI", or landing in "non-prestigious govt work", but it's hard for an outsider to figure out what these jobs actually amount to since most of the discussion of those fields seems to revolve around jobs people actually want.

If you shoot for the moon and miss, what kind of jobs are you competing for? Is it all shitlaw?

[transferror]

Mostly, or business positions. The "PI" stuff is non-profit work or PD/DA/AG -type stuff. If you gun for biglaw, it's tough to "fall back" on any of that stuff because they will want to see commitment to public interest, not just biglaw left me SoL.

Shitlaw is a stupid term. Some personal injury and other stuff (insurance defense) is referred to as shitlaw, but it's relative. Personal injury would suck, but some small firms do decent work and have a good work/life balance. Some small firms will allow you to get trial experience early. Some small firms suck dick. It just depends.

If you strike out with biglaw, try to find a small firm with an AV rating and decent/interesting work. They do exist.

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

If you strike out with biglaw, try to find a small firm with an AV rating and decent/interesting work. They do exist.

Stupid question: what does this mean?

[guano]

[bk1]

If you strike out with biglaw, try to find a small firm with an AV rating and decent/interesting work. They do exist.

Stupid question: what does this mean?

Google is your friend.

[rad lulz]

Small firms, local govt., state court clerk

[deebanger]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

[bk1]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

There's lots of reasons why people (rightly or wrongly) prefer biglaw over something like DA/PD:

1. Higher pay.
2. Prestige.
3. Exit options.
4. Having a postgrad job almost lined up by fall 2L (and definitely lined up by early fall 3L) rather than having to wait until fall/spring 3L.
5. Not wanting to work in criminal law.
6. Not having to deal with ethical questions that sometimes accompany criminal law.
7. (if you have high debt) not being chained to IBR/LRAP for 10 years.

Etc, etc.

[bk1]

Small firms, local govt., state court clerk

Basically this. There are other things that people end up in out of law school that isn't biglaw (e.g. fed clerk, in-house, etc) but those people often have the creds to have landed biglaw in the first place.

[transferror]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

$$$...work/life balance and satisfying work don't exactly service big debt, and most students have a ton of debt. There are plenty of people who want the good hours, work/life balance, and meaningful work who use biglaw as a stepping stone. Plenty of people in biglaw plan to do PI/AUSA/in-house/small firm work after a few years making $$ and having a "prestigious" firm on their résumé/CV. Also, from many top schools, it's more difficult/less predictable to land DA than biglaw, especially if you have high grades.

[rad lulz]

m

[deebanger]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

$$$...work/life balance and satisfying work don't exactly service big debt, and most students have a ton of debt. There are plenty of people who want the good hours, work/life balance, and meaningful work who use biglaw as a stepping stone. Plenty of people in biglaw plan to do PI/AUSA/in-house/small firm work after a few years making $$ and having a "prestigious" firm on their résumé/CV. Also, from many top schools, it's more difficult/less predictable to land DA than biglaw, especially if you have high grades.

so say a person has 200,000 in law school debt, would u say its much better and smarter to first try to land a big law gig and then after a couple of years try to land a gig in the DA's office. Because, starting out at the DA's office with 60,000 or 55,000 would be a terrible idea if you have debt in six figured right? How hard it is for people to go to work in big law and then jump to the DA's office? Does big law give you the skills that u need that will transfer over? that was my biggest concern, as the da office might want to see you have some experience with trial law, trying cases in court. Even if one works in litigation for a couple of years, my biggest fear was that I may not get the experience that da offices would want.

[rad lulz]

,

[A. Nony Mouse]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

I mean, this is a little bit like asking why people who like punk rock don't listen to more bluegrass music. There are a lot of people for whom working for the DA would just have nothing to do with what kind of law they want to do. If you want to be in court a lot, sure, it's a decent option (unless you have a problem with sending people to prison, of course, which some people do), but not everyone who goes into law wants to be in court.

[transferror]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

$$$...work/life balance and satisfying work don't exactly service big debt, and most students have a ton of debt. There are plenty of people who want the good hours, work/life balance, and meaningful work who use biglaw as a stepping stone. Plenty of people in biglaw plan to do PI/AUSA/in-house/small firm work after a few years making $$ and having a "prestigious" firm on their résumé/CV. Also, from many top schools, it's more difficult/less predictable to land DA than biglaw, especially if you have high grades.

so say a person has 200,000 in law school debt, would u say its much better and smarter to first try to land a big law gig and then after a couple of years try to land a gig in the DA's office. Because, starting out at the DA's office with 60,000 or 55,000 would be a terrible idea if you have debt in six figured right? How hard it is for people to go to work in big law and then jump to the DA's office? Does big law give you the skills that u need that will transfer over? that was my biggest concern, as the da office might want to see you have some experience with trial law, trying cases in court. Even if one works in litigation for a couple of years, my biggest fear was that I may not get the experience that da offices would want.

You're probably not going to be able to transfer from biglaw to a DA's office. Usually it's the other way around, although less so in the last 10 years. You can, however, try to go from biglaw to AUSA (federal prosecutor), but it's very difficult. Biglaw isn't going to give you any meaningful trial experience or transferrable skills for a DAs office.

If you want to be a DA, you have no business going 200k in debt. If you to be a DA/PD, you should not go more than ≈75k in debt unless you're at HYS, and even that depends on where you got full rides.

[deebanger]

just curious to know others' opinions on this, Are DA jobs desirable and really attractive for people who like trial law/being in court. I believe district attorney jobs even if pay is lesser than big law, have really good hours, wonderful work/family balance, and also the satisfaction of doing meaningful work. So, why do more people seem to be attracted towards big law? Thoughts/opinions?

$$$...work/life balance and satisfying work don't exactly service big debt, and most students have a ton of debt. There are plenty of people who want the good hours, work/life balance, and meaningful work who use biglaw as a stepping stone. Plenty of people in biglaw plan to do PI/AUSA/in-house/small firm work after a few years making $$ and having a "prestigious" firm on their résumé/CV. Also, from many top schools, it's more difficult/less predictable to land DA than biglaw, especially if you have high grades.

so say a person has 200,000 in law school debt, would u say its much better and smarter to first try to land a big law gig and then after a couple of years try to land a gig in the DA's office. Because, starting out at the DA's office with 60,000 or 55,000 would be a terrible idea if you have debt in six figured right? How hard it is for people to go to work in big law and then jump to the DA's office? Does big law give you the skills that u need that will transfer over? that was my biggest concern, as the da office might want to see you have some experience with trial law, trying cases in court. Even if one works in litigation for a couple of years, my biggest fear was that I may not get the experience that da offices would want.

DA is an entry level job

People don't do a few yrs of biglaw then da

Also Biglaw doesn't give you the skills or familiarity w crim law to do DA stuff

so, if you want to be a deputy district attorney, there is no way one can do litigation in big law for 5-10 years and then go over to the da's office? do all ada's start right out of law school? Because if one really likes to be ada or a deputy da, but had six gfigures debt, going right out of law school is tough right. Thats why I thought a backdoor entry like this will be better as one could pay off the loans quickly.

[rad lulz]

l

[echooo23]

At the moment, it's not worth starting in biglaw because if PSLF sticks around, you're best off starting as a DA making minimum payments until forgiveness kicks in. Of course, you run the risk that PSLF won't still be around. People who know they want to go into a lower paying practice area shouldn't take out $250K in debt, though. Especially if your goal is DA - most offices are not prestige-conscious enough to justify taking t14 at sticker over a strong regional for free.

I'm not going to say that no one has ever in the history of law gone from biglaw to DA, but it is quite unusual. Even litigation in biglaw is nothing like what you do in a DA's office. I could see making a jump after a year or two when you're still essentially entry level (and then only if you have a lot of qualifications besides biglaw), but not if you stay 5-10 years in biglaw - you'd be ensconced.

(The jump from biglaw to AUSA is different, for whatever reason.)

Also going from 5 yrs biglaw to Ada is going career backwards

I'm not going to say no ones ever done it

But it's like "why"

Curious about this. Why is it like going backwards? So what are realistic/common options for a litigation associate post-biglaw? Lateral to other big law, lateral to midlaw/small law, and AUSA - what else?

[Ohiobumpkin]

You get sent to Detroit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4a-oxOndo

[spleenworship]

I assume its similar to what you feel when you shoot PI and fail: lots of anxiety and depression meds combined with crying jags and bouts of annoying self pity.

[09042014]

You pretend you always wanted to do PI until you get caught at 3L OCI. You graduate jobless. Your wife fucks a black guy and you ain't even mad.

[spleenworship]

You pretend you always wanted to do PI until you get caught at 3L OCI. You graduate jobless. Your wife fucks a black guy and you ain't even mad.

But do just beta out and raise the guys cafe au lait children? Or do you have enough self respect to sleep on the couch an just drink whiskey all day instead?

[09042014]

You pretend you always wanted to do PI until you get caught at 3L OCI. You graduate jobless. Your wife fucks a black guy and you ain't even mad.

But do just beta out and raise the guys cafe au lait children? Or do you have enough self respect to sleep on the couch an just drink whiskey all day instead?

Some beta enough to fail getting big law from a t14? Yea he raises Tyrones kids.

[rad lulz]

,

[rayiner]

Back when I started on TLS, five years ago, the belief was that people who didn't get big law just got a job as a public defender or something. In reality, those jobs are highly sought after, and the ones getting them are people with decent grades and a demonstrated commitment to public interest work.

For people who gun for big law and don't get it, the outcome usually involves at least some period of unemployment prior to getting admitted to the bar. At least at a T14, some school funded internship will usually be available. The typical outcome after that is working at a small firm, often doing insurance or employment related work. Contrary to popular belief, there is a wide gamut of work in these areas. Smaller secondary markets have respectable small firms that cater to local businesses. Most big law firms, for example, do not have the cost structure to take on a $100,000 contractual dispute. Better labor and employment firms can pay associates six figures, although most small firm salaries are $50-80k. Of course there are firms that just do slip and falls, etc, but not every small firm is a low-end ID mill.

Two years out, I don't know anybody from my class (at a T14) working at an ID mill, still doing doc review, or still unemployed, although I imagine there are some.