Clerking for international students Forum

[October25]

I'm wondering if anyone can clarify the rules for me / share their experiences having to do with (federal) clerkships as an international student.

Clerking sounds like something I would really enjoy, and it's a huge bonus for someone who want's to do lit, but I know there are restrictions for international students.

As far as I know, international (Canadian) students can be hired as federal clerks, but only on a volunteer basis. Does anyone know if this ever even happens in practise?

Also, I understand that some people clerk after a year or two at a firm. In these cases can one take an advance from their firm in order to cover expenses or is this seen as a conflict of interest issue?

There is an exception to the volunteering rule for places outside the continental US (Alaska, Hawaii,the Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Guam, or the Northern Mariana Islands) Are these valuable, or would trying for a state supreme court somewhere like NY or DC (which will pay international clerks) be a better option?

If anyone has experience with this, or can clarify the rules if I've misunderstood, I'd be really grateful.

Thanks for your help!

[GoesWithTheTerritory]

Federal clerkships in any of those districts are valuable to if you want to clerk. Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico have Article III federal district courts. At least one judge for the relevant United States Circuit Court of Appeals also has chambers in each of those jurisdictions. The experience you get there isn't really going to be any different than the experience you get in district courts in the continental United States.

The district courts in the Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands are a little different. Those jurisdictions do not have Article III federal courts. Instead, the district courts in those jurisdictions are established by Congress's plenary power over the territories in Article IV. Congress has, however, exercised that power to provide for separate local and federal court systems in the territories, which mirror the setup in the states and incorporate many of the same doctrines. So, in practice, an Article IV district court (as opposed to the territorial local courts) has, in general, the same jurisdiction as an Article III district court. The biggest difference is that the judges are appointed for a term, not for life. Regardless, the legal experience you get in one of those courts is not materially different than what you might get in your run of the mill district court in the states. In addition, for clerkship bonus and advancement in years purposes, my understanding is that Big Law treats Article IV district clerkships the same way they treat Article III district clerkships.

[October25]

Federal clerkships in any of those districts are valuable to if you want to clerk. Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico have Article III federal district courts. At least one judge for the relevant United States Circuit Court of Appeals also has chambers in each of those jurisdictions. The experience you get there isn't really going to be any different than the experience you get in district courts in the continental United States.

The district courts in the Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands are a little different. Those jurisdictions do not have Article III federal courts. Instead, the district courts in those jurisdictions are established by Congress's plenary power over the territories in Article IV. Congress has, however, exercised that power to provide for separate local and federal court systems in the territories, which mirror the setup in the states and incorporate many of the same doctrines. So, in practice, an Article IV district court (as opposed to the territorial local courts) has, in general, the same jurisdiction as an Article III district court. The biggest difference is that the judges are appointed for a term, not for life. Regardless, the legal experience you get in one of those courts is not materially different than what you might get in your run of the mill district court in the states. In addition, for clerkship bonus and advancement in years purposes, my understanding is that Big Law treats Article IV district clerkships the same way they treat Article III district clerkships.

Thanks for the info! It seems like there are some opportunities for international students looking to do a federal clerkship, then - even if they are a little out of the way.

[heythatslife]

I know there are international students who have gone on to unpaid federal clerkship positions in the continental US, so it does happen.

[October25]

I know there are international students who have gone on to unpaid federal clerkship positions in the continental US, so it does happen.

Do you know if there are external funding opportunities for this? (either from firms or elsewhere) Or are these considered conflicts of interest?

I found this on the Florida district court site: http://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/?page_id=269

"Law Clerks are paid employees of the U. S. Courts. All unpaid individuals who volunteer their time are considered interns. Interns who are not receiving payment from an outside party in relation to their voluntary service are considered employees of the Court."

Which seems to suggest that you could come to a funding arrangement with a firm or some other organization.

[wwwcol]

I know there are international students who have gone on to unpaid federal clerkship positions in the continental US, so it does happen.

Do you know if there are external funding opportunities for this? (either from firms or elsewhere) Or are these considered conflicts of interest?

I found this on the Florida district court site: http://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/?page_id=269

"Law Clerks are paid employees of the U. S. Courts. All unpaid individuals who volunteer their time are considered interns. Interns who are not receiving payment from an outside party in relation to their voluntary service are considered employees of the Court."

Which seems to suggest that you could come to a funding arrangement with a firm or some other organization.

Most judges won't even let you accept an offer to work for a firm post-clerkship. Without knowing the hiring policies of all federal judges, I'll speculate that you probably won't find any who would let you take money from a law firm during a volunteer clerkship. There's also the fact that law firms almost certainly wouldn't agree to this arrangement anyways.

For what it's worth, all of the international volunteer clerks I know came from wealth and could afford a year without pay.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I know of people who have done school-funded clerkships (specifically, Cornell) - they shopped themselves around to judges offering to clerk for a year for free (for the court, since payment came from the school). I don't know if this is an option for international students but I don't see why not.

[October25]

I know there are international students who have gone on to unpaid federal clerkship positions in the continental US, so it does happen.

Do you know if there are external funding opportunities for this? (either from firms or elsewhere) Or are these considered conflicts of interest?

I found this on the Florida district court site: http://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/?page_id=269

"Law Clerks are paid employees of the U. S. Courts. All unpaid individuals who volunteer their time are considered interns. Interns who are not receiving payment from an outside party in relation to their voluntary service are considered employees of the Court."

Which seems to suggest that you could come to a funding arrangement with a firm or some other organization.

Most judges won't even let you accept an offer to work for a firm post-clerkship. Without knowing the hiring policies of all federal judges, I'll speculate that you probably won't find any who would let you take money from a law firm during a volunteer clerkship. There's also the fact that law firms almost certainly wouldn't agree to this arrangement anyways.

For what it's worth, all of the international volunteer clerks I know came from wealth and could afford a year without pay.

Figured that might be the case. I am decidedly not from wealth, and there is no way I could afford a year without pay unfortunately.

[October25]

I know of people who have done school-funded clerkships (specifically, Cornell) - they shopped themselves around to judges offering to clerk for a year for free (for the court, since payment came from the school). I don't know if this is an option for international students but I don't see why not.

Thanks, this is something I'll look into. Because I'm an international I'm aiming at HYS because they have institutional loans available, so I'll look and see if those schools have similar programs now that I know they exist.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I don't know if it was billed as a clerkship thing or just a school-funded post-grad fellowship thing - basically money used to give students who don't have jobs after graduation the chance to work/get experience while they look for work. I don't think it was only or specifically for clerking, just to be clear.

[BVest]

You might also look to some of the more prestigious state Supreme Court clerkships. They can hire foreign clerks for pay.

[October25]

I don't know if it was billed as a clerkship thing or just a school-funded post-grad fellowship thing - basically money used to give students who don't have jobs after graduation the chance to work/get experience while they look for work. I don't think it was only or specifically for clerking, just to be clear.

Ah, fair enough. Thanks for the information anyways!

[October25]

You might also look to some of the more prestigious state Supreme Court clerkships. They can hire foreign clerks for pay.

Thanks. I understand that these are available for pay, but nobody has yet made it clear to me how relevant these are. It seems that for hiring (at boutiques that either highly prefer / only hire clerks) they only ever consider federal clerkships, same with bonuses. Am I mistaken on this? I'm sure all other things equal, clerking for a state supreme court is better than not, but are they sufficient for boutique hiring, or signing bonuses?

[BVest]

You might also look to some of the more prestigious state Supreme Court clerkships. They can hire foreign clerks for pay.

Thanks. I understand that these are available for pay, but nobody has yet made it clear to me how relevant these are. It seems that for hiring (at boutiques that either highly prefer / only hire clerks) they only ever consider federal clerkships, same with bonuses. Am I mistaken on this? I'm sure all other things equal, clerking for a state supreme court is better than not, but are they sufficient for boutique hiring, or signing bonuses?

Bonuses and year consideration for SSC vary from firm to firm. As far as I can tell, there's no simple rule.

[BVest]

You might also look to some of the more prestigious state Supreme Court clerkships. They can hire foreign clerks for pay.

Thanks. I understand that these are available for pay, but nobody has yet made it clear to me how relevant these are. It seems that for hiring (at boutiques that either highly prefer / only hire clerks) they only ever consider federal clerkships, same with bonuses. Am I mistaken on this? I'm sure all other things equal, clerking for a state supreme court is better than not, but are they sufficient for boutique hiring, or signing bonuses?

Bonuses and year consideration for SSC vary from firm to firm. As far as I can tell, there's no simple rule.

[Anonymous User]

As another Canadian really looking to clerk I am going to throw apps to Hawaii and Alaska (want to work in 9th Circuit anyways), the Delaware Court of Chancery (look into this), and probably some Circuit courts (my lawschool has hinted they are willing to provide some funding but seemed hesitant to get more into specifics at that point--going to ask again when I get my second semester grades back if I did as well as I hope).

The main actual advise I can give is to look at Delaware as another option of a court that has some value (mainly for Corporate)

[Anonymous User]

It's definitely possible, though be prepared to face a lot of rejections first. I don't think New York state courts allow foreign applicants though.

[Anonymous User]

As another Canadian really looking to clerk I am going to throw apps to Hawaii and Alaska (want to work in 9th Circuit anyways), the Delaware Court of Chancery (look into this), and probably some Circuit courts (my lawschool has hinted they are willing to provide some funding but seemed hesitant to get more into specifics at that point--going to ask again when I get my second semester grades back if I did as well as I hope).

The main actual advise I can give is to look at Delaware as another option of a court that has some value (mainly for Corporate)

This is me, for what it is worth I got a DE SC clerkship I am fairly happy with.

[Npret]

Just be aware that changes to legal immigration are coming and it could affect you. No idea yet how it will play out.

This draft memo has sketchy details. Doesn't mention Canada specifically.
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus ... rams.0.pdf

I also posted this in the applicant thread but I thought perhaps you might not see it.

[Anonymous User]

This is slightly off topic but how will big law firms look art Art IV court versus federal district court in a flyover state? Are Art IV courts looked at as "lesser" court when trying to apply for big law firms after clerking? Thanks for any help!

[FascinatedWanderer]

My guess is yes, because they almost uniformly have an irrelevant and much less sophisticated docket.

[Anonymous User]

delete

[FascinatedWanderer]

I've never seen an Art. IV clerk on biglaw websites. Unless you have the qualifications for biglaw before, a territorial clerkship won't do anything for you.