Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 28, 2023 1:35 pm

Take away their life tenure and black robes, and they will put them in their place real fast.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:38 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 8:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2023 7:10 pm
Not disputing any of the true negatives here (nor do I have no personal experience with Ikuta) but lol at being taken out for meals, invited over, or getting your birthday off being meaningful criteria. (Yes, I'm sure some judges do those things; they're still not material.)
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:40 pm
Just a couple specifics: Time off isn't a thing during clerkships, generally—and yet she's perfectly understanding re: special occasions, unlike some actual avoid-at-all-costs judges. You shouldn't expect to be taken out for meals or given birthdays off, because...it's a job?
I don't get these takes at all. Why wouldn't eating lunch/meals with your judge frequently (which does not mean having the judge pay, to be clear), having lenient vacation policies as long as the work gets done, having office birthday parties or days off, etc. not all be meaningful criteria? They go right to contact with the judge, mentorship, positive atmosphere in chambers and collegiality, etc.

Are there judges who don't usually (or at least often) eat lunch with their clerks and don't give them weeks/days off upon request and stuff? That sounds awful.
Not OP. This is perhaps a tangent, but I have literally never heard of a 9th circuit clerk getting "vacation," i.e., time off where they do not respond to emails. It is far more common to work from home or remotely, to see family or something, but you're still on the hook. The view, in my experience, is that you're only there for a year and can take vacation later. Frankly, there generally isn't much respect for the idea of a "weekend" either. Thus, "time off isn't a thing." Perhaps this commenter had an unusually lovely Judge, or perhaps my sphere of connections has had unusually bad luck.
I'm pretty sure a Hurwitz clerk told me that he let them (and maybe even encouraged them?) to take a real vacation during the clerkship.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:38 pm
Wardlaw and Bea are outright assholes to their clerks. Source is that Bea unintentionally sent emails meant for his clerks and wardlaw clerks talk trash about her that is easily overheard.
Former Wardlaw clerk here. I had a great year with her, as did my co-clerks, and I truly admire her. But I have heard from others who didn't have as good of an experience. It seems like it's highly dependent on how she gets along with the particular mix of clerks each year, probably some of which has to do with how the clerks approach the job, and some of which has to do with her.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:46 am

Ha. I love the defenses of these dickhead judges by the servile clerks "bea isn't that much of an asshole . . . You just have to have a thick skin." "Wardlaw isn't that much of an asshole to every clerk class" both are well known dickheads, beware.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:42 am

As for vacation, no law clerk expects a lot of time off. But being encouraged to take a few days (3 or 4) over the course of a 12 month clerkship is a reasonable expectation from a good boss. The problem is that some judges have no leadership skills as managers and let their own neurosis define their clerks' quality of life. Ikuta clerks, for example, were worked the day after Christmas and Thanksgiving, and discouraged from taking any time off because Ikuta thought certain things were urgent when they were no such thing. That's why it's important to work for a less neurotic boss.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:42 am
As for vacation, no law clerk expects a lot of time off. But being encouraged to take a few days (3 or 4) over the course of a 12 month clerkship is a reasonable expectation from a good boss. The problem is that some judges have no leadership skills as managers and let their own neurosis define their clerks' quality of life. Ikuta clerks, for example, were worked the day after Christmas and Thanksgiving, and discouraged from taking any time off because Ikuta thought certain things were urgent when they were no such thing. That's why it's important to work for a less neurotic boss.
Agreed. A judge who understands the world isn't going to end if you're not in front of them 24/7/365 is a reasonable ask for a boss.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:38 pm
Wardlaw and Bea are outright assholes to their clerks. Source is that Bea unintentionally sent emails meant for his clerks and wardlaw clerks talk trash about her that is easily overheard.
Former Wardlaw clerk here. I had a great year with her, as did my co-clerks, and I truly admire her. But I have heard from others who didn't have as good of an experience. It seems like it's highly dependent on how she gets along with the particular mix of clerks each year, probably some of which has to do with how the clerks approach the job, and some of which has to do with her.
It's hard to tell which anon is which, but it seems like there's one person here the last few weeks with an aggressive ax to grind against CA9 judges. This person's tone has been pretty inconsistent with the years of CA9 discussion in this thread.

Your description of the Wardlaw experience sounds like my read on her chambers. The description I've always used was "her clerks love her, other judges' clerks hate her" (she can be difficult to sit with and craft opinions with). Bea has been on everyone's "watch list" forever (formal, high expectations) but many of his clerks have reported positive experiences.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:42 am
As for vacation, no law clerk expects a lot of time off. But being encouraged to take a few days (3 or 4) over the course of a 12 month clerkship is a reasonable expectation from a good boss
FWIW we got around 2 weeks in addition to federal holidays (requests were ad hoc and never denied--perhaps because they were reasonable).

3-4 days over the course of a YEAR is insanity.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:42 am
As for vacation, no law clerk expects a lot of time off. But being encouraged to take a few days (3 or 4) over the course of a 12 month clerkship is a reasonable expectation from a good boss
FWIW we got around 2 weeks in addition to federal holidays (requests were ad hoc and never denied--perhaps because they were reasonable).

3-4 days over the course of a YEAR is insanity.
Have we not sufficiently beaten the dead horse that vacation time during a clerkship will vary A LOT depending on where you are and who you're clerking for?

(Also... were you at a COA or a DCt?)

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by GoneSouth » Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:57 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:42 am
As for vacation, no law clerk expects a lot of time off. But being encouraged to take a few days (3 or 4) over the course of a 12 month clerkship is a reasonable expectation from a good boss
FWIW we got around 2 weeks in addition to federal holidays (requests were ad hoc and never denied--perhaps because they were reasonable).

3-4 days over the course of a YEAR is insanity.
I don't think it's really that atypical for judges to expect that their clerks take, at most, 3-4 days off in addition to holidays (taken 1 or 2 days at a time for wedding travel, family obligations, etc.--i.e., not to sit on a beach). It's usually a one-year job, and I think many judges expect that you will generally be there every week for the full year. You may disagree with that normatively, but if we're talking about what clerks should expect going in, for many judges, you should expect to get much less than 2 weeks off (by which I mean, not working at all).

I'd note that unless you're the rare clerk who comes in with 3+ years of federal work experience, you're only going to be accruing 4 hours of annual leave every two weeks, so it wouldn't be until almost the second half of your clerkship that you'd even have enough leave to take a full week off.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:51 pm
(Also... were you at a COA or a DCt?)
Busy COA. But workflow in chambers was extremely efficient and our judge took care of almost all administrative/screening work (again, because more efficient).

'd note that unless you're the rare clerk who comes in with 3+ years of federal work experience, you're only going to be accruing 4 hours of annual leave every two weeks, so it wouldn't be until almost the second half of your clerkship that you'd even have enough leave to take a full week off.
Are those hypothetical if we were subject to leave policies and all that? I assumed we were exempt.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:51 pm
(Also... were you at a COA or a DCt?)
Busy COA. But workflow in chambers was extremely efficient and our judge took care of almost all administrative/screening work (again, because more efficient).
I asked because my impression is that COAs take a break (from oral argument, at least) in the summer and I wondered if that was part of what’s behind the “vacation is normal” idea. Because DCts don’t have any built-in breaks like that and I’m wondering if that difference might help explain the different experience that posters have had. Could be completely wrong though since you referenced ad hoc time off across the year.
'd note that unless you're the rare clerk who comes in with 3+ years of federal work experience, you're only going to be accruing 4 hours of annual leave every two weeks, so it wouldn't be until almost the second half of your clerkship that you'd even have enough leave to take a full week off.
Are those hypothetical if we were subject to leave policies and all that? I assumed we were exempt.
Not entirely sure what this question is asking, but: judges can put their clerks onto the federal leave plan, but don’t have to. My sense is that judges generally will, if you ask them to, although I obviously can’t prove that statistically or anything. So you can earn leave as a clerk.

But it also wouldn’t surprise me if some judges treat clerks’ time off as a matter unrelated to the amount of leave they officially accrue. A judge can let you take a day off without having you put in for leave, which is the flip side of you accruing leave and not being able to take it if the judge doesn’t give you time off.

My judge was happy to sign me onto the leave plan, but I was at a “no real vacation” clerkship where I got to leave early on various Fridays and worked from home over the holidays, but didn’t really take other time off. For me, the big benefit was getting annual leave paid out to me at the end of the clerkship.

I think that the sick leave was seen as sort of a good backup to have? Despite the no real vacation policy, my judge certainly wouldn’t have balked at someone calling in sick, and it’s not like they could or would not pay you if you called in sick if you didn’t have sick leave to take or anything. But sick leave seemed to be regarded as potentially useful for emergencies. Plus it wasn’t unheard of for clerks to go to federal jobs after their term and you can roll over the sick leave when you do that.

So in my chambers it felt like putting the clerk on the leave plan was something that could generally benefit the clerk but not something that actually impacted your work conditions very much.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:51 pm
(Also... were you at a COA or a DCt?)
Busy COA. But workflow in chambers was extremely efficient and our judge took care of almost all administrative/screening work (again, because more efficient).
I asked because my impression is that COAs take a break (from oral argument, at least) in the summer and I wondered if that was part of what’s behind the “vacation is normal” idea. Because DCts don’t have any built-in breaks like that and I’m wondering if that difference might help explain the different experience that posters have had. Could be completely wrong though since you referenced ad hoc time off across the year.
'd note that unless you're the rare clerk who comes in with 3+ years of federal work experience, you're only going to be accruing 4 hours of annual leave every two weeks, so it wouldn't be until almost the second half of your clerkship that you'd even have enough leave to take a full week off.
Are those hypothetical if we were subject to leave policies and all that? I assumed we were exempt.
Not entirely sure what this question is asking, but: judges can put their clerks onto the federal leave plan, but don’t have to. My sense is that judges generally will, if you ask them to, although I obviously can’t prove that statistically or anything. So you can earn leave as a clerk.

But it also wouldn’t surprise me if some judges treat clerks’ time off as a matter unrelated to the amount of leave they officially accrue. A judge can let you take a day off without having you put in for leave, which is the flip side of you accruing leave and not being able to take it if the judge doesn’t give you time off.

My judge was happy to sign me onto the leave plan, but I was at a “no real vacation” clerkship where I got to leave early on various Fridays and worked from home over the holidays, but didn’t really take other time off. For me, the big benefit was getting annual leave paid out to me at the end of the clerkship.

I think that the sick leave was seen as sort of a good backup to have? Despite the no real vacation policy, my judge certainly wouldn’t have balked at someone calling in sick, and it’s not like they could or would not pay you if you called in sick if you didn’t have sick leave to take or anything. But sick leave seemed to be regarded as potentially useful for emergencies. Plus it wasn’t unheard of for clerks to go to federal jobs after their term and you can roll over the sick leave when you do that.

So in my chambers it felt like putting the clerk on the leave plan was something that could generally benefit the clerk but not something that actually impacted your work conditions very much.
Cleked on CADC and DDC. One judge opted into the FMLA and another did not. But across both clerkships, I took about 2 weeks per year of actual vacation, which was respected by the judge. Of course, you have to take it at reasonable times but I was able to take both shorter long-wekeend type vacations and longer formal vacations where I went overseas. I may have answered a couple of emails but I was essentially entirely off during my vacation time (and nearly all weekends for both clerkships fwiw). I know that CA9 is very busy, but the notion that a clerk should have essentially no time off throughout the entire year is still ridiculous. Both of my chambers were incredibly efficient (e.g. no hold-over opinions on the circuit and low/no six month list on the district) despite humane working conditions in terms of both hours and vacation; to the extent that other judges or chambers cannot manage to do the same, that's the judge's failure. The fact that so many people defend those types of expectations and attitudes -- which are the result of the judge's inefficiency and/or disregard for their clerks' time -- is exactly why it is so normalized and so many judges take advantage of their clerks.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:53 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:51 pm
(Also... were you at a COA or a DCt?)
Busy COA. But workflow in chambers was extremely efficient and our judge took care of almost all administrative/screening work (again, because more efficient).
I asked because my impression is that COAs take a break (from oral argument, at least) in the summer and I wondered if that was part of what’s behind the “vacation is normal” idea. Because DCts don’t have any built-in breaks like that and I’m wondering if that difference might help explain the different experience that posters have had. Could be completely wrong though since you referenced ad hoc time off across the year.
'd note that unless you're the rare clerk who comes in with 3+ years of federal work experience, you're only going to be accruing 4 hours of annual leave every two weeks, so it wouldn't be until almost the second half of your clerkship that you'd even have enough leave to take a full week off.
Are those hypothetical if we were subject to leave policies and all that? I assumed we were exempt.
Not entirely sure what this question is asking, but: judges can put their clerks onto the federal leave plan, but don’t have to. My sense is that judges generally will, if you ask them to, although I obviously can’t prove that statistically or anything. So you can earn leave as a clerk.

But it also wouldn’t surprise me if some judges treat clerks’ time off as a matter unrelated to the amount of leave they officially accrue. A judge can let you take a day off without having you put in for leave, which is the flip side of you accruing leave and not being able to take it if the judge doesn’t give you time off.

My judge was happy to sign me onto the leave plan, but I was at a “no real vacation” clerkship where I got to leave early on various Fridays and worked from home over the holidays, but didn’t really take other time off. For me, the big benefit was getting annual leave paid out to me at the end of the clerkship.

I think that the sick leave was seen as sort of a good backup to have? Despite the no real vacation policy, my judge certainly wouldn’t have balked at someone calling in sick, and it’s not like they could or would not pay you if you called in sick if you didn’t have sick leave to take or anything. But sick leave seemed to be regarded as potentially useful for emergencies. Plus it wasn’t unheard of for clerks to go to federal jobs after their term and you can roll over the sick leave when you do that.

So in my chambers it felt like putting the clerk on the leave plan was something that could generally benefit the clerk but not something that actually impacted your work conditions very much.
Cleked on CADC and DDC. One judge opted into the FMLA and another did not. But across both clerkships, I took about 2 weeks per year of actual vacation, which was respected by the judge. Of course, you have to take it at reasonable times but I was able to take both shorter long-wekeend type vacations and longer formal vacations where I went overseas. I may have answered a couple of emails but I was essentially entirely off during my vacation time (and nearly all weekends for both clerkships fwiw). I know that CA9 is very busy, but the notion that a clerk should have essentially no time off throughout the entire year is still ridiculous. Both of my chambers were incredibly efficient (e.g. no hold-over opinions on the circuit and low/no six month list on the district) despite humane working conditions in terms of both hours and vacation; to the extent that other judges or chambers cannot manage to do the same, that's the judge's failure. The fact that so many people defend those types of expectations and attitudes -- which are the result of the judge's inefficiency and/or disregard for their clerks' time -- is exactly why it is so normalized and so many judges take advantage of their clerks.
My experience was identical in a flyover district court/COA.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:18 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:53 pm
Cleked on CADC and DDC. One judge opted into the FMLA and another did not. But across both clerkships, I took about 2 weeks per year of actual vacation, which was respected by the judge. Of course, you have to take it at reasonable times but I was able to take both shorter long-wekeend type vacations and longer formal vacations where I went overseas. I may have answered a couple of emails but I was essentially entirely off during my vacation time (and nearly all weekends for both clerkships fwiw). I know that CA9 is very busy, but the notion that a clerk should have essentially no time off throughout the entire year is still ridiculous. Both of my chambers were incredibly efficient (e.g. no hold-over opinions on the circuit and low/no six month list on the district) despite humane working conditions in terms of both hours and vacation; to the extent that other judges or chambers cannot manage to do the same, that's the judge's failure. The fact that so many people defend those types of expectations and attitudes -- which are the result of the judge's inefficiency and/or disregard for their clerks' time -- is exactly why it is so normalized and so many judges take advantage of their clerks.
Eh, I still think this is just a cultural variance and not an issue of abuse. My “no real vacation” clerkship was also strictly 8:30-5, with no expectation of weekend work and (as already noted) the opportunity to leave early for long weekends and work from home over the holiday season. My judge had no problem with me traveling for interviews and we took all the federal holidays. Certainly if I’d needed time off for something my judge would have worked with it without issue. It was an extremely humane experience over all.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:18 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:53 pm
Cleked on CADC and DDC. One judge opted into the FMLA and another did not. But across both clerkships, I took about 2 weeks per year of actual vacation, which was respected by the judge. Of course, you have to take it at reasonable times but I was able to take both shorter long-wekeend type vacations and longer formal vacations where I went overseas. I may have answered a couple of emails but I was essentially entirely off during my vacation time (and nearly all weekends for both clerkships fwiw). I know that CA9 is very busy, but the notion that a clerk should have essentially no time off throughout the entire year is still ridiculous. Both of my chambers were incredibly efficient (e.g. no hold-over opinions on the circuit and low/no six month list on the district) despite humane working conditions in terms of both hours and vacation; to the extent that other judges or chambers cannot manage to do the same, that's the judge's failure. The fact that so many people defend those types of expectations and attitudes -- which are the result of the judge's inefficiency and/or disregard for their clerks' time -- is exactly why it is so normalized and so many judges take advantage of their clerks.
Eh, I still think this is just a cultural variance and not an issue of abuse. My “no real vacation” clerkship was also strictly 8:30-5, with no expectation of weekend work and (as already noted) the opportunity to leave early for long weekends and work from home over the holiday season. My judge had no problem with me traveling for interviews and we took all the federal holidays. Certainly if I’d needed time off for something my judge would have worked with it without issue. It was an extremely humane experience over all.
Same for me on both district and COA. Took several 3 or 4 day weekends (when holiday). Some totally off and some available if need be for remote work. No problem. Was otherwise M-F typical office hours. Personally as a clerk, I had my own expectation that there was basically no vacation in the sense of taking a full week or two off. I loved the job and viewed it as a service to the law and judiciary for a short time. My time off was before, between, and after clerking.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:05 pm

Nthing that COA clerks can have reasonable vacation schedules and WLB. The job was a strict 9:30-6, M-F, and I took about two weeks of vacation in addition to federal holidays (a week-long vacation and a few three day weekends). We weren't FMLA and vacation requests were ad hoc.

To those who say that it's one year of service, I get it. But taking some time to refresh, reset, etc is (IMO) helpful for effective work product; it's also nice to be able to take a trip with your partner if they are working a traditional job with vacations.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:21 pm

There are obviously a range of experiences and a range of expectations about appropriate vacation during a clerkship. Also, no one’s saying that it’s impossible for a chambers to balance workload and clerks taking vacation, although different districts obviously have different workloads so it’s going to be easier some places than others.

I think probably the takeaway for applicants is that 1) there isn’t a universal expectation about vacation during the term so if that’s important to you, find out before you accept; but also 2) just because a judge expects you not to take vacation during the term doesn’t mean you’re going to have a miserable, abusive term. Just because you and the judge disagree about that particular expectation for clerks doesn’t mean they are tyrannical on a daily level or anything.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 8:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:53 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:51 pm
(Also... were you at a COA or a DCt?)
Busy COA. But workflow in chambers was extremely efficient and our judge took care of almost all administrative/screening work (again, because more efficient).
I asked because my impression is that COAs take a break (from oral argument, at least) in the summer and I wondered if that was part of what’s behind the “vacation is normal” idea. Because DCts don’t have any built-in breaks like that and I’m wondering if that difference might help explain the different experience that posters have had. Could be completely wrong though since you referenced ad hoc time off across the year.
'd note that unless you're the rare clerk who comes in with 3+ years of federal work experience, you're only going to be accruing 4 hours of annual leave every two weeks, so it wouldn't be until almost the second half of your clerkship that you'd even have enough leave to take a full week off.
Are those hypothetical if we were subject to leave policies and all that? I assumed we were exempt.
Not entirely sure what this question is asking, but: judges can put their clerks onto the federal leave plan, but don’t have to. My sense is that judges generally will, if you ask them to, although I obviously can’t prove that statistically or anything. So you can earn leave as a clerk.

But it also wouldn’t surprise me if some judges treat clerks’ time off as a matter unrelated to the amount of leave they officially accrue. A judge can let you take a day off without having you put in for leave, which is the flip side of you accruing leave and not being able to take it if the judge doesn’t give you time off.

My judge was happy to sign me onto the leave plan, but I was at a “no real vacation” clerkship where I got to leave early on various Fridays and worked from home over the holidays, but didn’t really take other time off. For me, the big benefit was getting annual leave paid out to me at the end of the clerkship.

I think that the sick leave was seen as sort of a good backup to have? Despite the no real vacation policy, my judge certainly wouldn’t have balked at someone calling in sick, and it’s not like they could or would not pay you if you called in sick if you didn’t have sick leave to take or anything. But sick leave seemed to be regarded as potentially useful for emergencies. Plus it wasn’t unheard of for clerks to go to federal jobs after their term and you can roll over the sick leave when you do that.

So in my chambers it felt like putting the clerk on the leave plan was something that could generally benefit the clerk but not something that actually impacted your work conditions very much.
Cleked on CADC and DDC. One judge opted into the FMLA and another did not. But across both clerkships, I took about 2 weeks per year of actual vacation, which was respected by the judge. Of course, you have to take it at reasonable times but I was able to take both shorter long-wekeend type vacations and longer formal vacations where I went overseas. I may have answered a couple of emails but I was essentially entirely off during my vacation time (and nearly all weekends for both clerkships fwiw). I know that CA9 is very busy, but the notion that a clerk should have essentially no time off throughout the entire year is still ridiculous. Both of my chambers were incredibly efficient (e.g. no hold-over opinions on the circuit and low/no six month list on the district) despite humane working conditions in terms of both hours and vacation; to the extent that other judges or chambers cannot manage to do the same, that's the judge's failure. The fact that so many people defend those types of expectations and attitudes -- which are the result of the judge's inefficiency and/or disregard for their clerks' time -- is exactly why it is so normalized and so many judges take advantage of their clerks.
“I did the two lowest-caseload clerkships in the country and had tons of vacation, so anything else is abusive” is not a serious argument.

Anonymous User
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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:01 pm
Same for me on both district and COA. Took several 3 or 4 day weekends (when holiday). Some totally off and some available if need be for remote work. No problem. Was otherwise M-F typical office hours. Personally as a clerk, I had my own expectation that there was basically no vacation in the sense of taking a full week or two off. I loved the job and viewed it as a service to the law and judiciary for a short time. My time off was before, between, and after clerking.
LOL taking vacation and loving the job is mutually exclusive. Assuming equal efficiency/ceteris paribus, you can work longer than office hours when not on vacation, work weekends to compensate, volunteer before/after the clerkship, etc. Let's not get weird.

Laserguy213

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Laserguy213 » Sun Sep 03, 2023 12:49 pm

Doing a district court clerkship in a busy dct, but figured I would opine on the vacation days topic. Our judge expects us to have at least wed-fri off for thanksgiving, but they try to give us the whole week. We also are expected to have the week between christmas and new years off. And then besides that, they expect to give us as many vacation days as our schedule can handle. The judge is very kind and just expects the work to get done and get done at a high level. If you can do that and take a long weekend, then go for it. It probably helps that they edit with such a light hand so you can be relatively sure that when you're done with work there won't be a monster revision to handle.

i think this judge is in the minority as far as this vacation expectation goes.

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Anonymous User
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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Sep 04, 2023 10:57 pm

One reason that many judges might not be amenable to clerks taking weeks off at a time is that, in most chambers, there is only one clerk assigned to each case. So if something starts happening in one of your cases while you’re gone, none of the other clerks are likely to have the background knowledge needed to slot in seamlessly. I don’t think it’s that surprising that judges don’t want to be in the position of waiting for their clerk to come back from the beach to deal with something, particularly if you’re on a court of appeals where timely responses to other judges are expected.

lawyerlady18

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by lawyerlady18 » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:02 am
Looks like Tipton is moving to the Houston division to replace the retiring (and notorious) Lynn Hughes, which will presumably end his stint as a major conservative impact litigation judge. Some of the immigration cases that would otherwise have gone to him will probably go to Brown, Kacsmaryk, O'Connor, or Pittman.

What’s the deal with Hughes lately? Is he retiring for sure? He’s been awfully quiet for months now, and no activity on his docket. I also heard a rumor that he had prostate cancer again.

Anonymous User
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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:48 pm

lawyerlady18 wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:02 am
Looks like Tipton is moving to the Houston division to replace the retiring (and notorious) Lynn Hughes, which will presumably end his stint as a major conservative impact litigation judge. Some of the immigration cases that would otherwise have gone to him will probably go to Brown, Kacsmaryk, O'Connor, or Pittman.

What’s the deal with Hughes lately? Is he retiring for sure? He’s been awfully quiet for months now, and no activity on his docket. I also heard a rumor that he had prostate cancer again.
Hughes is functionally retired, he's on non-active senior status and all his cases were transferred.

Anonymous User
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 26, 2023 4:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:48 pm
lawyerlady18 wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:02 am
Looks like Tipton is moving to the Houston division to replace the retiring (and notorious) Lynn Hughes, which will presumably end his stint as a major conservative impact litigation judge. Some of the immigration cases that would otherwise have gone to him will probably go to Brown, Kacsmaryk, O'Connor, or Pittman.

What’s the deal with Hughes lately? Is he retiring for sure? He’s been awfully quiet for months now, and no activity on his docket. I also heard a rumor that he had prostate cancer again.
Hughes is functionally retired, he's on non-active senior status and all his cases were transferred.
Interesting. Did the 5th Circuit finally do him in? Or did his dementia and craziness finally catch up with him?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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