Michigan Law Class of 2015 Forum

[descartesb4thehorse]

I've never been to the CCRB, but the IM building is a pretty nice gym and actually closer to the law school, I think.

Yea a bunch of people were talking about it since it's closer, but I also heard really terrible things about it, too. I may check it out just to see, but I'm pretty set on doing a b-school gym membership.

[Campagnolo]

Thank you all very much! I really can't decide between MPD. Champagne problem, I know, but it's causing some angst. Part of me knows that any of the three are awesome schools with great reputations, where I will make friends and be just fine. The rest of me is angsty as all get out.

I really appreciate everyone's perspective. As someone who has never lived in a college town, I'm a bit worried! Still, Cornell, Duke, Michigan, and Virginia all seem to suffer from not having many top notch lawyers around for clinics, so I think that's a wash. Still, it's something to think about!

And thanks to those who sent me messages. They made my work day much better.

[JoeMo]

Thank you all very much! I really can't decide between MPD. Champagne problem, I know, but it's causing some angst. Part of me knows that any of the three are awesome schools with great reputations, where I will make friends and be just fine. The rest of me is angsty as all get out.

I really appreciate everyone's perspective. As someone who has never lived in a college town, I'm a bit worried! Still, Cornell, Duke, Michigan, and Virginia all seem to suffer from not having many top notch lawyers around for clinics, so I think that's a wash. Still, it's something to think about!

And thanks to those who sent me messages. They made my work day much better.

Have you considered getting in touch with the schools so that you can speak to current students and alumni to see if they can offer some insight? Some of my best conversations have been with alumni of the schools. They tend to be quite revealing.

[46nyc]

I just wanted to give my input on the ASW and why it's one of the reasons I am most likely choosing Michigan. The gym, whatever, it's not that big of a deal to pay extra for the b-school gym (also what I plan on doing!) The job prospects, yeah, the numbers are lower but talking to the career services woman at the panel, it really did seem to be a consequence of self-selection into smaller markets, PI/govt/other jobs, and not that firms want to hire Michigan grads less than they want to hire grads from peer schools. The undergrad feel around the area was kind of off-putting, but I think that was also a function of it being 75 degrees on St. Patty's Day weekend. I was there the whole week and that kind of activity really wasn't happening during the week. I also got a chance to go all over town (Like near Main, I guess? We went everywhere) and I LOVED the feel of it. Once we got away from the streets directly adjacent to the university, we didn't see any undergrads.

The reason I loved Michigan, though, was the people. I learned this the hard way in undergrad. Going to a school that's pretty, that's in a big city with great culture, that has billions of different restaurants, that has a nice gym, that has nice apartments, that's great, but if you don't like the people surrounding you, you're not going to be happy. Go someplace that has amazing, welcoming, generous people, though, and your environment will just kind of fade away.

All colleges can put on nice preview days, but rarely have I seen the kind of genuine warmth that was at Michigan Law. For example, I was talking to my tour guide about job prospects, and she gave really honest responses, but she also asked me questions about what I was interested in, what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go, and gave me feedback based on those responses. She was interested in me doing what was best for me. All of the current students and other prospective students were so nice, really seeming to care about each other. I told one of the professors thank you for taking the time to talk to us, and she said, "No, thank you for taking the time to visit us."

I just can't go on enough about the people at Michigan. Like I said, I think the people are what you should look at when choosing your school, and I think it would be easy to be genuinely happy with the people at Michigan.

[Matt Damon]

For those who went the ASW, how did you get from DTW to AA?

[moneybagsphd]

I logged onto the accepted students site today, and noticed that I received a "Dean's" scholarship. However, it only lists my award for the 2013 academic year which I found odd. Am I to understand that I've only been awarded a scholarship for the first year? Or is it renewable? I ask because all of my other offers are renewable.

[ScrabbleChamp]

I logged onto the accepted students site today, and noticed that I received a "Dean's" scholarship. However, it only lists my award for the 2013 academic year which I found odd. Am I to understand that I've only been awarded a scholarship for the first year? Or is it renewable? I ask because all of my other offers are renewable.

Michigan scholarships are for all 3 years. The amount you see on the ASW is per year, but wait until you get the official letter in the mail before counting your chickens.

[moneybagsphd]

I logged onto the accepted students site today, and noticed that I received a "Dean's" scholarship. However, it only lists my award for the 2013 academic year which I found odd. Am I to understand that I've only been awarded a scholarship for the first year? Or is it renewable? I ask because all of my other offers are renewable.

Michigan scholarships are for all 3 years. The amount you see on the ASW is per year, but wait until you get the official letter in the mail before counting your chickens.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm playing it safe and not getting my hopes up...

[thelaststraw05]

I definitely think that are reasons to think about going to any of Michigan's peer schools.

From a career perspective:

If you are 100% sure you want to work in DC, you really might want to consider UVA.
If you are 100% sure you want to work in NYC, Penn might serve you better.
If you aren't sure where you want to work or want to work in the midwest, Michigan is probably where you want to be.

From a social perspective:

If you want a slightly frattier atmosphere, UVA might be the place.
If you want a more business-y atmosphere, Penn might be for you.
If you want a down to earth, generally progressive, constantly helpful atmosphere, Michigan might be best.

From a weather perspective:

Honestly, Penn, UVA, and Michigan all have weather that is roughly equally good/bad.
UVA in August/September and Late April/May is going to be hot and muggy. Virginia summers suck.
Philly is going to be a little cooler than UVA in those summer months, but is more prone to slushy grossness in the winter.
Michigan summers are awesome, but we get snow in the winter. As a positive, it is snow. There is very little slushy grossness.

If in your mind all other things are about equal, I think that deciding based on your class is a good way to go. I can't think of one person here at Michigan that I actively dislike. Of all the people I've met in my 1L year here, I actively like the vast majority. The remainder I have feelings that range from "they are pleasant" to "meh."

[thelaststraw05]

I logged onto the accepted students site today, and noticed that I received a "Dean's" scholarship. However, it only lists my award for the 2013 academic year which I found odd. Am I to understand that I've only been awarded a scholarship for the first year? Or is it renewable? I ask because all of my other offers are renewable.

Michigan scholarships are for all 3 years. The amount you see on the ASW is per year, but wait until you get the official letter in the mail before counting your chickens.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm playing it safe and not getting my hopes up...

Yeah, the amount listed should be for one year and will renew for each of the three years. I had someone ask me at ASW whether there were stips, the answer is no. You must remain a student in good standing, meaning higher than a 2.0. Dean Z when asked last year said that she cannot recall one example of a student losing their scholarship.

[Sammy841]

For those who went the ASW, how did you get from DTW to AA?

I rented a car through priceline. Since I'm over 25 the total cost was only $39.00 which included gas/fee. Not a great option if under 25 though- then I would have just gone with the taxi. But it's a super easy drive otherwise.

[RNJDNO1]

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[Kurst]

Has Dean Z or anyone else explain the high % of unreported salaries for the latest employment stats yet? 211/371 reporting is abysmal, and despite the low #, the 25% salary fell to 110,000k. On one hand, I applaud Mich. being among the first to release such detailed stats despite the bleak #s, and I think that does reflect well on them. On the other hand, bad numbers are bad numbers.

The salary reporting rate fell off a cliff -- whereas 325 reported salaries in 2009, just 211 reported in 2010.



Michigan's salary reporting rate is on par with Vanderbilt and USC.

[The Duck]

Has Dean Z or anyone else explain the high % of unreported salaries for the latest employment stats yet? 211/371 reporting is abysmal, and despite the low #, the 25% salary fell to 110,000k. On one hand, I applaud Mich. being among the first to release such detailed stats despite the bleak #s, and I think that does reflect well on them. On the other hand, bad numbers are bad numbers.

The salary reporting rate fell off a cliff -- whereas 325 reported salaries in 2009, just 211 reported in 2010.



Michigan's salary reporting rate is on par with Vanderbilt and USC.

I understand why this is troubling. I'm not sure why it happened. I doubt the school had anything to do with it due to how they gather the info. They'd have to outright lie and I don't see them doing that... A much higher percentage report employment. Dean Z has a blog post where she talks about the numbers.

[The Duck]

As you guys buy stuff on Amazon getting ready for school, consider using this link. http://students.law.umich.edu/sff/Amazon.html

It costs you nothing additional but Amazon gives SFF a cut to fund PI grants.

[keg411]

Yea CCRB was bad, and I'm really not one to judge too negatively. Usually I can put up with a lot of shit if they at least have nice machines. CCRB has a layout that made no sense to me - tons of hallways and closed off areas, as opposed to an open feel, the building itself was really old, too. I also found it kind of weird that there was like a separate "room" for treadmills, ellipticals, stair machines, and rowing machines. The machines were also not updated. I'll definitely be getting a membership for the b-school gym. Not that something like that would really influence someone's decision, but still.

I had heard about the terribleness of CCRB before I came. But yeah, I take classes there and it basically blows. I know a couple of people who don't have b-school gym passes that go to the IM building instead, but I think it's only because it's closer to the law school.

I second The Duck's post about the frats only out when it's super nice out... and honestly, the weather is usually not even close to what it's been . Seriously, while the undergrad feel as a whole can be a problem -- it isn't really for class stuff. However, I'm still going to disagree a bit on the 'going out' portion. While Main Street is better than South U in terms of the number of undergrads, there still isn't the same type of "young professional single scene" that there is in a large city. Granted, most people hang out with other law students, but for me it's a frustration at times.

Also, don't feel like y'all have to sugercoat posts in here. I know it can get echo-chamber-y and a little bit too love-y, so if anyone has something they don't like about the school, they should feel free to say it. As much as ASW seemed like a love-in, there are times when I'm unhappy here and I know I'm not alone. But I think you're going to find that at any law school -- especially if you're away from home in a strange place. And for those considering between Michigan and peers: seriously think about your actual comfort level at each school and where you could be see yourself thriving in terms of school work and social life. If it's Michigan -- great! If it's not -- that's great too .

[JoeMo]

I really appreciate everyone's openness and honesty about Michigan, especially the current students.

I've had several opportunities now to interact with Michigan staff, students and alumni and it seems like the common thread in every interaction is how friendly people are and the collegiality that everyone seems to bring up.

I know that at one point I was considering other schools where during visits and such I felt like I was just another number which doesn't seem to be the case with Michigan. Perhaps I'll have a much better opportunity to gauge this in its natural environment next week while I'm at preview.

I do second everyone's thoughts that to make the best decision you should probably visit the other schools. That's how I was able to figure out that there were some schools I just wouldn't feel comfortable at and although I have yet to visit Michigan, I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy the environment. At the end of the day, it's three years of my life and as long as I don't regret it from day 1, I'm sure everything will work itself out.

[UnamSanctam]

Also, don't feel like y'all have to sugercoat posts in here. I know it can get echo-chamber-y and a little bit too love-y, so if anyone has something they don't like about the school, they should feel free to say it.

They can't get past the first round of the tournament. Nearly a deal breaker.

Oh, you meant about the law school.

[crooked]

I know some people have already posted their views, and they've been super helpful, but here's my recap.

I took the Michigan Flyer from the airport and then a taxi to my hotel. I didn't have the luxury of doing that on the way back, since I was in a bit of a rush to the airport and couldn't wait for the shuttle. If it's at all a possibility, though, I'd recommend the Flyer. It's cheaper, it's pretty convenient (short walk in the airport), there's WiFi, and the cab to the airport cost me over $70.

I stayed at the Campus Inn, which was really nice. It was about a 10- to 15-minute walk from all the events, which was a bit of a problem during the tornado but fine the rest of the time. I wished that Michigan had made it clear that I'd be having a roommate for the weekend. I was a bit surprised to get back to my room after the faculty reception to find someone else's bags there. My roommate was lovely, though (as were the rest of the people I met), so it wasn't at all a problem in the end.

Campus is beautiful. Absolutely stunning. I had to keep reminding myself that 70+ degrees and perfect would not be the norm for weather, but I imagine it's also gorgeous in the winter. Ann Arbor is cute and definitely has a college-town feel. If that's your thing, you'll feel very comfortable there. Coming from New York, it obviously felt small, but that was inevitable and expected. The restaurant scene seemed VERY limited to me, which was confirmed by some current students I talked to (and a visit to Yelp). Students seemed relatively laid-back and fairly preppy. When I walked around Ann Arbor, I felt that I was surrounded by undergrads, but the law quad seems sufficiently removed. I loved my undergad and I'm only two years out, so I didn't have a problem with the college feel of the school, but it's definitely there. To me, at least, Michigan feels very much like an insulated and isolated school community, which might not be ideal for someone who's looking to treat law school like a job. That said, the older students said it was a great place to have a family, so I think there could be something for everyone. I did feel like I'd need a car to be really comfortable, but I think the same goes for any school that's not in a big city (and some that are).

As for some specific events:

-The faculty reception was really nice. The faculty members I spoke to were very friendly and seemed quite approachable. They were completely unfazed to be moved into the sauna of a basement when the tornado hit, which I appreciated - I could definitely have understood if they'd been more diva-like about the whole fiasco, but they seemed really good natured overall.
-The housing panel was somewhat helpful. They did a good job of bringing in people who represented the spectrum of housing options. I didn't exactly come away with a sense of what it would be like living in Ann Arbor and commuting to the law school (like how logistically challenging that might be).
-The crim law class was great. The professor's style of Socratic method could be intimidating (when someone wasn't giving her the answer she was looking for, she kept making this "gimme" beckoning gesture with her hand as if to pull the right answer out of them), but the class was really lively and entertaining.
-The mock class was probably my favorite part of the programming. It wasn't so much a mock class as a deconstruction of law school and why professors teach the way they do. His method of "cold calling" was really nice; he called on two people randomly, and even if what they said wasn't exactly on point (which it generally was - well done, cold callees), he would spin it so it fit into his argument. He made a great case for the overall teaching method employed by law professors. One line in particular stood out to me: "I could teach you to be great lawyers without ever teaching you an actual law" (I'm paraphrasing). What he basically meant was that you could be trained to think like a lawyer and analyze and present arguments like a lawyer with entirely made-up rules, jurisdictions and cases. He also said that a fundamental goal of legal training was to teach students to understand other people and to determine the best argument for your audience. I was convinced. He was awesome.
-The faculty panel was quite interesting. The professors were mostly younger (so maybe more willing to talk on panels to prospective students), and they all stressed the accessibility of the faculty at Michigan - this seemed to be very much on message with the rest of the preview weekend. I'd like to know how that accessibility has changed (if at all) with the rise in the student-to-faculty ratio. I definitely got a sense of approachability from the members of the panel.
-The career panel was one of the less helpful parts of the weekend. I appreciated the honest way the alum answered questions about what hiring partners are looking for, but to be frank I tuned out some of that talk.
-The academia/clerkships discussion was excellent, and I include the blaring frat music as part of that excellence. "Margaritaville" played - how could you NOT love that? I thought it was great that Michigan has a dedicated staffer responsible for building and maintaining relationships with judges (with impressive personal experience as a clerk); I definitely bought the idea that the existence of such a position improved Michigan's performance at obtaining clerkships for its students. I also loved J.J. Prescott's presentation. I'm not looking at academia myself, but I was impressed that he took the initiative to start a Student Research Roundtable to encourage the students who are.
-The activities fair was a standard activities fair. Dinner with the students was nothing remarkable (though I loved that they had sangria with the Mexican food). All the students I spoke to at both were friendly and warm and also were willing to make an honest assessment of my law school options, even if their conclusion wasn't that I should wind up at Michigan.
-I also really enjoyed the bar night and the open house at the Phid House.

Overall, it was a great program. Honestly, every person I spoke to at Michigan was great, and the students seem genuinely happy. I'd never understood how someone's decision could be made by a visit - isn't that when every school puts its best foot forward, and shouldn't you have enough skepticism to recognize that? - but I can see it better now.

[bannanagram]

I took the Michigan Flyer from the airport and then a taxi to my hotel.

You can also take the 36 bus from Wolverine Tower down to the hotel if you desire.

Campus is beautiful. Absolutely stunning. I had to keep reminding myself that 70+ degrees and perfect would not be the norm for weather, but I imagine it's also gorgeous in the winter.

It's gorgeous when you are inside, not so much when you are freezing outside despite having on your warmest layers.

Ann Arbor is cute and definitely has a college-town feel. If that's your thing, you'll feel very comfortable there. Coming from New York, it obviously felt small, but that was inevitable and expected. The restaurant scene seemed VERY limited to me, which was confirmed by some current students I talked to (and a visit to Yelp).

It is certainly more limited than a big city, but there is decent food to be had, especially in the Main Street area. We have our fair share of good pubs/martini bars/etc and breakfast places.

Students seemed relatively laid-back and fairly preppy.

Ann Arbor is actually seen as a bit "hippy"...especially when compared to say, Charlottesville. I think there's a decent mix of people.

When I walked around Ann Arbor, I felt that I was surrounded by undergrads, but the law quad seems sufficiently removed.

Eh, you'll find your fair share of undergrads in the Reading Room. If you felt surrounded by them in the city itself, I'd venture to guess you stayed on South U. or right around campus on State. If you hit up some of the places on Main Street (i.e. trivia night at Conor O'Neils, Cafe Zola, Arbor Brewing), you'll find it to feel less undergraddy and more older grad students/young professionals. I agree with Keg that the singles scene is tough, but there are a fair number of older students that get together and hang out as well as a ton of opportunties to get involved in activities in the community and subsequently meet people not associated with the law school if you so desire and make an effort.

[Killingly]

Sooo, is anyone else renting an apartment in The Forum? My lease just went through!

[franklyscarlet]

So I got a message from someone in the admissions office asking me to call them back- are they just doing follow ups or something?

[Killingly]

So I got a message from someone in the admissions office asking me to call them back- are they just doing follow ups or something?

Hmm, it's probably just routine.

[descartesb4thehorse]

I was pleased with the selection of restaurants. There seemed like a ton of good ethnic, cheap choices. The only thing missing is maybe higher end things, but when I did have access to that on a limited student budget, I usually blew wayyyyy too much money. I think I'll be really happy with the selection. Blows Hyde Park out of the water.

[The Duck]

I was pleased with the selection of restaurants. There seemed like a ton of good ethnic, cheap choices. The only thing missing is maybe higher end things, but when I did have access to that on a limited student budget, I usually blew wayyyyy too much money. I think I'll be really happy with the selection. Blows Hyde Park out of the water.

There are some things on Main that are high end. Chop house, black pearl, vinology, etc.