... Forum

[kcdc1]

Lifting anything significant from past exam answers sounds more questionable. That's venturing into the copying other students territory, which seems more relevant to the exam context than failing to attribute a book or law review article. Still might be defensible, depending on what and how much was copied.

Anything on professor slides seems like fair game for verbatim regurgitation. Those are quite literally made to be copied.

[Tls2016]

Thanks for the responses.

When I say 'copied' I mean typed verbatim from my outline onto the test page. I'm not referring to the cut and paste function.

Question: what about people who copied verbatim from the professor's slides, or the professor's speech, or from past-year summaries which they used? Would all this not be considered plagiarism too then? Again, I'm just referring to one-sentence definitions or the ratio of a case in one sentence, not a paragraph of detailed analysis.

I think you should focus on yourself here. The problem you have is that the software will be picking up all these Wikipedia verbatim quotes like a huge red flag.

Do you have a copy of your schools exam policy? Penn clearly creates an exam exception for plagiarism.
But your Professor obviously has a different opinion.

[abl]

Thanks for the responses.

When I say 'copied' I mean typed verbatim from my outline onto the test page. I'm not referring to the cut and paste function.

Question: what about people who copied verbatim from the professor's slides, or the professor's speech, or from past-year summaries which they used? Would all this not be considered plagiarism too then? Again, I'm just referring to one-sentence definitions or the ratio of a case in one sentence, not a paragraph of detailed analysis.

Look, the worst thing you could do is try to argue with your school that it's not that bad or that other people do similar things. Honestly, your arguments on this thread come across self righteous and defensive and if you strike even a remotely similar tone with the administration, I think it's going to dramatically decrease the chances of this ending well for you.

It may well be true that whatever you've done is not that bad or that other people in your class do similar things (although my instinct is that there is a difference between copying verbatim from your professor's slides or speech and copying verbatim from an external source like wikipedia--and the fact that you're in your current position implies that your administration thinks so too). But what really matters here is not whether you're technically in the right, or that you're arguably in the right. What matters is that you limit the impact of this mistake, which is something that could take some finesse and savvy. The best way to do this is to consult a professional. There are lawyers who have devoted their entire careers to helping people in your situation. They're going to know how bad of a shape you're in and what sorts of things you can say or do to help yourself.

Limiting the impact of your mistake here matters a ton. The worst thing that could happen here is pretty bad: you could get kicked out of law school and fail the character and fitness part of Bar admission. If out of stubbornness you decide to handle this yourself, well, you realistically could end up finding yourself out of the practice of law entirely. There are undoubtedly folks who have had their careers tanked for lesser things than this.

tl;dr: Don't be dumb: get a lawyer.

[rpupkin]

But what really matters here is not whether you're technically in the right,

Actually, I think that does really matter, particularly if we're talking about a formal accusation that the OP violated the honor code.

As I posted a bit up thread, I'm curious as to what the "accusation" looks like here. If a professor expressed concern in an email or a conversation during office hours, that's one thing; if the student received a formal notice from the Registrar's Office or a disciplinary committee, that's a lot more serious.

[abl]

But what really matters here is not whether you're technically in the right,

Actually, I think that does really matter, particularly if we're talking about a formal accusation that the OP violated the honor code.

As I posted a bit up thread, I'm curious as to what the "accusation" looks like here. If a professor expressed concern in an email or a conversation during office hours, that's one thing; if the student received a formal notice from the Registrar's Office or a disciplinary committee, that's a lot more serious.

I agree with you that what form the "accusation" takes could matter. E.g., if her professor mentioned it in passing in the halls, it might not be worth hiring a lawyer; but if she received a formal notice from the disciplinary committee, it is. I don't agree that it matters whether the OP is technically in the right. In other words, it's very possible that under the best reading of the disciplinary handbook, the OP did nothing wrong. But school committees regularly take action inconsistent with whatever the "best reading" of school policies is. And it's not going to help the OP if she shouldn't be held guilty of anything if the disciplinary committee determines that she is guilty.

[Desert Fox]

I think you need to hire a lawyer and fight this tooth and nail. This isn't a situation where admit your sins and then get a slap on the wrist. Plagiarizing during law school is pretty much a killshot on your career. You probably won't even pass C&F if you get convicted.

If you are a 1L, I'd just drop out now without even bothering. You'll probably have a red flag forever. If it's 3L, it might be fighting for a not-guilty finding.

Though I suspect abl is right about it coming off terribly. Which is why you need a lawyer to make the argument for you.

[rpupkin]

I think you need to hire a lawyer and fight this tooth and nail. This isn't a situation where admit your sins and then get a slap on the wrist. Plagiarizing during law school is pretty much a killshot on your career. You probably won't even pass C&F if you get convicted.

If you are a 1L, I'd just drop out now without even bothering. You'll probably have a red flag forever. If it's 3L, it might be fighting for a not-guilty finding.

Though I suspect abl is right about it coming off terribly. Which is why you need a lawyer to make the argument for you.

Although I generally agree with your post, I don't understand the bolded. If the OP successfully fought the charge, how would it still amount to a "red flag forever" if he's a 1L, but not if he's a 3L?

[AllisLaw]

This is ridiculous and doesn't make any sense to me. What you are describing does not sound like plagiarism to me. Which subject was it for?

By the way, I graduated in 2011, and just happened to be searching the board for something else today. This post just seemed so odd that I had to respond.

[Desert Fox]

I think you need to hire a lawyer and fight this tooth and nail. This isn't a situation where admit your sins and then get a slap on the wrist. Plagiarizing during law school is pretty much a killshot on your career. You probably won't even pass C&F if you get convicted.

If you are a 1L, I'd just drop out now without even bothering. You'll probably have a red flag forever. If it's 3L, it might be fighting for a not-guilty finding.

Though I suspect abl is right about it coming off terribly. Which is why you need a lawyer to make the argument for you.

Although I generally agree with your post, I don't understand the bolded. If the OP successfully fought the charge, how would it still amount to a "red flag forever" if he's a 1L, but not if he's a 3L?

I guess it depends if he'd have to re-litigate it in front of the C&F and whether the wants to take the risk. Plus law school sucks and legal practice is worse.

[epsilonpegasi]

...

[rpupkin]

The meeting is reasonably formal, in that I got an official letter and will meet with the dean to provide an explanation.

How much does intent matter in a plagiarism case? Because that is the only real defense I have. I can recite forwards and backwards about what constitutes plagiarism on an essay or assignment since that knowledge has been basically forced upon me since birth, but nobody has ever mentioned what constitutes plagiarism in a rushed test environment. There is no official document on the issue either.

Consult a lawyer.

[Tls2016]

Yeah. Don't go meet with the Dean on a formal notice of an honor code violation alone. Call your local bar association and get recommendations.
Edit: deleted quoted OP post

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

The only real defense here is "I forgot that this piece on my outline was lifted word for word from somewhere else," which would make you just negligent instead of malicious (although you'd be guilty just the same). But it sounds like you knew exactly what you were doing. This "I don't know you could cheat on a law school exam" thing--come on man, you know there's no context in which trying to pass someone else's writing off as your own is okay.

I'd stop posting things online and start talking to someone who might be able to salvage your career, which is in serious jeopardy right now.

[acr]

deleted

[jrass]

Could you get a time stamp of your outline? If you prove what you're saying is how it happened you'd have to be a douche to conclude it's plagiarism and the other people saying it unquestionably is are douches.

[xael]

OP, are you being accused of copying wikipedia, or are you being accused of accessing wikipedia during the final?

as in, does the administration or whoever is accusing you realize this came from your outline? at my school the general rule is we can bring whatever we want into the final (unless the professor restricts it) but can't access anything on our computers or online

[jrass]

What about arguing that I was extremely pressured for time and I thought copying something verbatim (which is fast and doesn't require thought) would be preferable to leaving the page completely blank?

This is the worst possible argument. You're arguing you had the specific intent to copy something to do better on a test. I don't think there's possibly a way to describe the situation that reflects more negatively on you.

[Tls2016]

Deleted

[Mr. Jones]

If it's open book, I think you have a good argument. Technically, yes, you've plagiarized. But, would the same standard come down on you if you just copied from your case book instead? Students routinely memorize rules and definitions from outside sources (examples and explanations, etc) and use them on tests, or on your case just copy them from the wiki--without citation. You aren't expected to cite cases on tests (like practicing lawyers do), so if you use a rule from Pearson v Post and don't cite it, is that plagiarism?

I would use that line of logic to attack this. In law school, my professors routinely told us no citations, whether to a case or otherwise. I'm sure the same is for you. Therefore, you have a reasonable expectation that some degree of copy and paste is allowed without citation.

Who knows, maybe it'll fall on deaf ears but at best they see your logic and drop it at worst you have mistake of fact defense. There's probably an academic counsel of sorts in the school you can make the argument to.

[kartelite]

Unlike some people here, I can't say I really blame you as long as you weren't trying to represent something as your own original work. As a math major, many of my tests in undergrad involved proving theorems, and in one class in particular we had regular review quizzes where we were supposed to prove theorems from the book. I would find an empty classroom and copy the theorems down verbatim until I had them all memorized, and then reproduce them on the test. I'm sure my professor knew I was doing that - I'm pretty sure that's what he wanted actually - and on exams with a "cheat sheet," if you happened to write down the full proof of that or another similar theorem onto your sheet, I never would have thought it would be off limits to copy it onto the exam. If it's just a straight definitional question, and you happened to write down or memorize exactly the words your professor used in class, are you prohibited from using them? In some cases it seems like that's exactly what they're after.

[A. Nony Mouse]

But citing and copying are completely different. Not having to cite on tests doesn't make copying on a test okay.

And something published elsewhere isn't the same as your professor's language or a mathematical proof.

It is a bit weird for this to arise about Wikipedia, where the language is often as generic as it can get (but is also often copied word for word from other sources, which is a problem in itself). Certain legal standards/tests are just always worded a certain way. Which is why I wonder if there's something to this other than what the OP is describing (like what xael suggested).

[kartelite]

Certain legal standards/tests are just always worded a certain way. Which is why I wonder if there's something to this other than what the OP is describing (like what xael suggested).

Yeah that's why I thought it was a bit analogous to math, where rewriting things in your own words could change the nuances of a legal meaning. Not saying this was the case here, but I've also made cheat sheets where I honestly couldn't have remembered if something was my own thought, copied verbatim, or perhaps paraphrased from another source.

[abl]

Again, you're doing yourself a huge disservice by (a) leaving your comments up on this thread, and (b) not consulting a lawyer about this. There are undoubtedly many 0L-3Ls on this board (and maybe even a couple of actual lawyers) who will be eager to weigh in with "this isn't so bad!" or "try arguing [x]" advice. And you, no doubt, are confident in your own ability to persuade the dean or committee that this isn't a big deal. But please, please, set aside your ego and at the very least talk with an ethics professional about this all before your meeting.

If you're looking for reassurance that you'll be fine, well, talk with your mom or something. You are not necessarily going to be fine. That's why you need to consult a lawyer. Anyone here who says otherwise is giving you horrible advice.

[robotrick]

I love these kinds of threads because there are always a handful of people eager to jump on their high horses and unequivocally condemn whatever borderline action the OP took.

Taking OP at his/her word, I think a plagiarism violation for copying a one sentence rule statement from wikipedia sounds like a bum rap. I can't help but feel that the fact that the info came from the internet rather than an E&E (and was thus searchable by anti-plagiarism software) is the only thing that separates OP from every other student who uses rule statements from other, paper sources.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It doesn't really matter whether any of us think it's a bum rap, though - it depends what his school thinks.