Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

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Dostoevsky
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Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:34 pm

Out of State exam taker (prepped with Barbri CO online) - curious about whether anyone who took Barbri online to prepare for the July 2013 CO Bar was NOT informed that there would be a character limit, or was provided with essay feedback that did not take character limit into consideration. This is a serious question (although I know what I'm in for) - please be kind :)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

:?: how can there be a character limit when people are still allowed to handwrite the exam? I can't see them counting handwritten characters.

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:49 pm

I'm glad you asked, there is a page limit for handwritten exams. That limit is the one face of three pieces of paper.
This is a serious question though, so I am looking for more responses.

My experience was this: First question was SMJ discussion + venue. I finished SMJ, got 2/5 through venue. Bam, hit a limit that I had never seen before. It has taken some time to feel comfortable discussing this as it took a huge emotional toll, first essay of first exam and BAM, I am deleting double spaces to finish a sentence. I went through three years of law school to run into a formatting issue (I even brought extra sharpeners so others would have) - and Barbri has been mute. I'm thoroughly annoyed. I imagine the kids in the live class must have been told -- I think it was a misstep by Barbri that only affected the kids who took the course online, so if anyone knows anyone who did this, please have them look at this post.

Thank you :)

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Bikeflip
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:56 pm

Sup brah. I took Themis for CO. If you're looking as to whether or not Barbri should have known there was a limit, I can at least tell you that Themis told us about the limit. Not sure how much that'll help you. Good luck though!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:34 pm

Dostoevsky wrote:I'm glad you asked, there is a page limit for handwritten exams. That limit is the one face of three pieces of paper.

Thanks for clarifying, sorry that you had to go through this. I think it's a new thing (though obviously they should have told you).

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:45 pm

So... Themis has software that changes color when you go over the limit.

My Barbri experience was much worse - I wrote a practice essay well over 5k characters (like 5,500) and they replied with an even longer "model answer" - Barbri actually put me at a competitive disadvantage (bc I'm concluding twice on a 4-sub question question - that is 8 conclusions, which become glaringly redundant when you no longer have character space to support them. Bad, bad, bad, Barbri.

I am curious about whether I am the only one in this boat - there must be more online only CO Barbri students?

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Bikeflip
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:06 am

Brah, at the end of the day, it's not like you can go back to the Convention Center and undo anything. MO releases some"detailed" stats about the UBE: https://www.mble.org/getpdfform.action?id=1530

If anything, take a look at the stats and see if it puts you at ease.

Til the 10th, do what everyone else in CO should be doing tonight: hoping Helton gets one last at bat at Coors.

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:10 am

Thank you - I did see the MO stats.

I'm not trying to retake the test, I'm suing Barbri and I am trying to see if anyone else had the same experience as me. IMHO, this is a pretty big oversight.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:12 am

There's no point in suing until you know whether you passed or not.

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Bikeflip
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:15 am

Dostoevsky wrote:Thank you - I did see the MO stats.

I'm not trying to retake the test, I'm suing Barbri and I am trying to see if anyone else had the same experience as me. IMHO, this is a pretty big oversight.



If I were in your shoes, I'd be mad, too. All I'm getting at is try your hardest not to think about it until the 10th. Best case, you knocked the MBE out of the park, and this oversight becomes moot.

NYstate
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby NYstate » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:21 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:There's no point in suing until you know whether you passed or not.

There is no point in suing anyway. What are the damages? You will just get a free class or some shit. How can you prove that this is why you failed? You can pass Colorado on the multistate alone, can't you?

And if you passed you are an idiot for worrying about this.

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:25 am

Actually, I'm not suing because I think I failed - if I managed to pass despite being ill prepared for the format, that's great. It is besides the point, though.

I'm suing because I was not provided what I contracted for. I was definitely Barbri ready - but for a different exam. I didn't buy bar exam success insurance - I contracted with a professional (?) company to prepare me for a professional licensing exam. In a different jurisdiction. Online.

Obviously I know that the goal is to pass the bar exam- but I contracted w Barbri CO to prepare me for the CO exam. What I got was not a CO specific program, and I had a pretty unpleasant experience. I initially asked for a refund and I kid you not, the woman on the phone offered to send me a bottle of tequila.

I then was called by someone saying he was the President. That felt like we went back 20 years, I am female and have never felt like I was not being listened to like on that phonecall. He was from Texas; maybe they treat professional females differently there. He told me I could repeat for free - I thanked him and advised him that I would not repeat Barbri, even for free.

Anyway, I am not taking this without a fight, and I would like to know if anyone else was affected by Barbri Colorado's inattention to detail in preparing and providing their online bar review for July 2013.
I'm writing this to determine whether there are other students who were affected - that is, whether they hit the limit without being prepared to draft a high point value essay in under 5k characters. That's all :)

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:33 am

And ideal damages would be recission, based on a number of theories, including the one that has kept me in California to litigate the issue instead of moving to CO where I assume I'll be licensed.

bottom line is that it is unacceptable to fail to prepare students for what was apparently a well-known requirement. Especially by providing students with model answers that are over the character limit. Also by failing to note character numbers on essays/practice exams. Most glaringly, but tailoring a sample answer to a student's practice essay that is almost 1000 characters too long.

Still think that this is completely OK?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:36 am

But if you pass you won't have any damages, even if they didn't provide what they contracted to provide.

Also, Colorado administers the UBE. Apart from the character limit issue, what Colorado-specific preparation were you not given?

(When I did Barbri it was pretty clearly explained that the model answers are models produced by professionals without time constraints, and thus not actually models of what would pass, but purely aspirational. They admitted no one would produce the model answers under the time constraints involved, so I don't think they were ever going to give you model answers under a particular character limit.)

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LeDique
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby LeDique » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:52 am

Wait, so it's BarBri's fault you didn't read the directions that are available on the Colorado Supreme Court's website? http://www.coloradosupremecourt.com/BLE ... ctions.pdf

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:59 am

LeDique wrote:Wait, so it's BarBri's fault you didn't read the directions that are available on the Colorado Supreme Court's website? http://www.coloradosupremecourt.com/BLE ... ctions.pdf

I *knew* it had to be in there (didn't find it the first time I looked).

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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby NYstate » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:02 am

Dostoevsky wrote:And ideal damages would be recission, based on a number of theories, including the one that has kept me in California to litigate the issue instead of moving to CO where I assume I'll be licensed.

bottom line is that it is unacceptable to fail to prepare students for what was apparently a well-known requirement. Especially by providing students with model answers that are over the character limit. Also by failing to note character numbers on essays/practice exams. Most glaringly, but tailoring a sample answer to a student's practice essay that is almost 1000 characters too long.

Still think that this is completely OK?


Yes. I don't know why you are wasting your time and energy on this. You have no case.
As the above posters showed, the limit is clearly there on the bar examiners website. Your case will be dismissed and you will be on public record as a whiny bitch.

You should let this go and move on to the next thing in your life. Don't get bogged down with your rage. Move forward.

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Bikeflip
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:09 am

Also, regarding the format, even with the 5,000 (or whatever it was) limit, Themis still had 10,000+ character model answers for Colorado. When I saw them, I just lol'd.

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:15 am

Wait so according to this thread, you see no problem with a bar review specifically telling a student "this answer is what we consider doable under CO exam time constraints" - and then it comes up as 5,971 characters - that's ok?

Thank you for pointing that out (re: BOLE instructions). I read the instructions the Saturday before the test as I was flying into CO. I quickly dismissed a 5k character limit as fine - because I had been prepared by Barbri and hand writers got 3 pages per essay.
Keep in mind that my essay responses were all praised. I had no reason to start stressing over a formatting issue that I believed that I was prepared for.

I am not suing the board of bar examiners.
I am suing Barbri. Barbri knew or should have known about the character limit. End of story.
Damages include having to remain in a state that I am not licensed in to litigate. Lost wages.

I knew the nasty comments were coming, but please focus on this: I want to find out if anyone else is in the same situation. Read: I'm no longer asking for opinions, just to see whether anyone else was harmed. It is obvious that this is a glaring omission. I have dealt with some pretty unpleasant fallout.

Thank you for your input!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:56 am

Why on earth do you have to stay in California to litigate the issue? It was an online course. Besides, you still don't have anything to litigate unless you fail - because you decided to jump the gun and sue (and therefore, for whatever, feel you need to stay in CA) doesn't put that on Barbri. I don't think you get to decide you want to sue, and then blame Barbri for the consequences of that decision.

(Frankly, if you really did bump up against the character limit on the actual exam, I'm sure you wrote enough to pass. And if you passed, they prepared you for the Colorado exam, even if they didn't do so in the manner that you, personally, would have preferred. It sounds like what you're really trying to sue about is the emotional distress of hitting the limit on the exam itself, which no one is going to find for you over - unless, just possibly, you fail and you tack it on to that cause of action.)

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Dostoevsky
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Dostoevsky » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:27 am

Again, thank you for your comments.
What I am asking is if anyone else had this problem.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:35 am

Dostoevsky wrote:Wait so according to this thread, you see no problem with a bar review specifically telling a student "this answer is what we consider doable under CO exam time constraints" - and then it comes up as 5,971 characters - that's ok?

Thank you for pointing that out (re: BOLE instructions). I read the instructions the Saturday before the test as I was flying into CO. I quickly dismissed a 5k character limit as fine - because I had been prepared by Barbri and hand writers got 3 pages per essay.
Keep in mind that my essay responses were all praised. I had no reason to start stressing over a formatting issue that I believed that I was prepared for.

I am not suing the board of bar examiners.
I am suing Barbri. Barbri knew or should have known about the character limit. End of story.
Damages include having to remain in a state that I am not licensed in to litigate. Lost wages.

I knew the nasty comments were coming, but please focus on this: I want to find out if anyone else is in the same situation. Read: I'm no longer asking for opinions, just to see whether anyone else was harmed. It is obvious that this is a glaring omission. I have dealt with some pretty unpleasant fallout.

Thank you for your input!


So you even knew about the word limit before taking the exam. lol

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iwakeboard
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby iwakeboard » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:44 am

Dostoevsky wrote:I read the instructions the Saturday before the test as I was flying into CO. I quickly dismissed a 5k character limit as fine


:|

QFBarbriReps

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LeDique
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby LeDique » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:17 am

I hope Barbri cites these posts in your lawsuit. I missed out on being cited in the other one.

But really, I am dying to hear the explanation as to why you have to stay in CA to litigate.

dudeman2014
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Re: Colorado Bar Exam Character Limit

Postby dudeman2014 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:45 pm

Dostoevsky wrote:Wait so according to this thread, you see no problem with a bar review specifically telling a student "this answer is what we consider doable under CO exam time constraints" - and then it comes up as 5,971 characters - that's ok?

Thank you for pointing that out (re: BOLE instructions). I read the instructions the Saturday before the test as I was flying into CO. I quickly dismissed a 5k character limit as fine - because I had been prepared by Barbri and hand writers got 3 pages per essay.
Keep in mind that my essay responses were all praised. I had no reason to start stressing over a formatting issue that I believed that I was prepared for.

I am not suing the board of bar examiners.
I am suing Barbri. Barbri knew or should have known about the character limit. End of story.
Damages include having to remain in a state that I am not licensed in to litigate. Lost wages.

I knew the nasty comments were coming, but please focus on this: I want to find out if anyone else is in the same situation. Read: I'm no longer asking for opinions, just to see whether anyone else was harmed. It is obvious that this is a glaring omission. I have dealt with some pretty unpleasant fallout.

Thank you for your input!


You seriously sound like a huge aspie and you really should reconsider where you are placing the blame. I'm not sure what the computing software that was used to take your exam looked like, but I would bet a pretty penny that it had a running character count somewhere on the screen (especially because there is a character limit on the test). Therefore, since you read the instructions and probably had a character count on your screen, this is pretty much all your fault. Also, if you exceeded such a high character limit, then you probably are one of those kids who just types as fast as possible and regurgitates as much law as you can instead of being clear and concise, so the limit probably HELPED you do better on the exam. For your sanity, you should really just wait and see whether you pass before you work yourself into a frenzy. Lastly, if you DO sue BarBri because you are a delusional aspie, you WILL lose the lawsuit, and you WILL wind up on Above the Law, meaning your name will be forever associated with being a whiny, petulant child. Not exactly the best way to start your legal career.




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