Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

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09042014
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Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 1:26 pm

Or at least almost definitely a bar pass. Note, this is only true for states that don't have a minimum score for written parts, and only true for states with a 50% MBE. 40% or lower, MBE is still huge but it's harder to pass by just MBE.

Lets take Illinois for example. You need 264 points to pass and you can get them from MBE or written (which is scaled to match MBE scoring ranges). Here is what the percentiles looked like last july https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/Percent ... lentCharts

If you get a 150 on the MBE (all scores I'm talking about ITT are scaled, raw doesn't matter), then you only need a 114 (264 - 150) on the written. A 150 MBE isn't that hard, it's the 60th percentile and it only covers 6 subjects. For clean cut, standardized test taking naturals like TLSers this should be more than doable.

So how bad is a 114 written? Look at the chart I linked. It's LOWER than bottom 1%.

If you pull off a 160, 82%, you can get a 104 on written. I'm not sure they even give written scores that low.

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kalvano
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby kalvano » Thu May 30, 2013 1:49 pm

Fucking Texas. 40% MBE, 40% Essay, 10% Texas Evidence and Procedure, 10% MBT.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 5:44 pm

kalvano wrote:Fucking Texas. 40% MBE, 40% Essay, 10% Texas Evidence and Procedure, 10% MBT.


Getting a 160 still probably means AUTOPASS

rad lulz
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby rad lulz » Thu May 30, 2013 5:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Or at least almost definitely a bar pass. Note, this is only true for states that don't have a minimum score for written parts, and only true for states with a 50% MBE. 40% or lower, MBE is still huge but it's harder to pass by just MBE.

Lets take Illinois for example. You need 264 points to pass and you can get them from MBE or written (which is scaled to match MBE scoring ranges). Here is what the percentiles looked like last july https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/Percent ... lentCharts

If you get a 150 on the MBE (all scores I'm talking about ITT are scaled, raw doesn't matter), then you only need a 114 (264 - 150) on the written. A 150 MBE isn't that hard, it's the 60th percentile and it only covers 6 subjects. For clean cut, standardized test taking naturals like TLSers this should be more than doable.

So how bad is a 114 written? Look at the chart I linked. It's LOWER than bottom 1%.

If you pull off a 160, 82%, you can get a 104 on written. I'm not sure they even give written scores that low.

This poast is 160

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 6:10 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Or at least almost definitely a bar pass. Note, this is only true for states that don't have a minimum score for written parts, and only true for states with a 50% MBE. 40% or lower, MBE is still huge but it's harder to pass by just MBE.

Lets take Illinois for example. You need 264 points to pass and you can get them from MBE or written (which is scaled to match MBE scoring ranges). Here is what the percentiles looked like last july https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/Percent ... lentCharts

If you get a 150 on the MBE (all scores I'm talking about ITT are scaled, raw doesn't matter), then you only need a 114 (264 - 150) on the written. A 150 MBE isn't that hard, it's the 60th percentile and it only covers 6 subjects. For clean cut, standardized test taking naturals like TLSers this should be more than doable.

So how bad is a 114 written? Look at the chart I linked. It's LOWER than bottom 1%.

If you pull off a 160, 82%, you can get a 104 on written. I'm not sure they even give written scores that low.

This poast is 160


I want it to get more exposure so that people can check my conclusions.

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los blancos
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby los blancos » Thu May 30, 2013 6:20 pm

Thanks for posting this. My state is 60 essay / 40 MBE so I'm not sure how much it helps in that regard, but this basically means I can easily do the Illinois bar whenever I want if I can cop dat 160 though it requires that you still technically 'pass' the written portion alone - not exactly sure what that means.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 6:22 pm

los blancos wrote:Thanks for posting this. My state is 60 essay / 40 MBE so I'm not sure how much it helps in that regard, but this basically means I can easily do the Illinois bar whenever I want if I can cop dat 160 though it requires that you still technically 'pass' the written portion alone - not exactly sure what that means.


Probably means 132 on written. It might be easier to NOT bring in your old MBE score in that case.

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Bronte
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bronte » Thu May 30, 2013 6:22 pm

I will take a look at the math when I get a chance.

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stratocophic
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby stratocophic » Thu May 30, 2013 6:23 pm

Looks right to me, GA's average MBE score for accredited non-John Marshall lawl students is about 150, and passing is a 270 combined MBE section and essay/MPT section.

They won't even grade your essays if you get less than a 115 on the MBE (guessing because the MBE is just scantron and if you're a moron they don't want to waste time reading your written drivel). If you hit just above the average on the MBE, you're basically home free because you can pass with a written score so bad that if it was your MBE score they wouldn't even bother grading it.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 6:26 pm

Michigan used to not even grade your essays if your MBE was 150+. And there are rumors (which I don't really believe TBH) that other states don't read them either if you get a certain level. I think that's pretty good corroboration that 150 means you'll pass no matter what in a 50/50 state with a 150.

The only thing I'm unclear of is how the written part gets scaled. If you write pure fucking trash does it get scaled to a ~115 anyway, or can you theoretically get an 80.

rad lulz
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby rad lulz » Thu May 30, 2013 6:35 pm

Cannot find the FL scales but those would be helpful

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los blancos
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby los blancos » Thu May 30, 2013 6:37 pm

stratocophic wrote:Looks right to me, GA's average MBE score for accredited non-John Marshall lawl students is about 150, and passing is a 270 combined MBE section and essay/MPT section.


Awesome 'tar




I literally cannot find jack shit about how my state's exam is graded. All I know is 40/60 and the passing score is 350. So a 160 MBE means you need a 190/300 on the essays. No idea what that means.

All in all this shit doesn't seem to difficult.

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stratocophic
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby stratocophic » Thu May 30, 2013 6:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Michigan used to not even grade your essays if your MBE was 150+. And there are rumors (which I don't really believe TBH) that other states don't read them either if you get a certain level. I think that's pretty good corroboration that 150 means you'll pass no matter what in a 50/50 state with a 150.

The only thing I'm unclear of is how the written part gets scaled. If you write pure fucking trash does it get scaled to a ~115 anyway, or can you theoretically get an 80.
Yeah I guess that's the $160,000 question. Bet if it's clear that the writer was just screwing around they wouldn't hesitate to give some BS score that's just a little too low to pass

los blancos wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Looks right to me, GA's average MBE score for accredited non-John Marshall lawl students is about 150, and passing is a 270 combined MBE section and essay/MPT section.


Awesome 'tar
I literally cannot find jack shit about how my state's exam is graded. All I know is 40/60 and the passing score is 350. So a 160 MBE means you need a 190/300 on the essays. No idea what that means.

All in all this shit doesn't seem to difficult.
tyty, wish I was a year older so I could've seen the reign of Cutler in person.

I found all that kind of info on my state's actual bar exam site, they give average MBE scores along with the passing statistics and talk about the actual grading breakdown somewhere else but they don't really explain anything about the essays and how they're graded. Unfortunately, most state's bar sites appear to have been designed in 2001 and it takes forever to find anything useful

daniclfrna
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby daniclfrna » Thu May 30, 2013 7:21 pm

This is not true, at least in California.

I scored 150 on the MBE in California and did not pass the bar.

I had a consistent score on every PT/essay as well. I was close, but no luck.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 7:40 pm

daniclfrna wrote:This is not true, at least in California.

I scored 150 on the MBE in California and did not pass the bar.

I had a consistent score on every PT/essay as well. I was close, but no luck.


Me wrote:40% or lower, MBE is still huge but it's harder to pass by just MBE.


CA Bar weighs the MBE only 35%. So this definitely doesn't work in CA.

Also CA Bar is just hard in general. You basically need a 144 MBE to stay on track to pass, any lower and you need to better on the essays to make up. So your 150, only added got you 21 points of extra room on your writing (out of 1400 passing average for writing).

Illinois for example, you are on track for passing with a 132, so the 150 gets you are ton of space on the writing because there is a bigger gap and it's 50% (compared to 35% CA).

Basically, CA weighs it less, and just has a higher standard.

Foosters Galore
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Foosters Galore » Thu May 30, 2013 7:50 pm

daniclfrna wrote:This is not true, at least in California.

I scored 150 on the MBE in California and did not pass the bar.

I had a consistent score on every PT/essay as well. I was close, but no luck.


What were your "consistent scores" on the essays/PTs? 60s?

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Bronte
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bronte » Thu May 30, 2013 10:02 pm

The scoring of this thing is opaque as fuck, but yes I think what you are saying is right. In Illinois, a scaled score of 150 on the MBE is the 60th percentile, and a scaled score on the essays of 115 is the 1st percentile. This gives you a combined scaled score of 265, which is passing. It looks like getting a 150 on MBE is, very roughly, getting about 70% of the multiple choice right?

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby daniclfrna » Thu May 30, 2013 10:14 pm

Foosters Galore wrote:
daniclfrna wrote:This is not true, at least in California.

I scored 150 on the MBE in California and did not pass the bar.

I had a consistent score on every PT/essay as well. I was close, but no luck.


What were your "consistent scores" on the essays/PTs? 60s?


All of my PT/essay scores were 5 points ~60, so between 57-62.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby I.P. Daly » Thu May 30, 2013 10:22 pm

I believe a 150 MBE + passing bar also allows you to waive into all of the waive-inable jurisdictions (DC, ND, Minn).

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 11:03 pm

Bronte wrote:The scoring of this thing is opaque as fuck, but yes I think what you are saying is right. In Illinois, a scaled score of 150 on the MBE is the 60th percentile, and a scaled score on the essays of 115 is the 1st percentile. This gives you a combined scaled score of 265, which is passing. It looks like getting a 150 on MBE is, very roughly, getting about 70% of the multiple choice right?


At least that is what I think.

The only thing I'm curious about is whether <115 is even possible. Like you said, opaque as fuck.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 30, 2013 11:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Bronte wrote:The scoring of this thing is opaque as fuck, but yes I think what you are saying is right. In Illinois, a scaled score of 150 on the MBE is the 60th percentile, and a scaled score on the essays of 115 is the 1st percentile. This gives you a combined scaled score of 265, which is passing. It looks like getting a 150 on MBE is, very roughly, getting about 70% of the multiple choice right?


At least that is what I think.

The only thing I'm curious about is whether <115 is even possible. Like you said, opaque as fuck.


Ok I found Feb. 2013 score percentiles, and there bottom 2% was at 110 written. So it seems like you can go below 115.

So you cannot totally blow it off, but it's still extremely unimportant compared to MBE (if you are good at it).

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Bikeflip
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bikeflip » Fri May 31, 2013 2:28 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Here is what the percentiles looked like last july https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/Percent ... lentCharts


Playing around on that sheet, the 60th percentile, scaled, is a 150. For a raw score, the 60th percentile, approx, is 137(138)/200. To get 137(138), I just went across the stop sheet and determined where the 60th percentile lied. I've never taken a stats class, so I'm not sure if my math is actually sound. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not. I just don't wanna study right now.

Still, at 137(138), you're getting around 70% correct.

daniclfrna
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby daniclfrna » Fri May 31, 2013 11:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
daniclfrna wrote:This is not true, at least in California.

I scored 150 on the MBE in California and did not pass the bar.

I had a consistent score on every PT/essay as well. I was close, but no luck.


Me wrote:40% or lower, MBE is still huge but it's harder to pass by just MBE.


CA Bar weighs the MBE only 35%. So this definitely doesn't work in CA.

Also CA Bar is just hard in general. You basically need a 144 MBE to stay on track to pass, any lower and you need to better on the essays to make up. So your 150, only added got you 21 points of extra room on your writing (out of 1400 passing average for writing).

Illinois for example, you are on track for passing with a 132, so the 150 gets you are ton of space on the writing because there is a bigger gap and it's 50% (compared to 35% CA).

Basically, CA weighs it less, and just has a higher standard.



Interesting! Thanks,

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Royal
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Royal » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:28 am

Desert Fox wrote:Or at least almost definitely a bar pass. Note, this is only true for states that don't have a minimum score for written parts, and only true for states with a 50% MBE. 40% or lower, MBE is still huge but it's harder to pass by just MBE.

Lets take Illinois for example. You need 264 points to pass and you can get them from MBE or written (which is scaled to match MBE scoring ranges). Here is what the percentiles looked like last july https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/Percent ... lentCharts

If you get a 150 on the MBE (all scores I'm talking about ITT are scaled, raw doesn't matter), then you only need a 114 (264 - 150) on the written. A 150 MBE isn't that hard, it's the 60th percentile and it only covers 6 subjects. For clean cut, standardized test taking naturals like TLSers this should be more than doable.

So how bad is a 114 written? Look at the chart I linked. It's LOWER than bottom 1%.

If you pull off a 160, 82%, you can get a 104 on written. I'm not sure they even give written scores that low.



I thought I was doing well because I've been getting roughly 75% right on torts practice questions. Then I read that chart. Great.

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howell
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby howell » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:03 pm

stratocophic wrote:Looks right to me, GA's average MBE score for accredited non-John Marshall lawl students is about 150, and passing is a 270 combined MBE section and essay/MPT section.

They won't even grade your essays if you get less than a 115 on the MBE (guessing because the MBE is just scantron and if you're a moron they don't want to waste time reading your written drivel). If you hit just above the average on the MBE, you're basically home free because you can pass with a written score so bad that if it was your MBE score they wouldn't even bother grading it.

Yeah, in GA, you can just focus on the MBE and do fine. 2 of the essay questions are the practical ones that take zero knowledge and are totally ace-able if you graduated from law school. The 4 subject matter essays are mostly made up by MBE subjects (last summer's exam was ALL MBE subjects). 80-90% of the points are purely MBE subjects. That percentage was closer to 95-100% last summer.




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