SA • Is Less More

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JO 14
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SA • Is Less More

Postby JO 14 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:52 pm

What would you choose — SA with a V-100 firm or a smaller but very well-established boutique with fortune 500 clients? The boutique option means working close with partners (since the # of SAs are limited), hopefully this is a plus. The boutique is in a prestigious location (I mention that only because I once equated boutique to firms located with an awning over the front door and an elevator wasn’t necessary). Downside is what….? Upside is what….?

(Pay is only slightly less than V-100. I bet the school would opt for V-100, so they could add it to their BL stats.)

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ph14
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby ph14 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:55 pm

JO 14 wrote:What would you choose — SA with a V-100 firm or a smaller but very well-established boutique with fortune 500 clients? The boutique option means working close with partners (since the # of SAs are limited), hopefully this is a plus. The boutique is in a prestigious location (I mention that only because I once equated boutique to firms located with an awning over the front door and an elevator wasn’t necessary). Downside is what….? Upside is what….?

(Pay is only slightly less than V-100. I bet the school would opt for V-100, so they could add it to their BL stats.)


Which has higher permanent offer rates? If that's something you can even get data on for the boutique.

rad lulz
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:00 pm

Whatever has a higher permanent offer rate

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JO 14
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby JO 14 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:00 pm

ph14 wrote:Which has higher permanent offer rates? If that's something you can even get data on for the boutique.

The V-100 is solid. The B is good but not perfect. The B upped their compensation. which makes me believe they wanted better candidates, hopefully that translates to a better chance of an offer.

09042014
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:05 pm

JO 14 wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which has higher permanent offer rates? If that's something you can even get data on for the boutique.

The V-100 is solid. The B is good but not perfect. The B upped their compensation. which makes me believe they wanted better candidates, hopefully that translates to a better chance of an offer.


Good but not perfect? What does that mean? 90%? No problem. But 60% is not a good idea.

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BullShitWithBravado
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby BullShitWithBravado » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:11 pm

ph14 wrote:
JO 14 wrote:What would you choose — SA with a V-100 firm or a smaller but very well-established boutique with fortune 500 clients? The boutique option means working close with partners (since the # of SAs are limited), hopefully this is a plus. The boutique is in a prestigious location (I mention that only because I once equated boutique to firms located with an awning over the front door and an elevator wasn’t necessary). Downside is what….? Upside is what….?

(Pay is only slightly less than V-100. I bet the school would opt for V-100, so they could add it to their BL stats.)


Which has higher permanent offer rates? If that's something you can even get data on for the boutique.


This. Other things that could factor into your decision: Are you interested in making partner? If so, what are your odds at each firm? Which firm provides the best lateraling opportunities? What is the firm culture like?

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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
JO 14 wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which has higher permanent offer rates? If that's something you can even get data on for the boutique.

The V-100 is solid. The B is good but not perfect. The B upped their compensation. which makes me believe they wanted better candidates, hopefully that translates to a better chance of an offer.


Good but not perfect? What does that mean? 90%? No problem. But 60% is not a good idea.

What is "solid"

Also is this all hypothetical?

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JO 14
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby JO 14 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:16 am

Desert Fox wrote:
JO 14 wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which has higher permanent offer rates? If that's something you can even get data on for the boutique.

The V-100 is solid. The B is good but not perfect. The B upped their compensation. which makes me believe they wanted better candidates, hopefully that translates to a better chance of an offer.


Good but not perfect? What does that mean? 90%? No problem. But 60% is not a good idea.

Offered percentage could be misleading considering their small SA pool….. if 3 of 4 are offered 75%. This year the SA count was 4 but one reneged (received last minute SA in their home market) so only 3. I take that to mean working even closer with the partners.
BullShitWithBravado wrote:Other things that could factor into your decision: Are you interested in making partner? If so, what are your odds at each firm? Which firm provides the best lateraling opportunities? What is the firm culture like?

In checking the B web site (and in talking with associates) partner seems obtainable in 5 years. I do not know the lateral possibilities, I assume better at the V. On the other hand why lateral if partnership is in the offing. Do not know the firm culture, hoping for friendly and not a sweat shop. I understand B says we will not have to be concerned with after hour outings — do not know if that is good news, a red flag or part of a culture.

To answer an earlier question, this is not hypothetical — just second guessing.

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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:21 am

What is V100 offer rate. I'm guessing 90%+

I don't think there's any way I'd take a boutique w a 75% offer rate though just from the information you have given

With firms like that, it's all about money. If they have enough work for 3, they'll take 3. If they don't they won't.

Larger firms tend to like to keep high offer rates every year

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romothesavior
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:42 am

I would personally lean towards the boutique assuming that's your preference. But you better make sure that this is a "This is your job offer to lose, we intend to hire you" situation and not a "We'll see what happens, we'll offer you if we like you and have room" situation. You can flat out explain your concerns and ask the hiring person at this stage.

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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:46 am

romothesavior wrote:I would personally lean towards the boutique assuming that's your preference. But you better make sure that this is a "This is your job offer to lose, we intend to hire you" situation and not a "We'll see what happens, we'll offer you if we like you and have room" situation. You can flat out explain your concerns and ask the hiring person at this stage.

If they do say the former, question whether they really mean it.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:57 am

romothesavior wrote:I would personally lean towards the boutique assuming that's your preference. But you better make sure that this is a "This is your job offer to lose, we intend to hire you" situation and not a "We'll see what happens, we'll offer you if we like you and have room" situation. You can flat out explain your concerns and ask the hiring person at this stage.


This is good to discuss, but I've heard stories of hiring partners explicitly telling SAs that sort of bullshit ("we are prepared to give everyone offers and it's yours to lose) and then no-offering a substantial amount of people because they took on a class that was too big in retrospect. So I would go into those discussions still skeptical of any assurances. That said, if they don't even bother to try to sell you that sort of line and they are pretty non-committal, that should set off huge warning bells.

rad lulz
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:59 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I would personally lean towards the boutique assuming that's your preference. But you better make sure that this is a "This is your job offer to lose, we intend to hire you" situation and not a "We'll see what happens, we'll offer you if we like you and have room" situation. You can flat out explain your concerns and ask the hiring person at this stage.


This is good to discuss, but I've heard stories of hiring partners explicitly telling SAs that sort of bullshit ("we are prepared to give everyone offers and it's yours to lose) and then no-offering a substantial amount of people because they took on a class that was too big in retrospect. So I would go into those discussions still skeptical of any assurances. That said, if they don't even bother to try to sell you that sort of line and they are pretty non-committal, that should set off huge warning bells.

Agree with this

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JO 14
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby JO 14 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:37 am

To me this decision has two initial components. First, the offered question. Second, what firm offers the best longevity and the best opportunity for promotion.

The B offered question is obviously a concern. However, I believe they are committed. They increased the compensation $30K to attract better SAs for the purpose of keeping them. On the other hand the V is 100% (to my knowledge). I could verify this if I knew the link.

The hypothetical question: If you could choose between an offer at a typical V and an offer at a much smaller but successful B, which would you take? The B has been around for +25 years and handles Fortune companies (but no way are they in the same league as the V100).

If you chose B, is it because making partner quicker is tempting (which is how I look at it), or is there some other reason? If you chose V, why? Perhaps the chance to make really big money down the road, or . . . . ?

rad lulz
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:40 am

JO 14 wrote:To me this decision has two initial components. First, the offered question. Second, what firm offers the best longevity and the best opportunity for promotion.

The B offered question is obviously a concern. However, I believe they are committed. They increased the compensation $30K to attract better SAs for the purpose of keeping them. On the other hand the V is 100% (to my knowledge). I could verify this if I knew the link.


Yeah I'd take the big firm

The hypothetical question: If you could choose between an offer at a typical V and an offer at a much smaller but successful B, which would you take? The B has been around for +25 years and handles Fortune companies (but no way are they in the same league as the V100).

If you chose B, is it because making partner quicker is tempting (which is how I look at it), or is there some other reason? If you chose V, why? Perhaps the chance to make really big money down the road, or . . . . ?


Depends on offer rates

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JO 14
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby JO 14 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:03 am

Before heading out I checked on this particular V100's hiring rate .... 94.7%.

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thelawyler
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby thelawyler » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:26 am

Contact the 4 people who SA'd there last year and ask about their experiences (do this politely and professional)

Especially contact the person who decided not to go there and maybe be a bit more blunt in asking why they decided to leave.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:29 am

if the firm is listed on nalp you can track their offer rates.

is this a 1l sa or 2l sa? what is the ratio of partners to associates? you need to research the shit out of the boutique firms.

while ultimately, longevity is important, the problem is if you get no-offered you can quickly go from sugar to shit in a relatively short amount of time. so the priority is to get offered in the first place.

also note that the associate to partner ratio can be deceptive, especially in firms where the partners are largely laterals.

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JO 14
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby JO 14 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:32 am

If I only focused on the offer rate (94.7%) then it is an easy choice.

I still would like to get a feel of: what is the benefit (or downside) of working closely with partners versus being a SA in a bullpen… of course I am not positive BL SAs work in a bullpen. Do they, usually?

Follow-up on earlier questions: Boutique Partnership ratio is about 50:50. However, through cohorts, I have come to understand that not all partners are created equal (no matter the firm). After my best shot at due diligence I feel comfortable about being offered if I do well as a boutique SA... but no, not 94.7% comfortable.

I thank everyone for your input. I will likely repost this question later in the “ask a lawyer” section to see if any attorneys selected a boutique over a V100, and what their experience was like at a boutique. And did any of them laterall from a V100 to a boutique (or vice-versa) and why.

Again thanks.

09042014
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby 09042014 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:25 pm

JO 14 wrote:If I only focused on the offer rate (94.7%) then it is an easy choice.

I still would like to get a feel of: what is the benefit (or downside) of working closely with partners versus being a SA in a bullpen… of course I am not positive BL SAs work in a bullpen. Do they, usually?

Follow-up on earlier questions: Boutique Partnership ratio is about 50:50. However, through cohorts, I have come to understand that not all partners are created equal (no matter the firm). After my best shot at due diligence I feel comfortable about being offered if I do well as a boutique SA... but no, not 94.7% comfortable.

I thank everyone for your input. I will likely repost this question later in the “ask a lawyer” section to see if any attorneys selected a boutique over a V100, and what their experience was like at a boutique. And did any of them laterall from a V100 to a boutique (or vice-versa) and why.

Again thanks.


Caring about the quality of work is a good idea for your long term career, but during the SA it's really not an issue. BL SA's get their own office unless you are in New York where you have to share an office.

lukertin
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby lukertin » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:28 pm

Be careful at boutiques. If they run into an unanticipated scarcity of work they will not hesitate to jettison new associates.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: SA • Is Less More

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:54 pm

also, how are you distinguishing boutiques from midlaw?




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