Depressed About Grades Forum

[pastapplicant]

3.35 GPA at CCN. I know I should be grateful for what I have yet I can't help but feel a bit let down that I will never make law review now and etc. Anyone else depressed due to the law school curve?

Had similar grades after first semester. Then made law review, got my first choice firm, and graduated with honors. Plenty of time to improve. Don't stress out. Find out how to do better and focus on that.

can you give me any tips? that sounds awesome

[Icculus]

In any event, what you posted in the above quoted post is not what you were claiming further up, i.e., that grades basically don't matter.

My claim is this: mixed As & Bs + networking > Straight As + LR + no networking

I never said grades don't matter

That's still a bad claim, at least regards OCI.

Successful networking results in people who are inside the firm pulling for you before OCI even begins. A good 1L job should give you opportunities to meet lawyers at top firms. It's simply false that being one of the faceless dozens w/ top-10% from a T-14, or one of the faceless dozens on a journal, is more important than having lawyers on the inside at a firm actively championing your hire before OCI has even begun.

Top 10% at a T14 + LR is going to do well at OCI provided they have any interview skills or they can carry on a conversation. I would rather be in that position than in your top 40% and networking. Grades >>>> anything else for OCI. Yes, top 40% will probably get an offer, top 10 is going to have multiple offers and be able to make choices. Stop spreading bad info.

[KidStuddi]

In any event, what you posted in the above quoted post is not what you were claiming further up, i.e., that grades basically don't matter.

My claim is this: mixed As & Bs + networking > Straight As + LR + no networking

I never said grades don't matter

That's still a bad claim, at least regards OCI.

I'll go a step further and say it's a bad claim without qualification. You're either disingenuous or a fool if you're trying to argue that "networking" is anywhere near as important as grades or LR for getting hired into BigLaw, especially at the elite firms. Knowing some random or associate or partner might get you in the door for a screener or maybe even a callback, but it's certainly not going to exempt you from the hiring committee process in place at basically any firm of a given size. Your grades and credentials and your evaluations from your interviews are going to decide your fate then.

Successful networking results in people who are inside the firm pulling for you before OCI even begins. A good 1L job should give you opportunities to meet lawyers at top firms. It's simply false that being one of the faceless dozens w/ top-10% from a T-14, or one of the faceless dozens on a journal, is more important than having lawyers on the inside at a firm actively championing your hire before OCI has even begun.

I guess my 1L SA wasn't a "good" one by these standards and so I've got to ask what kind of 1L summer experience leads to connections with attorneys at multiple top firms who are all willing to go to bat for you in a serious way? Furthermore, what kind of pull do you imagine a random associate or even a random partner has in hiring decisions unless he or she happens to sit on the recruiting / hiring committee?

I can see maybe a mentor or something going to bat for you like this and succeeding. But an acquaintance? A networking contact? It just seems so implausible that anyone could parlay more than a few of these relationships into an interview / callback that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Meanwhile, top 10% and LR, absent a malignant personality disorder, is beating firms off with a stick.

[ph14]

In any event, what you posted in the above quoted post is not what you were claiming further up, i.e., that grades basically don't matter.

My claim is this: mixed As & Bs + networking > Straight As + LR + no networking

I never said grades don't matter

That's still a bad claim, at least regards OCI.

I'll go a step further and say it's a bad claim without qualification. You're either disingenuous or a fool if you're trying to argue that "networking" is anywhere near as important as grades or LR for getting hired into BigLaw, especially at the elite firms. Knowing some random or associate or partner might get you in the door for a screener or maybe even a callback, but it's certainly not going to exempt you from the hiring committee process in place at basically any firm of a given size. Your grades and credentials and your evaluations from your interviews are going to decide your fate then.

Successful networking results in people who are inside the firm pulling for you before OCI even begins. A good 1L job should give you opportunities to meet lawyers at top firms. It's simply false that being one of the faceless dozens w/ top-10% from a T-14, or one of the faceless dozens on a journal, is more important than having lawyers on the inside at a firm actively championing your hire before OCI has even begun.

I guess my 1L SA wasn't a "good" one by these standards and so I've got to ask what kind of 1L summer experience leads to connections with attorneys at multiple top firms who are all willing to go to bat for you in a serious way? Furthermore, what kind of pull do you imagine a random associate or even a random partner has in hiring decisions unless he or she happens to sit on the recruiting / hiring committee?

I can see maybe a mentor or something going to bat for you like this and succeeding. But an acquaintance? A networking contact? It just seems so implausible that anyone could parlay more than a few of these relationships into an interview / callback that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Meanwhile, top 10% and LR, absent a malignant personality disorder, is beating firms off with a stick.

Can you not attribute that statement I was arguing against to me?

[somewhatwayward]

OP I had a 3.33 at CLS after the first semester (and at the end of the year as it turned out)....unfortunately I had 3 grades out of 7 where the professor told me I was the highest B+ (ie, if I had gotten one more point, I would've gotten an A-). Before law school I had always had super high grades, both at a very competitive prep school and then at HYP, so I was pretty upset. Over all my years of high school and college, I had probably gotten like 3 or 4 grades less than an A- and now I had six of them in one year. At CLS, you can write on to law review, but I was a neurotic mess during the week of the write on (and my 1L year in general) and did not produce a good response even though I am a good writer, so I did not make law review.

But there is light a the end of the tunnel. I am going to a V5 after I graduate; I have raised my grades a lot (my post 1L grades have been 11 A+/A/A- grades and 2 B+); I am on a secondary journal, and my note is being published, vindicating that terrible write-on response. No, I did not attain all the law school accolades that are the equivalent of what I received in undergrad, and, even though people will deride me for this, that feel sucks. But on the whole everything turned out pretty well as far as law school goes. It could be much worse.

Really, though, that is advice for someone whose grades and journal membership are set in place. Yours aren't! So seriously go figure out what you can improve on from your exams from last semester and outline/take practice exams like a MOFO this semester and bring your grades up. When the law review write-o comes along, give it your all, and maybe you will write on. Nothing is set in stone for your right now, so there is no reason to be depressed! You can improve this semester if you put the time in. A 3.35 is pretty decent considering who you are up against. Sometimes I think people don't realize how stiff and deep the competition is at top schools (like some guy on here who said he thinks if someone doesn't make law review, they aren't special and distinguished from their peers - well, IM(potentially biased)O, not making law review at a CCN does not mean you are an average un-special person but anyway...). A 3.35 suggests that you knew the material and had a decent test-taking approach, so you are starting from a good place. Good luck!

[spondee]

3.35 GPA at CCN. I know I should be grateful for what I have yet I can't help but feel a bit let down that I will never make law review now and etc. Anyone else depressed due to the law school curve?

Had similar grades after first semester. Then made law review, got my first choice firm, and graduated with honors. Plenty of time to improve. Don't stress out. Find out how to do better and focus on that.

can you give me any tips? that sounds awesome

Not really. Remembered feeling the same way, so wanted to say it can still work out.

I'd say focus on what you're doing wrong. For me, I spent too much time making an outline the first semester, not enough practicing. And I thought that "argue both sides" meant have a direct counterpoint for every point. Once I realized that a large part of a law school exam is showing that you can evaluate the strengths of different arguments (via which you include/exclude, how you organize them, introduce them, time spent on each, etc), I got infinitely better. I stopped making stupid arguments just to have a direct counterpoint and instead focused on thinking about which ones the attorneys for each side would emphasize. And tried to be sure that the plaintiff or prosecutor made their whole case, even the uncontested elements. But those were the things that I needed to change, so that may not be helpful for you.

[SportsFan]

I have a 3.33 at Penn after this semester. Honestly, I'm not totally happy, but I'm not really too concerned either. Just gonna try my best again this semester and hopefully raise it to the 3.4-3.5 range.

[UnamSanctam]

OP, just do a secondary journal if you really have that much self-loathing.

Seriously. Holy shit at the striverism.

[pastapplicant]

OP I had a 3.33 at CLS after the first semester (and at the end of the year as it turned out)....unfortunately I had 3 grades out of 7 where the professor told me I was the highest B+ (ie, if I had gotten one more point, I would've gotten an A-). Before law school I had always had super high grades, both at a very competitive prep school and then at HYP, so I was pretty upset. Over all my years of high school and college, I had probably gotten like 3 or 4 grades less than an A- and now I had six of them in one year. At CLS, you can write on to law review, but I was a neurotic mess during the week of the write on (and my 1L year in general) and did not produce a good response even though I am a good writer, so I did not make law review.

But there is light a the end of the tunnel. I am going to a V5 after I graduate; I have raised my grades a lot (my post 1L grades have been 11 A+/A/A- grades and 2 B+); I am on a secondary journal, and my note is being published, vindicating that terrible write-on response. No, I did not attain all the law school accolades that are the equivalent of what I received in undergrad, and, even though people will deride me for this, that feel sucks. But on the whole everything turned out pretty well as far as law school goes. It could be much worse.

Really, though, that is advice for someone whose grades and journal membership are set in place. Yours aren't! So seriously go figure out what you can improve on from your exams from last semester and outline/take practice exams like a MOFO this semester and bring your grades up. When the law review write-o comes along, give it your all, and maybe you will write on. Nothing is set in stone for your right now, so there is no reason to be depressed! You can improve this semester if you put the time in. A 3.35 is pretty decent considering who you are up against. Sometimes I think people don't realize how stiff and deep the competition is at top schools (like some guy on here who said he thinks if someone doesn't make law review, they aren't special and distinguished from their peers - well, IM(potentially biased)O, not making law review at a CCN does not mean you are an average un-special person but anyway...). A 3.35 suggests that you knew the material and had a decent test-taking approach, so you are starting from a good place. Good luck!

Thanks bro. I too was shocked at how stiff the competition was here even though I should have expected it.

[stillwater]

Welcome to the machine, OP.

[KaNa1986]

I can think of several firms that will laugh at top 40% from T10 law schools. Like, off the top of my head.

Really. Care to name them? I'm hard pressed to think of a v-10 (save the two) that didn't callback or offer people in the 30-50% range. They certainly didn't laugh at me.

The V10 aren't necessarily the most selective firms and are a poor metric in general. W&C, MTO, Susman, Keker, Boies are all very selective, just to name a few. Also, "save the two" is terrible anti-S&C trolling.

In any event, what you posted in the above quoted post is not what you were claiming further up, i.e., that grades basically don't matter.

"save the two" sounds more like terrible anti-CSM trolling than anti-S&C trolling.