Is there hope even outside of law? Forum

[Professor_Rau]

For those who know they are terrible failures at legal interviewing (think 48 preselects and 1 callback, top grades, LR, top 15 school), what did you do to fix yourselves after OCI? Is there even hope outside of the legal profession with such shortcomings?

I decided to get screened for Asperger Syndrome and speech abnormalities (childhood deafness/isolated homeschooled childhood/behavioral problems as a child/no friends as a child, but some friends now). But supposing everything comes up as "normal," what to do? I am pretty sure I want to drop out of law school if I don't somehow get a SA in the next few weeks, but I am afraid that whatever it is that caused me to fail OCI will cause me to fail everything else in life also.

What have others in this scenario done to figure out their interpersonal problems? I have some good friends I got feedback from - but how would I go about addressing these things? Will these things make me a failure in everything else also? If so, what would I do to fix them?

1. anxious/uptight/"overthinks" [friend #1]
2. speech is too formal and not colloquial at all, unlike most lawyers. [friend #2]
3. voice sounds a little bit weird/monotone (childhood deafness, but not everyone agrees it sounds off) [several friends, anon. TLS poster]
4. doesn't really move head or body much while talking. Seems tense. But makes decent eye contact. [practicing attorney, something I noticed in a videoconference interiview]
5. Has trouble personalizing things. See also #2. [CSO]
6. Answers to standard law interview questions are overly "canned" or "commercialized." See #5. [CSO]
7. Makes a point to smile but doesn't really express genuine emotion. Fake smile. [friend #3]

A sectionmate wrote:

And yeah, I guess you're generally a little bit awkward (but so are a lot of law students). I don't think you're exceptionally awkward, though, and i can think of many others who are worse.

I have a very non-understanding family who thinks that I can succeed in law firm interviews by doing certain things "on command" like "be more confident" or "get more exercise - to be more relaxed" and that a JD is useful regardless of whether one wants to practice law. I'm not sure what to do, or how to fix myself for any decent career. Seeing a psychiatrist has not really helped since they are only trained to deal with things like depression, not the things on my list (or I haven't found one yet anyway...). Is what I'm doing (getting screened for Asperger/HFA) the right direction, or should I be doing something else?

[thesealocust]

Self-reflection and self-improvement are really important traits to have - so kudos for being proactive!

Having said that, blowing a round of interviews is blowing a round of interviews - not self-diagnosing as worthless. You may or may not want to be a lawyer/stick out law school, but what a bunch of legal recruiters think of you does not correlate with your value as a human being.

And sometimes it really just is a combination of bad luck and mediocre interviewing skills.

Everyone has a different set of ambitions, talents, and pleasures. Nobody can tell you how to turn yourself into the best professor_rau possible: only you can do that. But in general, getting out of your comfort zone (formally via clubs that focus on things like giving speeches or informally via social groups), attending to personal health/hygiene/style, and doing things to make yourself an interesting person (life is all about story telling) are good things to have on the to-do list, whatever stage of life you're in.

[lukertin]

Law firms don't know how to interview people for positions, I wouldn't stress out about it, if you are afraid about failing at life (outside of law).

[IAFG]

Ugh, what terrible timing, for you to need to work on these things at this particular stage of your legal career. You must be so stressed.

Still, I absolutely think there is hope. Keep pushing for a therapist who can give you the tools to overcome your social difficulties. Even with Aspergers, it's definitely possible to get there. You're very hirable on paper, congratulations! I believe that means there are lots of other doors you can open for yourself, if you keep an open mind, consider where you're most likely to be successful, and hustle hard.

[Professor_Rau]

Ugh, what terrible timing, for you to need to work on these things at this particular stage of your legal career. You must be so stressed.

Still, I absolutely think there is hope. Keep pushing for a therapist who can give you the tools to overcome your social difficulties. Even with Aspergers, it's definitely possible to get there. You're very hirable on paper, congratulations! I believe that means there are lots of other doors you can open for yourself, if you keep an open mind, consider where you're most likely to be successful, and hustle hard.

Does this mean inside law or outside of law? What inside law is still available to me? I am mostly stuck with big law since every small law firm I've talked to starts yacking about me not having done mock trial or moot court, things I am not going to do.

Big Fed/clerkships often requires travelling to an interview at one's own expense. Not going to happen with my history... I could make more $$ as an SAT instructor in Shanghai than as an employee in state government or shit law. Really, I need big law. Big law is the gateway to just about everything else in law.

I have a callback interview at a large firm in D.C. (I only mass-mailed DC as a last resort) that I got with no screener. How should I handle it? It seems like I've tried everything. What should I do differently this time? I am glad to have friends who can give feedback, but some of those things on my list seem awfully hard to fix if, in fact, they are the deal breakers (and it isn't something else that I missed...something I keep wondering...)

[Professor_Rau]

Law firms don't know how to interview people for positions, I wouldn't stress out about it, if you are afraid about failing at life (outside of law).

How so? What do they look for? What aspect of this do I not have?

[Pokemon]

First of all, apply and keep open the clerkship route. Firm interviewers are a completely different breed than judge interviewers. They are 20 minute screeners, by bored young attorneys, who do not care about your capabilities past your GPA. Judges are older and they care a lot more about work product instead of whether they are going to have a beer with you.
Be relaxed in your DC interview, and prepare for it being longer than most interviews. That is all... do not go there with baggage in your mind about interviewing skills... etc... At the end of the day, they are calling you because they like something about you.

[IAFG]

Ugh, what terrible timing, for you to need to work on these things at this particular stage of your legal career. You must be so stressed.

Still, I absolutely think there is hope. Keep pushing for a therapist who can give you the tools to overcome your social difficulties. Even with Aspergers, it's definitely possible to get there. You're very hirable on paper, congratulations! I believe that means there are lots of other doors you can open for yourself, if you keep an open mind, consider where you're most likely to be successful, and hustle hard.

Does this mean inside law or outside of law? What inside law is still available to me? I am mostly stuck with big law since every small law firm I've talked to starts yacking about me not having done mock trial or moot court, things I am not going to do.

Big Fed/clerkships often requires travelling to an interview at one's own expense. Not going to happen with my history... I could make more $$ as an SAT instructor in Shanghai than as an employee in state government or shit law. Really, I need big law. Big law is the gateway to just about everything else in law.

I have a callback interview at a large firm in D.C. (I only mass-mailed DC as a last resort) that I got with no screener. How should I handle it? It seems like I've tried everything. What should I do differently this time?

It might mean in or outside law. If you really do have some diagnosable issue with people, you may decide for yourself that some career paths are better than others. Not getting a summer gig hurts, but it doesn't have to be the end of the road, for firms or otherwise. Particularly not with a strong resume.

$3k really doesn't sound like a lot compared to the cost of attending law school, or the payoff of gainful employment. Unemployment is pretty expensive too. Biglaw is the best and easiest way, and an SA is the best and easiest way to get biglaw, but it's not the only way. And if biglaw is foreclosed upon, do you really want to teach LSAT in Shanghai for the rest of your life? Would you rather earn short-term $$ than build a career?

As for what you need to do differently, only someone physically present with you can help you with that.

[lukertin]

Law firms don't know how to interview people for positions, I wouldn't stress out about it, if you are afraid about failing at life (outside of law).

Most people don't know how to interview (Interviewer, I mean. Interviewees also are guilty of this). Law firm interviewers, however, are notorious for not knowing how to interview.

How so? What do they look for? What aspect of this do I not have?

Start with this guy: http://corcodilos.com/blog/

[mrtoren]

Does this mean inside law or outside of law? What inside law is still available to me? I am mostly stuck with big law since every small law firm I've talked to starts yacking about me not having done mock trial or moot court, things I am not going to do.

Big Fed/clerkships often requires travelling to an interview at one's own expense. Not going to happen with my history... I could make more $$ as an SAT instructor in Shanghai than as an employee in state government or shit law. Really, I need big law. Big law is the gateway to just about everything else in law.

I have a callback interview at a large firm in D.C. (I only mass-mailed DC as a last resort) that I got with no screener. How should I handle it? It seems like I've tried everything. What should I do differently this time? I am glad to have friends who can give feedback, but some of those things on my list seem awfully hard to fix if, in fact, they are the deal breakers (and it isn't something else that I missed...something I keep wondering...)

That's your problem. Right there. You want BigLaw? So does everyone else. However, you've got yourself so strung-out about it that you're self-destructing in the interviews. You sound like a brilliant kid, but you're going to be trumped by lesser-qualified applicants unless you calm down. Your fear of missing out on BigLaw is going to make you miss out on BigLaw. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

[jgc02a]

For those who know they are terrible failures at legal interviewing (think 48 preselects and 1 callback, top grades, LR, top 15 school), what did you do to fix yourselves after OCI? Is there even hope outside of the legal profession with such shortcomings?

I decided to get screened for Asperger Syndrome and speech abnormalities (childhood deafness/isolated homeschooled childhood/behavioral problems as a child/no friends as a child, but some friends now). But supposing everything comes up as "normal," what to do? I am pretty sure I want to drop out of law school if I don't somehow get a SA in the next few weeks, but I am afraid that whatever it is that caused me to fail OCI will cause me to fail everything else in life also.

What have others in this scenario done to figure out their interpersonal problems? I have some good friends I got feedback from - but how would I go about addressing these things? Will these things make me a failure in everything else also? If so, what would I do to fix them?

1. anxious/uptight/"overthinks" [friend #1]
2. speech is too formal and not colloquial at all, unlike most lawyers. [friend #2]
3. voice sounds a little bit weird/monotone (childhood deafness, but not everyone agrees it sounds off) [several friends, anon. TLS poster]
4. doesn't really move head or body much while talking. Seems tense. But makes decent eye contact. [practicing attorney, something I noticed in a videoconference interiview]
5. Has trouble personalizing things. See also #2. [CSO]
6. Answers to standard law interview questions are overly "canned" or "commercialized." See #5. [CSO]
7. Makes a point to smile but doesn't really express genuine emotion. Fake smile. [friend #3]

A sectionmate wrote:

And yeah, I guess you're generally a little bit awkward (but so are a lot of law students). I don't think you're exceptionally awkward, though, and i can think of many others who are worse.

I have a very non-understanding family who thinks that I can succeed in law firm interviews by doing certain things "on command" like "be more confident" or "get more exercise - to be more relaxed" and that a JD is useful regardless of whether one wants to practice law. I'm not sure what to do, or how to fix myself for any decent career. Seeing a psychiatrist has not really helped since they are only trained to deal with things like depression, not the things on my list (or I haven't found one yet anyway...). Is what I'm doing (getting screened for Asperger/HFA) the right direction, or should I be doing something else?

Dude you are seriously overthinking all this!! Go get some drinks, hell get drunk, and socialize! that will help you more than anything.

[NotMyRealName09]

For those who know they are terrible failures at legal interviewing (think 48 preselects and 1 callback, top grades, LR, top 15 school), what did you do to fix yourselves after OCI? Is there even hope outside of the legal profession with such shortcomings?

I decided to get screened for Asperger Syndrome and speech abnormalities (childhood deafness/isolated homeschooled childhood/behavioral problems as a child/no friends as a child, but some friends now). But supposing everything comes up as "normal," what to do? I am pretty sure I want to drop out of law school if I don't somehow get a SA in the next few weeks, but I am afraid that whatever it is that caused me to fail OCI will cause me to fail everything else in life also.

What have others in this scenario done to figure out their interpersonal problems? I have some good friends I got feedback from - but how would I go about addressing these things? Will these things make me a failure in everything else also? If so, what would I do to fix them?

1. anxious/uptight/"overthinks" [friend #1]
2. speech is too formal and not colloquial at all, unlike most lawyers. [friend #2]
3. voice sounds a little bit weird/monotone (childhood deafness, but not everyone agrees it sounds off) [several friends, anon. TLS poster]
4. doesn't really move head or body much while talking. Seems tense. But makes decent eye contact. [practicing attorney, something I noticed in a videoconference interiview]
5. Has trouble personalizing things. See also #2. [CSO]
6. Answers to standard law interview questions are overly "canned" or "commercialized." See #5. [CSO]
7. Makes a point to smile but doesn't really express genuine emotion. Fake smile. [friend #3]

A sectionmate wrote:

And yeah, I guess you're generally a little bit awkward (but so are a lot of law students). I don't think you're exceptionally awkward, though, and i can think of many others who are worse.

I have a very non-understanding family who thinks that I can succeed in law firm interviews by doing certain things "on command" like "be more confident" or "get more exercise - to be more relaxed" and that a JD is useful regardless of whether one wants to practice law. I'm not sure what to do, or how to fix myself for any decent career. Seeing a psychiatrist has not really helped since they are only trained to deal with things like depression, not the things on my list (or I haven't found one yet anyway...). Is what I'm doing (getting screened for Asperger/HFA) the right direction, or should I be doing something else?

Dude you are seriously overthinking all this!! Go get some drinks, hell get drunk, and socialize! that will help you more than anything.

This seems to be a recurring subject here (personality issues and careers), but saying "go get drunk" won't help someone with true social anxiety (or whatever the real clinical term is) - and OP presents as such a person. Not saying just jumping into the fire isn't something to consider (just go out, have fun, interact), but sounds like there is more at work here than just shyness.

OP - See what the doctors say - perhaps Zanex is what you need or something, or perhaps even more intensive therapy. And straight up tell your psychiatrist - I think I have some sort of personality disorder, social anxiety, whatever you want to call it - I just cannot relax and act "normal" in social situations, particularly under stress, and its affecting my career prospects. And if you don't like the psychiatrist, just tell them you'd like to speak to another psychiatrist and could they please offer a referal for a second opinion.

And don't drop out - you wouldn't be the first one to strike out at a SA in law school, but you have the grades and academic credentials, something WILL come your way, probably in a way you cannot foresee now. More simply - you have talent, don't throw it away. Continue to pursue professional help, and also, as hard as it might be, just keeping trying to get out into social situations.

If your anxiety (or whatever) makes you afraid to interact, so you avoid interacting, perhaps just confronting your fear is required here. Confide in your friends who know you - tell them you know you need to get better at social networking and whatnot, and ask them to help you get out - it may include going to bars or whatever, but go with a wingman. Tell them its hard for you but you don't want to live your entire life this way, so screw it, lets go out.

You don't sound hopeless. You see there is a problem and want to fix it, so you can. The temptation is to go turtle - withdraw, drop out, throw your hands up in defeat - but that is too easy. You're attacking the problem, so keep at it. Maybe even get active in some sort of law school group or whatever - you won't magically become non-awkward unless you get out there are interact. And if your problem is based in part on a lack of interaction as a kid, well, get out there now!

Good luck.

[BeachandRun23]

I feel bad for you man. If you've been striking out this hard here it's not clear transferring to NYU is going to solve this for you but I guess it gives you a second shot at OCI.

There's two solutions here...

1) TEMPORARY: be relaxed, and talk to the interviewer like a friend. Don't be so serious. Don't only talk "business." Smile and act comfortable. Don't be a man in someone else's environment. Be yourself. Interviewing is kind of like dating. It takes practice and you can't be afraid of failing. You need to be friendly and outgoing and appear comfortable with yourself and the environment.

How's your dating life? Seriously, I think interviewing and meeting guys/girls are more related than you think. It takes a very similar skill set to succeed in my opinion. Which brings me to #2...

2) LONG-TERM: see a therapist. This is not a short-term solution. It may take months of seeing one but I think it will help you make more friends and relate to people. Solve problems in your life. Are there things you wish you were better at? Getting dates? Making friends? Being something you're not now?? You can work on it. It's your life. As long as you are open and honest, someone can help you. Think of it like a life coach.

Best of luck bud.

[Professor_Rau]

As far as the socializing, how would you guys deal with a situation where a person cannot really talk to people in bars because of the loud noise? Also, I've noticed at some social events, especially ones involving alcohol, it's hard to focus on anything and not go crazy when people shout and talk all at once. I find loud noises and chaos very unnerving. Even if I don't freak out, I can't focus on what any one person is saying when multiple people are talking.

As far as careers, what do you guys think about adding an MPA (accounting qualification - from a very good school), assuming it would incur minimal debt and then exclusively pursue options with auditing firms or federal regulatory agencies? A lot of both hire attorneys. Since the work is very technical and requires being good at math, I would imagine those places might filter out some of the types of people who tend to clean up at big law interviews/callbacks. Even with no accounting training, I landed an interview PWC, NY upcoming in 2 weeks.

Don't get me wrong. I can interact with people very professionally. It's just that I tend to be quiet and, in the words of some other friends, "don't project energy and enthusiasm." That is due to anxiety, but I'm not sure it comes across as anxiety so much as it comes across as nonchalance and being excessively stiff and formal. Apparently, these things are toxic in big law interviews, particularly with Texas firms.

Oh, I also just landed a paid state government position (City of Austin, one of the business development departments) that often converts into FT. They interviewed 4 people for one position. Also got an offer from the DA's office that required an interview. I also worked before law school and got jobs and scholarships that required interviews.

Could someone tell me how it is that I seem to be able to succeed in some interviews, including some legal interviews, but not in big law interviews? What is it about these that are so difficult and mystifying? Is it just that they are more competitive since they pay better (not sure I would ever take the City of Austin job full time)?

[shock259]

Personally, I don't really like meeting new people in bars for a lot of the reasons you listed. Doesn't make us bad people. There are plenty of other places to meet people.

Congrats on getting that position, though!

For biglaw interviews versus regular interviews, I am certain that you are building up the biglaw interview to be something mystical/terrifying/etc. And then you just set yourself up for failure. It's a really hard cycle to break unfortunately, even when you know that you are totally psyching yourself out.

I would definitely get in touch with a therapist though. The best thing that they can do is give you a new perspective. If you are like me, you revisit and analyze your perceived problems and the solutions frequently. But your analysis is probably pretty much the same. A therapist's outside perspective can be really helpful for breaking through and coming up with new understandings and solutions.

[Kikero]

I seem to be able to succeed in some interviews, including some legal interviews, but not in big law interviews?

Looks like you answered your own question. If you've landed a gov job and other non-legal jobs in the past, there is definitely hope outside of law. There's probably hope in the legal field too. Just try not to get too down on yourself for doing poorly in a couple interviews over a short period of time. I'm a 1L, so I don't have any experience with legal interviews to give advice on, but I do have experience with anxiety and "shyness" and it's definitely something that can be overcome.

Good luck!

[PaulKriske]

Dude you are seriously overthinking all this!! Go get some drinks, hell get drunk, and socialize! that will help you more than anything.

this is terrible advice. why does everyone seem to think that drinking and then socializing (which is obviously the inevitable result of drinking in these types of posts) is the golden ticket?

[Professor_Rau]

In the meantime, what can I do to keep myself from failing out? There is one class I can't even get up for most of the time, and for the others, I am not keeping up, and given my energy levels, I don't see that changing soon. I'm sure it sounds like I'm whining, but I've honestly never felt this way in my life before. I have had a well-rounded life and have seen my share of past disappointments and hardships that didn't have much of an effect. I can't explain why I have no energy at all, can't really hold a conversation, and am not really interested in anything.

Is there a way I can change everything to pass-fail if I get a letter from a physician, or drop out and get refunded for the semester? One of my classes is graded 50% on "participation" (it's kind of a seminar class). That's the one I have trouble getting up for. Don't say go see a psychiatrist because I have, and it hasn't helped. Only fixing the underlying problem or getting some closure on the Asperger thing will help.

I'm wondering if I should drop Law Review. It hasn't helped me get a job, it's a huge time sink, and it's depressing to have to listen to people talk about their 2 dozen offers and the stress of figuring out how to "split summers."

[Samara]

Maybe try taking a public speaking, theater or improv class? Should help you think on your feet, improve your speaking abilities, and relate to other people.

[Professor_Rau]

The last thing I need is more classes when I am already failing the classes I have.

I also tried some of those suggestions in the past. I worked a lot on the public speaking, though. I turned into an ok--maybe even a good-- public speaker. But relating to people in more intimate settings is actually a completely different skillset. Acting is not something I've done much. It's probably a good idea. I just don't have the energy right now.

[IAFG]

In the meantime, what can I do to keep myself from failing out? There is one class I can't even get up for most of the time, and for the others, I am not keeping up, and given my energy levels, I don't see that changing soon. I'm sure it sounds like I'm whining, but I've honestly never felt this way in my life before. I have had a well-rounded life and have seen my share of past disappointments and hardships that didn't have much of an effect. I can't explain why I have no energy at all, can't really hold a conversation, and am not really interested in anything.

Is there a way I can change everything to pass-fail if I get a letter from a physician, or drop out and get refunded for the semester? One of my classes is graded 50% on "participation" (it's kind of a seminar class). That's the one I have trouble getting up for. Don't say go see a psychiatrist because I have, and it hasn't helped. Only fixing the underlying problem or getting some closure on the Asperger thing will help.

I'm wondering if I should drop Law Review. It hasn't helped me get a job, it's a huge time sink, and it's depressing to have to listen to people talk about their 2 dozen offers and the stress of figuring out how to "split summers."

Can you get a medical leave of absence while you shop for the appropriate therapy?

[Professor_Rau]

In the meantime, what can I do to keep myself from failing out? There is one class I can't even get up for most of the time, and for the others, I am not keeping up, and given my energy levels, I don't see that changing soon. I'm sure it sounds like I'm whining, but I've honestly never felt this way in my life before. I have had a well-rounded life and have seen my share of past disappointments and hardships that didn't have much of an effect. I can't explain why I have no energy at all, can't really hold a conversation, and am not really interested in anything.

Is there a way I can change everything to pass-fail if I get a letter from a physician, or drop out and get refunded for the semester? One of my classes is graded 50% on "participation" (it's kind of a seminar class). That's the one I have trouble getting up for. Don't say go see a psychiatrist because I have, and it hasn't helped. Only fixing the underlying problem or getting some closure on the Asperger thing will help.

I'm wondering if I should drop Law Review. It hasn't helped me get a job, it's a huge time sink, and it's depressing to have to listen to people talk about their 2 dozen offers and the stress of figuring out how to "split summers."

Can you get a medical leave of absence while you shop for the appropriate therapy?

How would that work to quit mid semester? I imagine I would have to repay some tuition. If I stayed how should I approach my professors, one of whose classes I've skipped about 1/3 of the time? Should I go to Student Affairs first? I have a form from the university health services saying I have clinical depression.

[IAFG]

How would that work to quit mid semester? I imagine I would have to repay some tuition. Is it possible to just memorize an outline heavily based on an old outline the last week and still do well in 2L classes? Then what about the class ridiculously weighted towards participation?

I am pretty sure my school would let you take a leave of absence and come back, if you were actively being treated for something debilitating like depression. The only way to find out is to talk to the school.

It may get you a second bite of the OCI apple too. The way I see it, you don't have much to gain from toughing it out, considering where things stand for you academically and professionally.

[Professor_Rau]

How would that work to quit mid semester? I imagine I would have to repay some tuition. Is it possible to just memorize an outline heavily based on an old outline the last week and still do well in 2L classes? Then what about the class ridiculously weighted towards participation?

I am pretty sure my school would let you take a leave of absence and come back, if you were actively being treated for something debilitating like depression. The only way to find out is to talk to the school.

It may get you a second bite of the OCI apple too. The way I see it, you don't have much to gain from toughing it out, considering where things stand for you academically and professionally.

What about tuition/scholarships? I was hoping to tough it out this semester and see if something came through or if Big Fed was a possibility (missed the DOJ deadline, and DHS, State Dept, etc. hire in November and December), knowing that I could redo OCI as a 2L with 3 semesters.

If it weren't for the financial issue, I would probably quit now. Since they pay my tuition, I am afraid I would be on the hook for a lot of money if I quit mid semester. Can they do that even if it's for medical reasons?

[IAFG]

What about tuition/scholarships? I was hoping to tough it out this semester and see if something came through or if Big Fed was a possibility (missed the DOJ deadline, and DHS, State Dept, etc. hire in November and December), knowing that I could redo OCI as a 2L with 3 semesters.

If it weren't for the financial issue, I would probably quit now.

You are asking a lot of questions that only your administration can answer. The best way to make decisions is after you've done your information-gathering.