What happens if you are below median at T14?

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msblaw89
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What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby msblaw89 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:35 pm

Just wondering if anyone has any experience in this boat? 50% at the T14 are below median, so are they just shit out of luck? What type of jobs can they pursue? biglaw out of the question completely?

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Law Sauce
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby Law Sauce » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:17 pm

msblaw89 wrote:Just wondering if anyone has any experience in this boat? 50% at the T14 are below median, so are they just shit out of luck? What type of jobs can they pursue? biglaw out of the question completely?


Biglaw is not out of the question, but there is a risk. Bottom third or so is in bigger trouble. Middle third has solid shot. Everyone below median (and somewhat above median as well) ought to target nonselective firms with large class sizes and firms that you have connections to. This almost always means firms in NYC and in your home markets. Where grades are not as important you must show yourself to be excellent in other ways.

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TTTLS
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby TTTLS » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:35 pm

http://blahblah.xoxohth.com/thread.php? ... 1db5a4f703

It was your own fault for listening to the idiots on TLS who recommended you go to the best school you could get into regardless of cost. You probably could have managed a decent scholarship elsewhere.

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Pate
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby Pate » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:04 pm

You might check the thread, V15 Senior Associate/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions. Even with hiring not kicking in at desired levels and the market flooded with experienced out of work lawyers and a huge law class hitting OCI, a high median could be viable at a highly ranked school. I am guessing that a high median means top 40% (if your school breaks out that data). If not, I guesstimate that one "B" is about all the stress a good median score can handle (assuming your other scores are A- and B+), unless you have a couple A’s.

My comment above was mainly about securing a good job, as far as Big Law, not sure about that.
Last edited by Pate on Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:05 pm

Define "below median". If you're in the middle 1/3, employers at OCI can't really tell you apart from median. The curve is very compressed in that region, and employers aren't splitting hairs between 3.35 and 3.25. If you are bottom 10%, then you're in a different situation.

Generally, even below median, some sort of decent firm job remains on the table. What really sets apart outcomes in this range is hustle, not grades. You have to treat getting a job like its your full-time job. That means sending targeted mails to every firm in every geographic region you have plausible ties to. And not just one or two every day, but 50-75 targeted mails a week from when OCI starts to until you get an SA offer. It means not letting up on the job hunt when you get your first callback, but following through until you have an offer in hand. It means working your network, and tailoring every single e-mail to a firm to make it seem like you're the perfect candidate for the work they do. It means being systematic and thorough--spreadsheets and the like to track your application status at each firm, whether you followed up, what partners you talked to, etc.

People on TLS act like if a school places 60% into big law, then someone in the bottom 40% has no hope of getting big law, but it's absolutely not like that. Firms might reject the bottom 10-20% based on just grades, but outside that, they're open to candidates who seem like they fit the bill. Especially smaller offices in major markets and firms in secondary markets who don't see a lot of T14 grads applying. People here also act like everyone is systematically job-searching and coming up short. That's not true. I'd say a minority of people really psycho-gun job searching. Most people send out a few applications each week to places that look interesting and call that job searching. Below-median grades are absolutely a killer if you approach job searching like that. Firms won't hire you for your grades, and you make it obvious you have nothing else to offer.

ajaxconstructions
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby ajaxconstructions » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:19 pm

Pretty fucked.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:23 pm

ajaxconstructions wrote:Pretty fucked.


Pretty blunt. LOL.

Anyways, OP, it really depends on how far below median. Like someone above said, if you are in the mushy middle, then it is not that big of a disadvantage and you could still land BigLaw. If you are noticeably below the median, the ajax's comment is pretty accurate.

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kwais
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby kwais » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:26 pm

It should be mentioned that this is heavily dependent on school. Stanford and GULC students below median have very different prospects

lawyerwannabe
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:29 pm

kwais wrote:It should be mentioned that this is heavily dependent on school. Stanford and GULC students below median have very different prospects


Ya. It might break down like this.

1) HYS = who cares
2) CCNP = probably OK as long as not way below median
3) MVDNC = getting dicey
4) G = really dicey
Last edited by lawyerwannabe on Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceWayne
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:31 pm

If you're below median at a top 14 you can definitely get a firm job but you will have to hustle as others have told you. I think the main thing is targeting your home market and I mean really targeting it. Apply to any and ALL firms from your home market that hire summers--not just the one's coming to your school's OCI and that are listed on NALP. This is going to be your best bet if you're from a non NYC focused top14. If you're at CCN Penn or Cornell and you're well below median, you probably still has a good shot at NYC. If not then your home market should really be your primary target--especially if you ended up at a top 14 that's got an especially strong rep in your home market (i.e UVA in the South, Michigan in the midwest, or Boalt in California). GO TO JOB FAIRS!
lawyerwannabe wrote:Ya. It might break down like this.

1) HYS = who cares
3) CCNP = probably OK as long as not way below median
3) MVDNC = getting dicey
4) G = really dicey


The only differentiation in here that's accurate is the bolded. Otherwise it doesn't work like that. It's much more complicated.

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Pate
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby Pate » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:18 pm

Does anyone have an estimate on how many grads NYC hires every year? Thinking of median, if the top 10 schools placed a half of their students into NYC, that would roughly be 1,500 NYC hires. Seems like a lot, especially with that one big firm going belly up. For that reason can I assume most of these hires are a direct result from OCI and that these BL hires encompass a lot of other cities like DC, LA, Chicago, Philly, etc.

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homestyle28
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby homestyle28 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:22 pm

Am I the only one thinking "Ask me again in 6 months?"...back to the grade waiting.

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rayiner
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby rayiner » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:26 pm

Pate wrote:Does anyone have an estimate on how many grads NYC hires every year? Thinking of median, if the top 10 schools placed a half of their students into NYC, that would roughly be 1,500 NYC hires. Seems like a lot, especially with that one big firm going belly up. For that reason can I assume most of these hires are a direct result from OCI and that these BL hires encompass a lot of other cities like DC, LA, Chicago, Philly, etc.


NYC has 94 NALP offices with a total of 17,000 attorneys. The new NALP website doesn't have the table-generation the old one did, but last I checked, there were 2,000 SA's in NYC for summer 2010, half of them in the V10. NYC hires 1/4-1/3 of all NALP SA's in the whole country.

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msblaw89
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby msblaw89 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:19 pm

If a firm is not listed on NALP that means....?

rad lulz
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:23 pm

I heard from the multitude of threads about this same issue that median is a bright-line cutoff between mottles n baubles and penury.

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niederbomb
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby niederbomb » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:32 pm

msblaw89 wrote:Just wondering if anyone has any experience in this boat? 50% at the T14 are below median, so are they just shit out of luck? What type of jobs can they pursue? biglaw out of the question completely?


You will be unemployed, eventually homeless, and then in jail for not having an address at which you can receive notice of collections hearings unless you have an extremely extroverted personality and have at least a dozen extracurricular activities and leadership positions. Just being a hot female doesn't cut it anymore either. Plenty of hot females get above median. A few even get on law review. Winning a school-wide moot court competition might help a little bit. If your parents are wealthy or know any prominent politicians, now is the time to start making phone calls!!

But seriously, it depends. Do you have other qualities to offer that aren't fungible with thousands of other law students?


r6_philly
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:54 am

msblaw89 wrote:Just wondering if anyone has any experience in this boat? 50% at the T14 are below median, so are they just shit out of luck? What type of jobs can they pursue? biglaw out of the question completely?


People with good backgrounds (finance, IP, etc.) regularly get great jobs from below median.

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dingbat
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Re: What happens if you are below median at T14?

Postby dingbat » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:55 am

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