Considering sending a T14-->HYS Transfer app Forum

[Po$eidon]

So I finished first semester with a 3.75 GPA, which puts me about or slightly above the top 15% of my lower T-14 school after first semester. I have a nearly full tuition scholarship at my T14, and I really like my school (lots of friends here). However, we're pass/fail this semester and due to delayed OCIs, our 2L fall grades suddenly matter a bunch. I worry that I could end up doing much worse in the Fall during a bad economy (2L Fall is going to be much busier for me and we may still be remote, which is BAD for me) when my current grades might very well be enough to get into a HYS and safer ground.

Other info:

I have an SO (married). We were able to get him a job here after much effort. Moving him a second time, in this economy, scares me.

I think I'd potentially be able to over-perform my GPA. I have two profs from this semester that I am sure would write me glowing recommendations.

I'm planning biglaw for now. I have a 1L SA this Summer, in fact. I was originally planning to go transactional, but I've been wavering and am currently not sure whether I would like to do transactional practice or litigation. If I went litigation I could see myself clerking (but I'd only want to clerk at a high level).

I am an excellent teacher (taught before law school). I have considered academia. It is not a big enough issue to dramatically outweigh an otherwise better decision if a better decision otherwise exists.

I am not sure what location I want to end up in law school. My 1L SA is in the area my school is in, and I could absolutely see myself staying here after law school for biglaw. OTOH, I lived in NY for 12 years before this and miss it. I could see myself going there too.

Questions: Should I bother sending a transfer app? If I do send apps, and I get in somewhere, should I go?

[Fireworks2016]

I have a nearly full tuition scholarship at my T14, and I really like my school

No, don't transfer.

[Pneumonia]

I would not transfer in your shoes.

Even ignoring your scholarship and your SO's job, I'm not sure HYS would give you a meaningful employment bump.

[lavarman84]

Seems like you don't really know what you want to do after law school. You're in a good spot now. I'd stay where you are.

[Necho2]

Don't do it. Big scholarship, SO work situation, and strong grades push pretty strongly against that. It's hard for me to imagine an economic scenario where top-quarter (hedging a little) at a T14 loses out to HYS employment-wise.

[Po$eidon]

Don't do it. Big scholarship, SO work situation, and strong grades push pretty strongly against that. It's hard for me to imagine an economic scenario where top-quarter (hedging a little) at a T14 loses out to HYS employment-wise.

I suppose my fear is that I’m top-quarter now when I could apply to HYS but might not be in January when it counts for OCI. I doubt I’d be having these thoughts if OCI were still in August and my current GPA was what I was running with.

[Po$eidon]

Seems like you don't really know what you want to do after law school. You're in a good spot now. I'd stay where you are.

Definitely an accurate read. Not really sure at all. I had planned transactional but torts, civpro, and conlaw have been my best subjects. I guess in a way that might have made me think about this idea because HYS is known for providing a broader range of outcomes to graduates. I’m absolutely happy where I’m at though.

[Necho2]

Don't do it. Big scholarship, SO work situation, and strong grades push pretty strongly against that. It's hard for me to imagine an economic scenario where top-quarter (hedging a little) at a T14 loses out to HYS employment-wise.

I suppose my fear is that I’m top-quarter now when I could apply to HYS but might not be in January when it counts for OCI. I doubt I’d be having these thoughts if OCI were still in August and my current GPA was what I was running with.

That's a completely fair concern with spring OCI but I just think that the downsides of transfer (more debt, SO work situation up in the air) outweigh the chance of you doing poorly enough fall semester 2L to materially impact your employment outcome. Assuming evenly weighted semesters, you'd have to fall below median to really pull yourself below the top 1/3 (right? you said you are currently top 15%?) and I'd bet against that happening. Everything else (no highfalutin goals, fairly vague understanding of different law jobs, comfortable working in NY) counsels against a transfer.

Also re clerking- "high level" isn't a particularly meaningful distinction, assuming you're doing a federal one. Don't worry about this now, but good grades at a T14 should make you competitive, but doesn't necessarily put you in a position to be overly choosy regarding which one you want. Based on personal experience I suspect you only have a vague sense of what clerking is (same for me after one set of grades!), so that really isn't important right now. Also liking classes=/=choosing lit or transactional. It's a bummer that you probably won't have a particularly hands-on first summer, but don't let liking Civ Pro, etc. influence how you choose between practice areas later on. Only class that I would say matters for those purposes is legal research and writing- if you HATE that, most types of big firm litigation will probably not appeal to you.

[ksm6969]

I wouldnt do it either, but (since you seem like you might be thinking about it anyway), try to estimate how much need based aid H/Y/S would give you (I'd start with H, since that's the most likely to accept you). Since you say you are married, it is possible you are older, and if you are over 28 or something, they dont look at parental income. So you could potentially qualify for lots of need based aid (if you are old AND dont have many assets). Thats the only case in which I would even think about it.

But don't do it. H is not like a magical place (can't speak to Y/S) that it is worth debt or uncertainty or moving for. Especially if you are open to work in NY, no reason to transfer.

[QContinuum]

I guess in a way that might have made me think about this idea because HYS is known for providing a broader range of outcomes to graduates. I’m absolutely happy where I’m at though.

Y/S (and to a lesser extent H) make those other outcomes possible, but they don't hand them out like party favors. Folks don't just sleepwalk from Yale into an impact litigation gig with the ACLU, or an international human rights job at the UN, or a senior in-house role at a hot new Silicon Valley startup just getting off the ground. The folks who get those jobs are 200% pushing for them from day one. Put differently, Y/S/H put you in a position to hustle for those jobs, but (i) success is still far from guaranteed, and (ii) it takes a heckuva lot of hustling to even make success a realistic possibility. (The difference is that at a "lower" T13, you might not even be in a position to hustle effectively.)

If you go to Y/S/H and just kind of drift along with no specific goals in mind beyond doing well in classes and maybe writing on to Law Review, you will end up in BigLaw by default, same as if you hadn't transferred, which remains by far the path of least resistance.

[plurilingue]

I don’t think that top 15% at a lower T14 is a lock for this transfer, either. Top 2% is a lock, top 5% is a very good shot, and top 10-15% is a minimally qualifying grade sheet. It could happen — particularly with some stellar softs or other hook — but it’s much less likely than not. I don’t see the harm in filing an application, but even if admitted, losing a full-tuition scholarship in this economy for really no better outcome than a large law firm gig (that you already have) seems questionable.

Also, you are probably competitive for any New York firm short of WLRK if that’s your goal. The rest is down to your practice interests and presentation. Given that you have a 1L SA, I wouldn’t be too concerned about presentation. And you can always take some countercyclical classes like bankruptcy, DIP finance and maybe even L&E if you need to.

If you are concerned about fall 2L grades, remember that each law school has different rules about who is on the curve and who isn’t. For example, at NYU and Columbia, LLM students are on the same curve as JD students; at Berkeley, they are not. LLM-heavy classes tend to be difficult to do badly in, though I note the tippy top of the curve isn’t really any more accessible. If you don’t already know what the policy on grading is at your law school, you aren’t doing law school correctly. Smaller classes, such as esoteric seminars, are also often off the curve.

Strategically picking your classes next semester so as to eschew star professors (who attract gunners), clerkship-oriented classes like Federal Courts (which also attract gunners and often overlap with the aforementioned star professors) and doctrinal classes for the bar like Evidence and Criminal Procedure (which substantially replicate the 1L curve) is also a good idea if your goal is to maintain the quality level of your grade sheet.

[QContinuum]

I generally agree with plurilingue's excellent post above, with the single exception of the quoted snippet below:

doctrinal classes for the bar like Evidence and Criminal Procedure (which substantially replicate the 1L curve) is also a good idea if your goal is to maintain the quality level of your grade sheet.

At least at my T14 - and this may be different at other schools, granted - "bar classes" were not very popular, and especially not popular with the gunners/Law Review crowd. So things like Secured Transactions, or Family Law, or Conflict of Laws - these were actually good choices, because they attracted an eclectic crew and if you were very motivated, the sky was the limit, because the creme de la creme wasn't taking those classes. The creme de la creme was knocking themselves out in Fed Courts and con law/impact litigation seminars.

(Evidence is an exception, granted. Everyone wants to take Evidence, including the gunners.)

[nixy]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said here already, especially that I think your grades are unlikely to drop enough to put you at risk of not getting a good job. Keep in mind you'll have another semester of practice at taking law school exams, even though this semester will be, well, pretty unrepresentative. And I agree about strategic course choices (another strategy may just be to take subjects you're excited about if, like me, you struggle to do well in classes you aren't interested in).

But I also wanted to address one nitpicky point:

I am an excellent teacher (taught before law school). I have considered academia. It is not a big enough issue to dramatically outweigh an otherwise better decision if a better decision otherwise exists.

I don't mean this to sound condescending, because you may well know this already, but without meaning any disrespect to the law profs out there who are also excellent teachers, excellent teaching and legal academia are almost entirely unrelated to each other. The coin of the realm for academia is publishing, and teaching is just what you do as part of the job that you get, keep, and advance in by publishing. The reason to go into legal academia is being excellent at research/writing (which you may also be, of course), not being an excellent teacher.

The exception is if you're considering being a clinical instructor or legal writing/research instructor, both of which are generally judged only on teaching skills. Each of these will require more relevant practice experience than academia generally; they're also less pedigree conscious, in that actual practical experience is much more important to getting hired. A T14 will be more than sufficient pedigree for these kinds of positions.

I know you're not weighing this heavily right now, and I think that's correct. I still just wanted to throw that out there.

(How much to weigh your spouse's job is a very personal decision, but I'll note that moving him again somewhere to find a new job, in the current economy, would scare me too.)

[QContinuum]

I don't mean this to sound condescending, because you may well know this already, but without meaning any disrespect to the law profs out there who are also excellent teachers, excellent teaching and legal academia are almost entirely unrelated to each other. The coin of the realm for academia is publishing, and teaching is just what you do as part of the job that you get, keep, and advance in by publishing. The reason to go into legal academia is being excellent at research/writing (which you may also be, of course), not being an excellent teacher.

Agree and I'd even highlight that someone who is great at and loves teaching, but who dislikes research/writing, should not go into legal academia at all. They'd be miserable, because 70+% of the job in terms of time/effort - and 100% of how you get hired, get tenured, etc. in the job - is down to research/writing.

(And, yes, clinical instructors/LRW instructors are hired solely to teach, but those positions are typically part-time adjunct positions that don't offer benefits and pay very little, and are more of a "fun" thing to do for successful and/or "semi-retired" lawyers than a feasible career track for a new grad. Besides, those positions rarely hire new grads to begin with - schools like hiring seasoned lawyers to teach those classes.)