Where can I get in? Top 20-25% at T-20 Forum

[UCalltheway]

Hi all, I've been a TLS-er for a while, but I wanted to post this without outing myself so I created a new username (I only realized until after that you can post anonymously...brilliant)

Anyway, I'm a 1L at WUSTL and I just got my grades back, and depending on my memo grade (A or A-....I only received the raw score, but scored significantly higher than the mean and quite close to the top score) I'll either have a 3.7 or a 3.76 for this semester. While they have yet to release the GPA rankings, in previous years it has ranged from 25% to 15%, but a 3.7 has always been at least top 25% (does that make sense?)

Well anyway, I would really like to transfer to a top 10, preferably University of Chicago, but I'm not quite sure of my chances. So a few questions I was hoping all you savants (and I really mean that-you guys are all brilliant) could help me with:

A) Should I apply early decision to University of Chicago? Or do you need higher grades to do that?
B) What are my chances at other T-10s? I'd only want to apply to around 3-4, but I was looking at Penn, Columbia, NYU, and, alternatively, Northwestern
C) With my grades, and I have some slight connections with partners in a few firms around STL, what are my chances of getting a 1L SA?
D) I have a fairly large scholarship at WUSTL, and I know I would pay sticker wherever I transferred. I would ultimately want to practice biglaw in Chicago so which situation would be best? (I know Northwestern may not be a very good move because of the debt, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the rest of the schools please)

Thanks in advance!!!

[downbeat14]

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[UCalltheway]

[/quote]
If you have solid grades and can keep that up for another semester, why leave and take on an ass load of non-dischargeable debt? Try to get WUSTL to increase your financial aid, and you should get BL from there with those grades. Work your ass off though, bc only 29% of WUSTL gets big firms. A little slippage in grades could equal a strikeout.[/quote]

Well I would really like to be in Chicago for the next two years, but I agree that doesn't make a great deal of sense considering the debt I would take on, but only two big firms (that I know of) in STL have firms in Chicago that I could foreseeably laterally transfer to, so I assumed I would need to get into a school in Chicago or NY to really have a chance to compete in that market. What do you think my chances would be of getting in?

In terms of grades, I know nothing is for certain, but basically I went into last semester almost completely blind (without any advice from 2L's, outlines, etc), and now I have a firm idea of what worked for me and what didn't, and how to work more efficiently, so I'm fairly confident I can at least keep these grades consistent.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I have a fairly large scholarship at WUSTL, and I know I would pay sticker wherever I transferred.

This is a very important consideration. If it's like 100k difference you have to really think about it. If you transfer you may underperform at OCI and strike out, whereas if you are in the top 25% at WUSTL you will have a solid chance for big law with minimal debt. I think honestly it may make more sense to transfer if you are in the 20-25% range at WUSTL because you can pay for the T14 brand name. If you end up top 10% at WUSTL I'm not really sure why you would transfer because you will have a very good chance at big law unless there is something weird about your application/personality, and if that's the case you will have the same problem from a T14.

[UCalltheway]

I have a fairly large scholarship at WUSTL, and I know I would pay sticker wherever I transferred.

This is a very important consideration. If it's like 100k difference you have to really think about it. If you transfer you may underperform at OCI and strike out, whereas if you are in the top 25% at WUSTL you will have a solid chance for big law with minimal debt. I think honestly it may make more sense to transfer if you are in the 20-25% range at WUSTL because you can pay for the T14 brand name. If you end up top 10% at WUSTL I'm not really sure why you would transfer because you will have a very good chance at big law unless there is something weird about your application/personality, and if that's the case you will have the same problem from a T14.

Thanks for the advice, I'd like to think I have a normal personality so that shouldn't be an issue...hopefully

so just to clarify on the point above, you said 100k would be alot of debt (which I agree with) but you said that if I'm Top 20% it would be worth paying for. Right now I'm going to be between the top 15% (unlikely) to the top 25%, so in such a situation would it be worth it?

Also, in your opinion, what would my chances of transferring to a top10 be?

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

I have a fairly large scholarship at WUSTL, and I know I would pay sticker wherever I transferred.

This is a very important consideration. If it's like 100k difference you have to really think about it. If you transfer you may underperform at OCI and strike out, whereas if you are in the top 25% at WUSTL you will have a solid chance for big law with minimal debt. I think honestly it may make more sense to transfer if you are in the 20-25% range at WUSTL because you can pay for the T14 brand name. If you end up top 10% at WUSTL I'm not really sure why you would transfer because you will have a very good chance at big law unless there is something weird about your application/personality, and if that's the case you will have the same problem from a T14.

Thanks for the advice, I'd like to think I have a normal personality so that shouldn't be an issue...hopefully

so just to clarify on the point above, you said 100k would be alot of debt (which I agree with) but you said that if I'm Top 20% it would be worth paying for. Right now I'm going to be between the top 15% (unlikely) to the top 25%, so in such a situation would it be worth it?

Also, in your opinion, what would my chances of transferring to a top10 be?

I don't know about your chances of getting in, but I would guess they are decent at Northwestern for instance. And I'm probably one of the more debt-averse people on this forum. But if it were me I would not transfer from WUSTL with your grades: I would try and negotiate with the school to get a better scholarship.

For people who want to practice law, and want big law (at least for the short term), I'm not sure transferring from a T20 with high grades makes any sense. Almost everyone only works big law for 2-4 years, that salary really should not be the basis for making decisions on how much debt to take on. I think working with the assumption that you will make approximately 100k per year (inflation adjusted) is more realistic. This means a big law salary for a couple of years, with a possible restart somewhere around 70-75k, and then working your salary back up on the basis of experience and client development. Given this assumption a T14 at sticker does not generally make sense.

[Nebby]

Top 20% makes you competitive for UCHi. There is a fellow on this forum--I am sure he shall appear at some point--that xferred from WUSTL to UChi; he was top 15%.

Top 20% will get you into NW and likely Penn as well.

[UCalltheway]

Top 20% makes you competitive for UCHi. There is a fellow on this forum--I am sure he shall appear at some point--that xferred from WUSTL to UChi; he was top 15%.

Top 20% will get you into NW and likely Penn as well.

Do you have any idea how penn places into Chicago Biglaw?
Do you think it's financially worth the switch?

[Nebby]

Top 20% makes you competitive for UCHi. There is a fellow on this forum--I am sure he shall appear at some point--that xferred from WUSTL to UChi; he was top 15%.

Top 20% will get you into NW and likely Penn as well.

Do you have any idea how penn places into Chicago Biglaw?
Do you think it's financially worth the switch?

Penn does not place well into Chicago. UChi and NW place very well in Chicago BigLaw. I would xfer to either of those, if Chicago is your top locale.

If BigLaw is your goal, then I think it is worth the switch. Job comparison here: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... cago/penn/

[SowhatsNU]

Top 20% makes you competitive for UCHi. There is a fellow on this forum--I am sure he shall appear at some point--that xferred from WUSTL to UChi; he was top 15%.

Top 20% will get you into NW and likely Penn as well.

Do you have any idea how penn places into Chicago Biglaw?
Do you think it's financially worth the switch?

Penn does not place well into Chicago. UChi and NW place very well in Chicago BigLaw. I would xfer to either of those, if Chicago is your top locale.

If BigLaw is your goal, then I think it is worth the switch. Job comparison here: http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... cago/penn/

I was actually also really interested in this, would others mind weighing in with someone's chances of transferring? (Also looking for Chicago biglaw, also roughly top 20% at a T-20)

[Nebby]

Top 20% is possible, though you should get top 10-15% to have a better chance at CCN. Top 20% will get you into the lower T14.

Here are the compiled stats from last year's cycle: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=232983

[kcdc1]

From your position, I would not compare employment scores head-to-head. Based on your grades and likely presentable personality, you are likely to outperform WUSTL's employment statistics. Meanwhile, as a would-be transfer at a top school, you may not enjoy the full benefit of the school's prestige. If you want a direct comparison, I'd look for 2L OCI data among transfer students, and compare that to top 25% GPA data at WUSTL. I don't know whether this information is published, but the schools likely collect the info, and it would be reasonable to ask before transferring / staying put.

[SowhatsNU]

If you want a direct comparison, I'd look for 2L OCI data among transfer students, and compare that to top 25% GPA data at WUSTL. I don't know whether this information is published, but the schools likely collect the info, and it would be reasonable to ask before transferring / staying put.

Thanks for the advice and I'll definitely get on that, but I'd also imagine that a vast majority of the top 25% who got biglaw got their jobs at firms in STL which isn't my target market (ultimately), so if only half of those got biglaw jobs in chicago do you think it is still worth it?

Also on a side note, are attending receptions for firms really worth it? Don't get me wrong I'll do (almost) anything (that's still ethical) to get a biglaw job, but being a part of a semi-circle huddled around a 3rd year associate who is telling a war story doesn't exactly strike me as efficient networking...any advice? Am I totally wrong?

[kcdc1]

If you're dead-set on Chicago, transferring to NU or UChi looks more attractive. I'd ask WUSTL's career center for OCI data for Chicago offices as well as overall. Remember that there will be some degree of selection bias. A smaller number of students at WUSTL want to work in Chicago as compared to NU and UChi. I don't know your priorities or the data, but I'd guess that your chances at landing biglaw with or without transferring are probably comparable, but at the Chicago schools, you'd have a better shot to wind up in Chicago biglaw. You'd also have a more prestigious name on your degree for future career moves. But those advantages obviously come with a price tag.

I'd get as much info as you can before making a decision.

As to the networking question, I didn't do that stuff, but I think it's a good idea. It certainly could help you land a job, it doesn't cost anything, and it's a valuable skill to build for career advancement generally. My friends who were good at schmoozing crushed OCI.

[Jwood]

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[WanderingPondering]

If you want a direct comparison, I'd look for 2L OCI data among transfer students, and compare that to top 25% GPA data at WUSTL. I don't know whether this information is published, but the schools likely collect the info, and it would be reasonable to ask before transferring / staying put.

Thanks for the advice and I'll definitely get on that, but I'd also imagine that a vast majority of the top 25% who got biglaw got their jobs at firms in STL which isn't my target market (ultimately), so if only half of those got biglaw jobs in chicago do you think it is still worth it?

Also on a side note, are attending receptions for firms really worth it? Don't get me wrong I'll do (almost) anything (that's still ethical) to get a biglaw job, but being a part of a semi-circle huddled around a 3rd year associate who is telling a war story doesn't exactly strike me as efficient networking...any advice? Am I totally wrong?

Definitely, 100% untrue that a vast majority of the students going biglaw got gigs in STL. Unless you are from STL, you have basically no chance of getting a firm job there.

In reality, most got big firm jobs in NYC. Fewer got jobs in Chicago. After that, people are spread out all over. Texas has several, and then other cities from Seattle to Florida make up the rest of the firm jobs. For the class of 2016, it seems that if you were in the top third (or within a few points of the top third) you were able to get a biglaw job through either OCI or mass mailing if you wanted it. Top 20% will open up a bunch of doors and you should have options at WUSTL.

If you're Chicago or bust (which is odd that you chose to go to school in MO if that's the case) then yea I guess I'd transfer. Other than that, I wouldn't. You can PM me if you want.