T14 transfer status change thread 2012 Forum

[FlanSolo]

I think Arrow's post on transferring needs some serious revision.

I've been thinking of posting this exact sentiment in that thread. It was probably more true a few years ago when fewer people were applying. Now that so many people from each school apply, the schools aren't necessarily going to pick the #4 ranked person over #s 5 and 6, who both also applied. If they like something about #6's softs, they'll just take her.

I've personally been passed over so far this cycle for people lower-ranked than me at my school and at other schools. It's been frustrating, because I believed arrow, but I guess that's the new normal.

I think you're right. I'd also add that Arrow's guide is sort of casual about the personal statement aspect (on the assumption that numbers are paramount). Accordingly, I didn't spend too much time worrying about my personal statement, and I imagine that hurt me considerably if someone with comparable numbers was applying to the same school.

[canesfan1986]

I agree. I particularly think that undergrad performance may be taken into account much more than it might have in the past. My cycle has gone drastically worse than Arrow's algorithms would have predicted.

My UG school sucked and my GPA was about 3.4. I have a feeling that when they're looking at similarly-ranked students from similarly-ranked schools, UG is the tiebreaker. Though it's silly because I only went to me UG because I made money each semester by going there, and then I didn't really care about my GPA. I'm a completely different student now because I grew older and wiser, so it shouldn't matter. I have a feeling that it makes a huge difference. (Now, I'll wait for the anecdote that says that I'm wrong. lol. I'm sure my theory is bound to be blown to bits.)

[canesfan1986]

I think Arrow's post on transferring needs some serious revision.

I've been thinking of posting this exact sentiment in that thread. It was probably more true a few years ago when fewer people were applying. Now that so many people from each school apply, the schools aren't necessarily going to pick the #4 ranked person over #s 5 and 6, who both also applied. If they like something about #6's softs, they'll just take her.

I've personally been passed over so far this cycle for people lower-ranked than me at my school and at other schools. It's been frustrating, because I believed arrow, but I guess that's the new normal.

I think you're right. I'd also add that Arrow's guide is sort of casual about the personal statement aspect (on the assumption that numbers are paramount). Accordingly, I didn't spend too much time worrying about my personal statement, and I imagine that hurt me considerably if someone with comparable numbers was applying to the same school.

This also. My PS was BS really, but the grades and rank should speak for themselves. Honestly though, I don't get the point of writing a PS. Everyone is going to lie about how this school is their top choice and say the same old crap. If I'm an Adcomm, why would I want to read that, other than to see someone's writing quality? But, if that were what mattered, I'd just ask for writing samples from LRW classes. At least it would be relevant to whether or not that student could land a job at my OCI.

[FlanSolo]

This also. My PS was BS really, but the grades and rank should speak for themselves. Honestly though, I don't get the point of writing a PS. Everyone is going to lie about how this school is their top choice and say the same old crap. If I'm an Adcomm, why would I want to read that, other than to see someone's writing quality? But, if that were what mattered, I'd just ask for writing samples from LRW classes. At least it would be relevant to whether or not that student could land a job at my OCI.

I think they do it precisely because most people (myself included) do exactly what you just described, and some people do something different. Then, all things being equal, the pick the person who did something different.

[canesfan1986]

This also. My PS was BS really, but the grades and rank should speak for themselves. Honestly though, I don't get the point of writing a PS. Everyone is going to lie about how this school is their top choice and say the same old crap. If I'm an Adcomm, why would I want to read that, other than to see someone's writing quality? But, if that were what mattered, I'd just ask for writing samples from LRW classes. At least it would be relevant to whether or not that student could land a job at my OCI.

I think they do it precisely because most people (myself included) do exactly what you just described, and some people do something different. Then, all things being equal, the pick the person who did something different.

That's pretty arbitrary. They should just throw darts at a board. At least there they'd leave it to chance.

[pballer]

.

[canesfan1986]

This is from Columbia's site:

"Your first-year law school performance is paramount; however, the Admissions Committee does consider all other information in your file, such as your undergraduate and any other graduate transcripts, LSAT performance, letters of recommendation, and a statement regarding why you are seeking transfer crap that doesn't matter anymore."

I fixed it.

[FlanSolo]

This also. My PS was BS really, but the grades and rank should speak for themselves. Honestly though, I don't get the point of writing a PS. Everyone is going to lie about how this school is their top choice and say the same old crap. If I'm an Adcomm, why would I want to read that, other than to see someone's writing quality? But, if that were what mattered, I'd just ask for writing samples from LRW classes. At least it would be relevant to whether or not that student could land a job at my OCI.

I think they do it precisely because most people (myself included) do exactly what you just described, and some people do something different. Then, all things being equal things not necessarily being remotely equal, the pick the person who did something different.

FTFY

Fair enough. You haven't heard from H yet have you?

[TatteredDignity]

Putting any weight at all on UGPA would certainly account for my underperformance. I just hoped it was true that schools largely don't do this. Ah, well.

[pballer]

.

[FlanSolo]

Putting any weight at all on UGPA would certainly account for my underperformance. I just hoped it was true that schools largely don't do this. Ah, well.

Maybe. It would be an alternative explanation for why H seemed to show so much love to the T14. That is, you weren't likely to get T14 in the first place without at least a very good LSAT or UGPA. By contrast, even though my T20's median LSAT is a point lower than Cornell's, my T20 definitely lets some kids in whose applications would be laughed out of the room at a T14. If these are some of the kids who are also having bad luck (even if they kicked ass 1L) it would explain a lot.

[jjkhicks]

Final update: T2 80s 4/13$ applied to mich, Penn, GULC, Cornell. Rejected from mich and penn, and no response (aka ding) from other two. Future students, if your from a low t2 and not #1, start thinking of shit to invent or go feed ppl in Cambodia or solve the Palestine/Israel shit if you wanna have a shot.

Edit: also, unless u can right your brief in rhyming couplets, go to a school that doesn't grade LRW. (end of rant)

I'm #1 and I wish I had fed the poor, taught English in Laos, or cured cancer. That whole "we only care about school and class rank" is crap. Plenty of people from lower-ranked schools were admitted to the schools I applied. I think Arrow's post on transferring needs some serious revision.

I agree- it all seems a little arbitrary. I am number one at a school in the 50's, had work experience before law school, and 3 different legal jobs since I started. I got a ding the first day Columbia sent them out. Such a frustrating process. Congrats to everyone that got in though!

[TatteredDignity]

Putting any weight at all on UGPA would certainly account for my underperformance. I just hoped it was true that schools largely don't do this. Ah, well.

Maybe. It would be an alternative explanation for why H seemed to show so much love to the T14. That is, you weren't likely to get T14 in the first place without at least a very good LSAT or UGPA. By contrast, even though my T20's median LSAT is a point lower than Cornell's, my T20 definitely lets some kids in whose applications would be laughed out of the room at a T14. If these are some of the kids who are also having bad luck (even if they kicked ass 1L) it would explain a lot.

Maybe. My LSAT would have put me in at H, but my gpa may not have got me in at Cooley. So I'm weird. Wish they would factor in LSAT of they're gonna look at UGPA.

Also, just remembered that someone at my school who got H and is ranked lower than I am was a reverse splitter. So maybe that's it, after all.

[canesfan1986]

Putting any weight at all on UGPA would certainly account for my underperformance. I just hoped it was true that schools largely don't do this. Ah, well.

Maybe. It would be an alternative explanation for why H seemed to show so much love to the T14. That is, you weren't likely to get T14 in the first place without at least a very good LSAT or UGPA. By contrast, even though my T20's median LSAT is a point lower than Cornell's, my T20 definitely lets some kids in whose applications would be laughed out of the room at a T14. If these are some of the kids who are also having bad luck (even if they kicked ass 1L) it would explain a lot.

Maybe. My LSAT would have put me in at H, but my gpa may not have got me in at Cooley. So I'm weird. Wish they would factor in LSAT of they're gonna look at UGPA.

Also, just remembered that someone at my school who got H and is ranked lower than I am was a reverse splitter. So maybe that's it, after all.

Well, duh, your UG performance always affects your LS performance....wait....what?

[FlanSolo]

Maybe. My LSAT would have put me in at H, but my gpa may not have got me in at Cooley. So I'm weird. Wish they would factor in LSAT of they're gonna look at UGPA.

Also, just remembered that someone at my school who got H and is ranked lower than I am was a reverse splitter. So maybe that's it, after all.

Hmm. I just don't know if - at least using the information we have - there is really much of a discernible pattern. I really just don't know why a school would care about a transfer's UGPA. The LSAT and UGPA matter only to the extent they predict first year performance, and UGPA is considered to be lest valuable indicator. So when an applicant actually has a law school track record, I don't know what on earth UGPA could possibly tell them, other than that the applicant either lacked maturity in college, or was in a curved major. I suppose they may think that they want graduates who are generally good "ambassadors" for the school or something though? Who the hell knows.

[TatteredDignity]

Who the hell knows.

[heeloftar]

The only way a transfer can affect a school's USNWR ranking is through its employment stats, right? Thus, I'm guessing if they think that employers in their region won't look too kindly at a transfer from East West Montana State, they probably won't admit him since it will be an uphill battle to get him a job. That would explain why Chicago/Northwestern lets in some TT/TTTs from Chicago schools, but few without ties, and why Columbia/NYU let in some TT/TTTs from New York schools, but few without ties.

[canesfan1986]

The only way a transfer can affect a school's USNWR ranking is through its employment stats, right? Thus, I'm guessing if they think that employers in their region won't look too kindly at a transfer from East West Montana State, they probably won't admit him since it will be an uphill battle to get him a job. That would explain why Chicago/Northwestern lets in some TT/TTTs from Chicago schools, but few without ties, and why Columbia/NYU let in some TT/TTTs from New York schools, but few without ties.

Does one really need ties to NYC? It's not like an employer would wonder, "hmmm...why does he want to live in NYC?" It's NYC! I think that logic applies to other cities, but it shouldn't in NY.

[InSport]

I doubt that UGPA is taken into account when applying to transfer, though I do agree that the personal statement is important. I had a 2.8 UGPA, but I managed to get into GULC and NYU so far (no news from Columbia yet), and I'm coming from a T80. Aside from doing very well at my 1L school, I probably put about 12-15 hours into my personal statement for my transfer application, and I am certain it helped make the difference. It also probably helped significantly that I talked about my public interest background in my personal statement, which is likely not as common of a theme.

[canesfan1986]

I also forgot to add that schools don't give a crap if you apply early or late. I think that has proven true consistently this cycle.

[TatteredDignity]

I also forgot to add that schools don't give a crapif you apply early or late. I think that has proven true consistently this cycle.

[mileslibertatis]

A few notes for your consideration. I definitely agree there's something going on. I know someone from a similarly ranked school who was not #1 (like I am) who decided to transfer after getting the idea from me, and he got in to Harvard like it was the most natural thing in the world. Also, <insert witty name> got in to two of HYS and by the numbers isn't as good, but obviously had something to make her better.

Also, my undergrad GPA was 3.02 (good state school) and my LSAT was 168. I got rejected from every T20 school when I first applied. This cycle I got in to Penn and NYU.

Finally, of the admitted transfer students at Penn Law, I've noticed a silly number of Ivy League undergrad credentials. This can't be an accident.

[forestgirl]

I did much better this cycle than I expected to, and I think it was because of softs-- especially softs during 1L year.

Weaknesses: Little-known undergrad which recently dove in the rankings, so-so LSAT, 1L school in the 30s which ALSO took a dive this year, significant drop in grades from 1st to 2nd semester of 1L (3.9 to 3.6, average 3.74), applied late in the cycle because I was waiting for transcripts. Then I misunderstood NYU's instructions and had to rush transcripts to get them there for the 15th.

Strengths: Good UGPA and honors thesis, Teach for America WE, low socioeconomic status (wrote supplemental diversity essay), good PS, won 1st place in my 1L moot court tournament, community service during 1L, LR, good LORs.

Stats again: 1L school around #30, rank 13/2xx, 3.74, LR, moot court. UGPA 3.8, LSAT 165
Accepted at Columbia, NYU, Penn. Presumptive dings (waiting) from H/Y.

I think we've seen that timing within the admissions cycle really doesn't matter much. My applications moved very quickly once received, whereas others who got apps in quickly had to wait longer. I think that softs turned out to matter a lot, and I agree it's probably because of the larger applicant pool. People ranked next to each other might not differ in the numbers, but someone who's done something interesting will stand out. Then again, TFA is so common now, I don't know how much it made me stand out at all.

With that said, H took two people ranked only slightly above me from my school, and I'm not aware of any unique work experience or other softs working in their favor. So, the bottom line is.... who knows.

[ClarDarr]

I did much better this cycle than I expected to, and I think it was because of softs-- especially softs during 1L year.

Weaknesses: Little-known undergrad which recently dove in the rankings, so-so LSAT, 1L school in the 30s which ALSO took a dive this year, significant drop in grades from 1st to 2nd semester of 1L (3.9 to 3.6, average 3.74), applied late in the cycle because I was waiting for transcripts. Then I misunderstood NYU's instructions and had to rush transcripts to get them there for the 15th.

Strengths: Good UGPA and honors thesis, Teach for America WE, low socioeconomic status (wrote supplemental diversity essay), good PS, won 1st place in my 1L moot court tournament, community service during 1L, LR, good LORs.

Stats again: 1L school around #30, rank 13/2xx, 3.74, LR, moot court. UGPA 3.8, LSAT 165
Accepted at Columbia, NYU, Penn. Presumptive dings (waiting) from H/Y.

I think we've seen that timing within the admissions cycle really doesn't matter much. My applications moved very quickly once received, whereas others who got apps in quickly had to wait longer. I think that softs turned out to matter a lot, and I agree it's probably because of the larger applicant pool. People ranked next to each other might not differ in the numbers, but someone who's done something interesting will stand out. Then again, TFA is so common now, I don't know how much it made me stand out at all.

With that said, H took two people ranked only slightly above me from my school, and I'm not aware of any unique work experience or other softs working in their favor. So, the bottom line is.... who knows.

I agree with a lot of this. As a Class of 2013 transfer, the one soft I would say that schools seem to put a lot of weight on is what you did after your 1L year. I very much overperformed (3/3 admissions to Columbia, NYU and Penn with a mid T2 top 2% ranking); in my mind it was due to my strong UGPA and a very, very strong 1L work experience.

[mileslibertatis]

Waiting

Chicago: Complete 6/22, Under Review 6/26, Under Review (date changed) 6/29, Under Review (date changed) 7/12; probably will choose Penn over Chicago as well

Decision Rendered
Georgetown: Waitlisted 6/27; withdrew
Columbia: Complete 6/27; withdrawing in favor of Penn
Harvard: "processing" "ready for review" 6/22; rejected (email) 7/24
Yale: submitted paper, school requested report 6/27; app received email 7/9; acceptances sent out 7/23, presumptive ding rejected (email) 7/25
Stanford: File incomplete 5/23, complete 6/29; acceptances sent out, presumptive ding
UVA: Complete date unknown; Rejected 7/12 (email)
NYU: UR 7/3, UR 7/12, "Tuition Deposit Received" under requirements 7/12, Decision Letter Sent 7/13 (actually updated to this on 7/12), access to admitted students page 7/12, acceptance package received UPS 7/14; WITHDREW 7/20 (prefer Penn for location and family reasons)
Penn: Under Committee Review 6/28, accepted (phone call) 7/17; ATTENDING