Caveat Emptor

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Paul Campos
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Caveat Emptor

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:22 pm

The following is from an Ivy League 3L:

Transfer admissions are actually quite lax because transfer stats aren't reportable to LSAC/US News. This scam works as follows: (1) admit anyone who won't embarrass us; (2) charge full freight; (3) hang them out to dry at OCI and cash the checks.

I speak from experience. I went to a third tier law school on scholarship (mediocre UG grades, 17x LSAT), barely finished top 20% as a 1L, then transferred to Columbia (which I chose over NYU and your alma mater [Michigan]).

So there's actually a 20% chance you can transfer to Georgetown (or Columbia), but you'll be at the bottom of the pack once you get there, which means you'll pack on six figures of debt and graduate without a real job.

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20130312
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:27 pm

Who says you'll be at the bottom of the pack? Grades are notoriously difficult to predict. It isn't just that you go from a third tier to a T6 and oh, now you're at the bottom.

Unless you mean the bottom of the pack for employers, which I would dispute because transferring shows initiative and that you were at the top of your class at your previous school.

Also, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

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chup
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby chup » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:29 pm

I seem to remember the Columbia OCI thread being a shit show last fall specifically because everyone got it in their head that CLS had admitted a bunch of transfers were now taking their jerbs. Also anecdotally, the transfers I know at SLS were top-notch, and most of them cleaned up at OCI.

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koalatriste
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby koalatriste » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:01 pm

transfers did swimmingly at NYU's OCI. everyone who wanted something got it and just about everyone had multiple V10 callbacks.

this thread is a flame. also, not all ivy league law schools are necessary elite.

keg411
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby keg411 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:14 pm

koalatriste wrote:transfers did swimmingly at NYU's OCI. everyone who wanted something got it and just about everyone had multiple V10 callbacks.

this thread is a flame. also, not all ivy league law schools are necessary elite.


Plenty of transfers have jobs at Michigan too (including V10's). This thread is both crap and wrong.

Whatever "Ivy League 3L" sent you that e-mail is lying because no top 20% TTT person is getting into CLS, no matter what their LSAT/GPA was.

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Wholigan
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Wholigan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:41 pm

You can add Penn to what has already been said of NYU, SLS, Columbia, and Michigan. Every transfer who wanted a firm job got one, with many V10 and V5 offers. And there were no transfers in this year's class OR last year's class from any TTT/TTTT, let alone only top 20%.

concurrent fork
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby concurrent fork » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:48 pm

If you scored a 170+ LSAT and decided to attend a TTT I think your prelaw advisor was the one that scammed you.

Incubateus
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Incubateus » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:51 pm

How do schools place a transfer student with respect to the overall class rank and gpa?

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omninode
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby omninode » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:54 pm

concurrent fork wrote:If you scored a 170+ LSAT and decided to attend a TTT I think your prelaw advisor was the one that scammed you.



Seriously. Sounds like this mysterious 3L is kind of a dunce, no wonder he bombed at OCI.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Transferthrowaway » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:54 pm

You sound disgruntled.

In terms of jobs, transfers at my CCN who wanted firm jobs got them (with many V5-V10 offers). In terms of grades, many transfers I know have continued getting top grades.

mrloblaw
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby mrloblaw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:08 pm

OP overstates his case by a wide margin. However, transferring isn't quite the career boon that most people around here paint it as. I don't know many people in my transfer class (T2/T3 top 1% kids, T14 top 10% kids, etc.) who couldn't easily have secured firm jobs without the transfer.

Transferring gives you a few screeners that you could not have obtained via mass mailing. As far as I can tell, that's all you get. Granted, those screeners may be with v10 firms that completely refuse to screen kids from your old school who are now forced to screen you through their agreements with elite schools. If you're hellbent on such a firm, it's a respectable benefit.

keg411
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby keg411 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:47 am

mrloblaw wrote:OP overstates his case by a wide margin. However, transferring isn't quite the career boon that most people around here paint it as. I don't know many people in my transfer class (T2/T3 top 1% kids, T14 top 10% kids, etc.) who couldn't easily have secured firm jobs without the transfer.

Transferring gives you a few screeners that you could not have obtained via mass mailing. As far as I can tell, that's all you get. Granted, those screeners may be with v10 firms that completely refuse to screen kids from your old school who are now forced to screen you through their agreements with elite schools. If you're hellbent on such a firm, it's a respectable benefit.


I kind of agree, but that's not really what the OP is saying at all. He's just saying "if your transfer you will get shut out of OCI and end up below median because schools just want to take your money". Which I strongly disagree with.

I'd say most people who transfer probably do it for the jump in prestige, since your school will be on your resume forever.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:52 am

Question: what evidence did this person provide to back up their claim of who they are and what their situation is?

Transferthrowaway
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Transferthrowaway » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:53 am

keg411 wrote:I'd say most people who transfer probably do it for the jump in prestige, since your school will be on your resume forever.


I did it for the weather.

keg411
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby keg411 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:54 am

Transferthrowaway wrote:
keg411 wrote:I'd say most people who transfer probably do it for the jump in prestige, since your school will be on your resume forever.


I did it for the weather.


I'm jealous :lol:.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Transferthrowaway » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:03 am

keg411 wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
keg411 wrote:I'd say most people who transfer probably do it for the jump in prestige, since your school will be on your resume forever.


I did it for the weather.


I'm jealous :lol:.


I'm kidding. As far as I can recall, we both moved from warmer climates to shitty weather.

keg411
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby keg411 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:17 am

Transferthrowaway wrote:
keg411 wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
keg411 wrote:I'd say most people who transfer probably do it for the jump in prestige, since your school will be on your resume forever.


I did it for the weather.


I'm jealous :lol:.


I'm kidding. As far as I can recall, we both moved from warmer climates to shitty weather.


I actually moved from shitty weather to shitty weather....

mrloblaw
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:23 pm

keg411 wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:OP overstates his case by a wide margin. However, transferring isn't quite the career boon that most people around here paint it as. I don't know many people in my transfer class (T2/T3 top 1% kids, T14 top 10% kids, etc.) who couldn't easily have secured firm jobs without the transfer.

Transferring gives you a few screeners that you could not have obtained via mass mailing. As far as I can tell, that's all you get. Granted, those screeners may be with v10 firms that completely refuse to screen kids from your old school who are now forced to screen you through their agreements with elite schools. If you're hellbent on such a firm, it's a respectable benefit.


I kind of agree, but that's not really what the OP is saying at all. He's just saying "if your transfer you will get shut out of OCI and end up below median because schools just want to take your money". Which I strongly disagree with.

I'd say most people who transfer probably do it for the jump in prestige, since your school will be on your resume forever.


Quite true. I'm also not sure where the 'scam' thing comes in. The process basically goes:

Me: Dear T6, I would like to give you $50k a year tuition. Will you please, please, please let me?
T6: Sure, and here's a free XXXXXXL t-shirt to commemorate your acceptance.
Me: Whee!

How was I sold anything under false pretenses?

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20130312
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby 20130312 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:05 pm

According to post history (see: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173712&p=5023562), OP is actually Paul Campos.

In August 2011, Campos began a blog, Inside the Law School Scam. Initially posting anonymously, he critiqued the current law education system in a manner reminiscent of in Against the Law. Knowing that his identity was soon to be outed, he claimed responsibility for the blog on August 20. Campos admitted that he wrote a second, anonymous blog, titled Inside the Law School Scam, in which he was harshly critical of the value proposition of a law school education. The blog has attracted criticism from other legal scholars, including Brian Leiter.

keg411
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby keg411 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:57 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:According to post history (see: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... &p=5023562), OP is actually Paul Campos.

In August 2011, Campos began a blog, Inside the Law School Scam. Initially posting anonymously, he critiqued the current law education system in a manner reminiscent of in Against the Law. Knowing that his identity was soon to be outed, he claimed responsibility for the blog on August 20. Campos admitted that he wrote a second, anonymous blog, titled Inside the Law School Scam, in which he was harshly critical of the value proposition of a law school education. The blog has attracted criticism from other legal scholars, including Brian Leiter.


Most of us know who Campos is, and I generally support what he's doing. But making up stuff or just listening to what some random lying 3L (because there is ZERO chance a TTT top 20% person gets into those schools) and then posting it on here makes him look bad and like no clue what he's talking about.

Are there downsides to transferring? Yes. Here they are:
1) If you have a scholarship and are borderline for BigLaw anyway, if you fail to get it you could get debt-pwned. There are always transfers who struggle (I struggled significantly during Fall Recruiting but got lucky), so this can be scary
2) You are leaving your friends and a comfortable situation for a new place; and the FIRST thing you have to go through is Fall Recruiting which is probably the most stressful part of law school since it will determine #1.
3) You are never going to have the same relationship with your new classmates than you did with your 1L classmates, and it can be difficult to replicate things that made you successful previously (for example, I had an awesome group last year that were not only my friends, but we all studied very well together and I attribute some of my 1L success to that awesome-ness)
4) You will lose your pretty GPA. This just makes me :(.

mighttransfer
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby mighttransfer » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:11 pm

Several things wrong with OP's contentions.

First (as Keg pointed out), CLS would not accept a student at a TTT school in the top 20% as a transfer. Transfer admissions is extremely competitive (and I know this from first-hand experience).

Second, OP asserted that "[t]ransfer admissions are actually quite lax because transfer stats aren't reportable to LSAC/US News" and that schools accept anyone who won't embarrass the school. But this is horribly untrue. While transfer stats might not be reportable, schools nonetheless have an enormous incentive to admit only qualified candidates. Among many other reasons, for example, whether or not transfer students are employed at graduation (and 9 months out) directly affects a school's ranking.

Paul Campos
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Paul Campos » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:03 pm

I'm not claiming my correspondent's experience is typical, although I would be surprised if he's mischaracterizing his own experience. It's just a data point. However T-6 schools aren't immune from engaging in very questionable financially-driven practices. (See ATL's post today about NYU's tax LLM, which is supposedly so valuable. A poster claims that per NYU's alumni data base 10% of the 2011 LLM grads have jobs).

Transferthrowaway
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby Transferthrowaway » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:11 pm

Paul Campos wrote:I'm not claiming my correspondent's experience is typical, although I would be surprised if he's mischaracterizing his own experience. It's just a data point. However T-6 schools aren't immune from engaging in very questionable financially-driven practices. (See ATL's post today about NYU's tax LLM, which is supposedly so valuable. A poster claims that per NYU's alumni data base 10% of the 2011 LLM grads have jobs).

If you read the posts of any of the dozen or so transfers who regularly post on this board or the most recent transfer cycle thread from this summer, you'll see people who are in the top 5 and 10% of their class getting shut out of the T6. I would appreciate you adding those data points to your information so that this dubious (at best) outlier is shown for what it is.

keg411
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby keg411 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Paul Campos wrote:I'm not claiming my correspondent's experience is typical, although I would be surprised if he's mischaracterizing his own experience. It's just a data point. However T-6 schools aren't immune from engaging in very questionable financially-driven practices. (See ATL's post today about NYU's tax LLM, which is supposedly so valuable. A poster claims that per NYU's alumni data base 10% of the 2011 LLM grads have jobs).


Transferring has absolute nothing to do with LLM's. Just that the person you got that information from is likely a liar based on a far larger sample size. No one is disputing that law schools don't do financially dubious things; just that highly ranked schools are pretty damn selective in terms of who they take as transfer students.

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johansantana21
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Re: Caveat Emptor

Postby johansantana21 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:36 pm

Seems like transfers have it better than people who didn't transfer but could have from all these "EVERY TRANSFER I KNOW GOT MULTIPLE V10 OFFERS" posts.




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