Transfer: employment disadvantage?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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magicman554
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Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby magicman554 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:05 am

Does transferring hurt employment chances? I ask because law firms pay close attention to 1L grades. For example, let's say you manage to transfer from a good T1 to CCN or HYS. Let's say you graduate top 20%. Are you at a disadvantage relative to other top 20% students from your new school?

Anecdotes would be better than speculation.

*EDIT: How do 1L grades from the previous school affect your overall standing?

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dood
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby dood » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:51 am

in ur hypo, no, based on anecdotal shit

concurrent fork
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:42 pm

The majority of transfers into HYSCCN will get jobs through 2L OCI, so it is unlikely that grades from the new school will even play a role in the job search. Check the transfer employment thread if you want to get an idea of how transfers from T1 schools fared (generally very well).

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=132670

magicman554 wrote:How do 1L grades from the previous school affect your overall standing?

None. They typically just appear as credits on your transcript, and rank is determined by 2L and 3L grades. You are also eligible for latin honors based solely on 2L and 3L grades (although some schools might have a different policy on this).

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megaTTTron
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby megaTTTron » Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:48 pm

Hard to tell. In my situation, I don't feel like I was disadvantaged. But I have to believe someone with my grades at my transfer school has an edge, if all other variables are equal.

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magicman554
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby magicman554 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:18 pm

What about any OCI transfer disadvantages? How do recruiters react to and judge transfers?

t14underground
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby t14underground » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:09 am

magicman554 wrote:What about any OCI transfer disadvantages?


Here's my other thread re: this topic and my job search:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=109486

I guess I should mention I'm part of the c/o 2011, and it does sound like there were improvements this last fall. Things will probably continue to get better by next fall as well.

magicman554 wrote:How do recruiters react to and judge transfers?


Based on some discussions I had with a few hiring partners at v10 firms this year, they look at you the same as if you had not transferred. That means if the firm would not have hired you had you not transferred, then you have a real uphill battle. However, the one thing that you gain from transferring is that you get screening interviews with firms that you might not have otherwise gotten (because employers aren't allowed to prescreen applicants at most t14s).

In your situation, if you kick enough ass at a solid t1 to be able to transfer to CCN or HYS, and are targetting the same market your t1 is in, then you should be fine. (Different markets are more of a crapshoot because those firms don't typically recruit people from your old school, so they will have a tougher time figuring out how to evaluate you relative to students at your new school.)

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magicman554
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby magicman554 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:54 am

t14underground wrote:Based on some discussions I had with a few hiring partners at v10 firms this year, they look at you the same as if you had not transferred. That means if the firm would not have hired you had you not transferred, then you have a real uphill battle. However, the one thing that you gain from transferring is that you get screening interviews with firms that you might not have otherwise gotten (because employers aren't allowed to prescreen applicants at most t14s).

In your situation, if you kick enough ass at a solid t1 to be able to transfer to CCN or HYS, and are targetting the same market your t1 is in, then you should be fine. (Different markets are more of a crapshoot because those firms don't typically recruit people from your old school, so they will have a tougher time figuring out how to evaluate you relative to students at your new school.)



So, it does matter where you transferred from? For example, if there were two different transfers into HYS, one coming from a T25 and the other from a Tier 3, both top 1-5% at their old school, the one from the T25 would have a much stronger position?

Thanks, by the way.

solidsnake
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby solidsnake » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:11 pm

magicman554 wrote:
t14underground wrote:Based on some discussions I had with a few hiring partners at v10 firms this year, they look at you the same as if you had not transferred. That means if the firm would not have hired you had you not transferred, then you have a real uphill battle. However, the one thing that you gain from transferring is that you get screening interviews with firms that you might not have otherwise gotten (because employers aren't allowed to prescreen applicants at most t14s).

In your situation, if you kick enough ass at a solid t1 to be able to transfer to CCN or HYS, and are targetting the same market your t1 is in, then you should be fine. (Different markets are more of a crapshoot because those firms don't typically recruit people from your old school, so they will have a tougher time figuring out how to evaluate you relative to students at your new school.)



So, it does matter where you transferred from? For example, if there were two different transfers into HYS, one coming from a T25 and the other from a Tier 3, both top 1-5% at their old school, the one from the T25 would have a much stronger position?

Thanks, by the way.


seriously, use common sense, OP. you can't be this dumb and expect to do well enough to transfer.

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magicman554
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby magicman554 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:24 pm

solidsnake wrote:
magicman554 wrote:
t14underground wrote:Based on some discussions I had with a few hiring partners at v10 firms this year, they look at you the same as if you had not transferred. That means if the firm would not have hired you had you not transferred, then you have a real uphill battle. However, the one thing that you gain from transferring is that you get screening interviews with firms that you might not have otherwise gotten (because employers aren't allowed to prescreen applicants at most t14s).

In your situation, if you kick enough ass at a solid t1 to be able to transfer to CCN or HYS, and are targetting the same market your t1 is in, then you should be fine. (Different markets are more of a crapshoot because those firms don't typically recruit people from your old school, so they will have a tougher time figuring out how to evaluate you relative to students at your new school.)



So, it does matter where you transferred from? For example, if there were two different transfers into HYS, one coming from a T25 and the other from a Tier 3, both top 1-5% at their old school, the one from the T25 would have a much stronger position?

Thanks, by the way.


seriously, use common sense, OP. you can't be this dumb and expect to do well enough to transfer.



It's not about common sense. I don't know how firms view any of this. I mean, presumably, if HYS thought you were good enough to go to their school, whether from a T14 or a T2 or T3, then why wouldn't that factor into the situation? I mean, in reality, you could have two people who are equally intelligent and skilled, one went to a T14 and was top 1%, the other went to a T3 because he/she wanted the full ride and was also top 1%. Both transfer into HYS. What I want to know is if the latter is at a disadvantage compared to the former, which everyone here but you is helping to clarify. I don't like to just assume that everything is going to follow logically from my own perception of the job market.

t14underground
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby t14underground » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:35 am

For biglaw, IMO, you are better off being top 10% at a t25, getting really lucky and getting the opportunity to transfer to HYS, versus being top 1% at a t3, getting really lucky and getting the opportunity to transfer to HYS. The reason is because large firms still hire some students from the very top of t25s, whereas, large firm hiring at t3s is virtually nonexistent. Seeing as how firms look at you the same as if you had not transferred during OCI, top 10% at the t25 means you got a shot at biglaw, whereas top 1% at the t3 mean you probably don’t, unless you get really lucky again. Although, this is probably a bad example since either of the canidates in my hypo probably have some other really exceptional things going for them that got them into HYS, which might also get them biglaw.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:52 am

t14underground wrote:Seeing as how firms look at you the same as if you had not transferred during OCI

This statement is occasionally true but mostly wrong.

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patrickd139
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:59 am

vanwinkle wrote:
t14underground wrote:Seeing as how firms look at you the same as if you had not transferred during OCI

This statement is occasionally true but mostly wrong.

+1. The three rules of transferring: 1) Access, 2) Access, 3) Access

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2Serious4Numbers
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby 2Serious4Numbers » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:16 am

I would not sweat this too much, if you got the grades you should be good and they won't care

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magicman554
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby magicman554 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:45 am

What about offers from companies, or anything other than law firms? Anyone with any experience with this? How does the whole transfer thing fit into that equation?

zcc2012
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby zcc2012 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:23 am

Here's my experience going from a T30 to CCN:

magicman554 wrote:How do recruiters react to and judge transfers?


Every interview started with, "So, why did you transfer?" The vast majority of interviewers were cool about it, a few were a little weird, and one was openly hostile (basically said that the students at CCN are much smarter than me, and that I wouldn't fare well competing with them).

t14underground wrote: In your situation, if you kick enough ass at a solid t1 to be able to transfer to CCN or HYS, and are targetting the same market your t1 is in, then you should be fine. (Different markets are more of a crapshoot because those firms don't typically recruit people from your old school, so they will have a tougher time figuring out how to evaluate you relative to students at your new school.)
.

I ran into serious problems with this. My resume/education SCREAMS a certain state far away from my CCN. Students from my T30 never leave that state, so recruiters had no idea how to look at my grades. The firm that hired me randomly had someone from my T30 on the hiring committee who could explain my grades to the group.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:25 pm

magicman554 wrote:I don't know how firms view any of this. I mean, presumably, if HYS thought you were good enough to go to their school, whether from a T14 or a T2 or T3, then why wouldn't that factor into the situation? I mean, in reality, you could have two people who are equally intelligent and skilled, one went to a T14 and was top 1%, the other went to a T3 because he/she wanted the full ride and was also top 1%. Both transfer into HYS. What I want to know is if the latter is at a disadvantage compared to the former, which everyone here but you is helping to clarify. I don't like to just assume that everything is going to follow logically from my own perception of the job market.

Not just assuming things is good.

I did neither but have spoken with enough transfers to pick up anecdotes and get ideas of how things work. Firms that judge you for being from a lesser school might not want you even if you went to a T14 originally; their attitude would be something like "We only interview at (HYS/T6) so we wouldn't have interviewed someone with your grades at your school." But most firms will likely not hold it against you, because after all, you're at this school now and will have that degree when you graduate.

At the HYS level, being accepted as a transfer is a badge of success in itself; many firms recognize that getting in as a transfer means you really earned it and were chosen for a reason. I don't know any transfers at H who didn't do well at OCI overall, the T14 and lower T1 and upper T2 transfers all had success stories.

That said, it's much much harder to get into HYS from a T3, even with top 1% grades. Y is extremely picky (from T14 I made H but not Y; the only person to make Y from my school had graded onto LR) and even at H, nearly all of the transfers are T1/T2 kids. Off the top of my head I can only think of a number of T1 (mostly T30 even) folks and a few upper T2 kids, and that's it.

That said, I think being top 10% at T25 would be much better for other reasons. It's better not because your odds of transferring to HYS might be better, but because you're likely in a better employment position if you can't transfer up. Of course, if the money makes the T3 make sense for you, then you can go there to graduate debt-free... but you'd better be happy with the idea you'll likely graduate from there before you go. Always always go to a school you'd be happy graduating from.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:44 pm

Semi-off topic, but...

Where would you have to finish in your class to transfer to H assuming you attended a t14 for 1L (and I mean have a pretty solid chance)? I have seen people say top 20%, top 10%, top 5%, etc.

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megaTTTron
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby megaTTTron » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:25 pm

zcc2012 wrote:Here's my experience going from a T30 to CCN:

magicman554 wrote:How do recruiters react to and judge transfers?


Every interview started with, "So, why did you transfer?" The vast majority of interviewers were cool about it, a few were a little weird, and one was openly hostile (basically said that the students at CCN are much smarter than me, and that I wouldn't fare well competing with them).

t14underground wrote: In your situation, if you kick enough ass at a solid t1 to be able to transfer to CCN or HYS, and are targetting the same market your t1 is in, then you should be fine. (Different markets are more of a crapshoot because those firms don't typically recruit people from your old school, so they will have a tougher time figuring out how to evaluate you relative to students at your new school.)
.

I ran into serious problems with this. My resume/education SCREAMS a certain state far away from my CCN. Students from my T30 never leave that state, so recruiters had no idea how to look at my grades. The firm that hired me randomly had someone from my T30 on the hiring committee who could explain my grades to the group.


Thanks for responding to my facebook message. Jerk.

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magicman554
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby magicman554 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:13 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:Semi-off topic, but...

Where would you have to finish in your class to transfer to H assuming you attended a t14 for 1L (and I mean have a pretty solid chance)? I have seen people say top 20%, top 10%, top 5%, etc.



A "solid chance" is pretty remote when discussing HYS, even H which seems to admit more transfers and 1Ls than YS. Play it safe, be #1.

But don't stop praying.

t14underground
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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby t14underground » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:56 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
t14underground wrote:Seeing as how firms look at you the same as if you had not transferred during OCI

This statement is occasionally true but mostly wrong.


That's what the career services office at my current school told me when I asked them about it prior to 2L OCI, and to bid accordingly.

I also had a few drinks with a couple partners from v10 firms (one being a hiring partner and the other being the head of recruiting for the department I was talking to him about) this year, and that's what both of them told me. I also had an email from a recruiting coordinator when I applied to a firm early last spring (after grades came out), and she essentially told me the same thing as well.

If you some hard data or anecdotes based on personal discussions with actual recruiters at law firms, I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.

I saw your post below the one I quoted, and in all reality HYS are in a league of their own, and perhaps all transfers there do well (simply because employers think that based on the fact that the person was able to get in as a transfer, they deserve a job – i.e. the “badge of success” and “were chosen for a reason”). I’m not sure if the same is true for CCN, but it certainly isn’t for the t14 generally.

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Re: Transfer: employment disadvantage?

Postby UCLAtransfer » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:58 pm

I almost always agree 100% with what vanwinkle has to say re transferring, but my experience is much more in line with what t14 said above. It seems like HYS transfers may be in a category of their own in this regard.

Anecdotally, my fellow transfers from schools in the same region (Loyola LA, Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara) generally seemed to get more OCI love than those of us from schools outside the region (despite in some cases coming from a "higher-ranked" ls with stronger grades). Obviously a lot of other things could factor into this, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the transfers from the schools within the region could have had at least an outside shot at landing gigs at these OCI firms pre-transfer, whereas those of us coming from schools outside the region generally would not have had the same chance.




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