This thread is for 1Ls who kicked butt on first semester exams.

A big question most likely going through your mind is - should I transfer? You could stay and own what's left of OCI, or transfer to a T14 and start over. I know that there are respected proponents on each side: Stay (OperaSoprano) v. Go (Arrow).

This thread is for us to discuss the pros and cons, or any other components that would be relevant for us to make a decision.

For anyone even considering transferring PLEASE read this amazing post by Arrow: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=82937

For some the move could be motivated by region.
Others may be motivated by a particular program.
And some who straight 4.0'd may wish to live the HYS dream.

Another HUGE aspect is $$$. Many of us (although not I) are receiving phatty scholarships from our present institutions. Some schools (again, sadly not mine) offer 2L scholarships based on 1L performance, as well.

At this point I'm not sure what I'll do, I love my T30, but there is no denying the opportunity a T14 presents.

What does everyone think?

I think another good discussion point is Chicago ED, and that's a decision I'm faced with right now.

I finished top 3 % at my mid-level T2, and I'm thinking of throwing an app at Chicago ED. I don't think I'll get in at first pass, but I think it will set me up well for regular decision.

However, my fear is that I do get in and either a) bomb exams somehow, getting myself out of Chicago and having to sacrifice (if I get in) a GULC EA acceptance or b) decide I really want to stay.

Thoughts? What are my odds at GULC EA vs. Chicago ED?

You love Arrow don't you? You want to marry him don't ya? JK Congrats on your grades...and your post about success in LS the other day was great. Got me motivated to start my 0L prep now.

Should you transfer? I say yes. The consensus seems to be that once you figure out one semester of law school tests you can figure out all of them. T-14 it away. Especially if you can crack the T6!

As a 0L I probably shouldn't post on this topic, but in the employment forum I've seen some c/o 2011 people say they transferred to MVPB and completely struck out at OCI this year.

I agree 100% with all of that.

I think GULC is your best bet. (1) because your grades are STELLAR, and (2) because they accept a huge number of transfers.

W/ respect to Chi, why not? Worst case your grades go down a little. Even if they do, you still would have plenty of time to apply to other t14s.

I say go for both, apper.



Haha. It must seem that way. Seriously, I look up to him a lot, and I wouldn't float his advice around so much if I didn't stand behind it. He's put a lot of time into TLS and those articles - read em!

+1 to this as well. It largely depends on the school you go to. I've actually heard that some transfers do very well at OCI. Of course, I have nothing to back that up at all ... anybody have anything on that??

My problem is, I'm already in the region that I want to work. It's a really difficult decision but I think I'm not going to transfer.

The only T14 I'm considering is GULC, and I'm hearing stories about transfer students getting slammed at OCI. It is my undergrad alma mater (that shouldn't really factor in, obviously, but there's always that sense of loyalty) - but I really do like my current LS too.

I am contemplating transferring. I think as a California kid the chance to get back home may be to big to pass up.

I know generally the idea is only go to the T14. I think right now I have a good shot at Berkeley (Im about top 5-8 Percent based on last years curve), but is UCLA/USC worth applying to?

My chances of getting california even at a top student in the midwest seem to be pretty low. I am totally comfortable working in the midwest, however I think if I had to chose between midwest or Cali Id go with CA.

I have the exact opposite feeling. I'm somewhere between 10%-20% at UCLA/USC and am going to apply to Gtown. The school is great, I just do not want to be in Los Angeles anymore. I'm hoping that if I get in, OCI won't be too bad since my school has a pretty good rank/reputation, although I would still probably be at a disadvantage compared to the Gtown kids

I go to a T2 which places reasonably well in DC for a non-DC T2 and is in the same general geographic area as GULC. I feel like many of the same firms will be at GULC OCI as well be at my school's OCI. Do you think this will have any impact and give me a better shot at a 2L OCI at GULC than someone who transferred from, say, Hastings across the country?

I'm dealing with the same dilemma. I definitely think that if the firm is familiar with your original school, and you did well and transferred to GULC, your original GPA will be held in high regard. Especially, if the firm is regional.

In any case, I don't think it can hurt you.

I don't think so, except in the fact that they might recognize/respect your school and give your grades more credibility than they might otherwise. I've never been through the process though, so I'm just guessing.

If you are at the very top of your current school and want to work for the firms that will be recruiting there, maybe it would be better to stay then? I would think with grades like that you would be close to guaranteed to get something good.

Also: just read the full title of this thread, sorry for posting even though I didn't really own my exams, just facing the same question right now

If you're absolutely sure you want to do firm work, then stay put. But if you think you might want to do a clerkship (or something else that nearly requires a top degree), then you should at least consider transferring.

Hello,
I am a 2nd semester at Cooley Law (Yes laugh at me, it's OK) and while I have surprisingly enjoyed my 1st semester at Cooley (the professors are awesome) I am for obvious reasons thinking of transferring. I pulled a 4.0 in my first semester managing to book Torts and getting best essay in Torts and Property. I also was 1 point away from booking Property! My question is this, what schools do I have a reasonable opportunity to get into? My goal is to become a prosecutor upon graduation, and although I have no particular preference per se of where I would like to practice I would love to live in the Austin or Chicago area if possible. I currently am getting an 85% scholarship at Cooley, yes I know big deal. However being very debt adverse, what would you guys' advice be to me? Should I stay at Cooley and try to stay top dog or should I try to transfer to a T1 school and duke it out with the rest? I am not here to get into a debate of the merits of Cooley, for many different personal reasons I chose Cooley over other law schools, however I understand the disdain towards Cooley felt by the majority of the people on this site. I just would like some honest advice. Thanks!

What about Chicago Kent or Loyola-Chicago? Or maybe Notre Dame if you really want to go for broke?

Do law schools give transfer students $$$? I tried to pursue yahootransfer group, but i didnt have the patience to wade through.

T25 --> HYS transfer here. I concur with everything in Arrow's post (having just read through it, great job by Arrow in putting that together). Read everything in there if you are even remotely thinking about transferring, as it sums up the entire process about as well as anyone could. No need to regurgitate things here. Also feel free to consult PKSebbern's Transferring FAQ (Michigan transfer, current 3L) for some other transferring tidbits. (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62455). Also check the archives at Law School Discussion (http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/stud ... ard=1006.0) for some more transferring info. That board is dead now but the archives have some good info on dates, applications, and other random stuff.

Couple thoughts:

First, I think the toughest choice is if you have significant scholarship money at your old school. I gave up a full ride and it costs me as much for my 2L year (factoring in living costs) as it would have for my entire 3 years at my 1L school. I added roughly 1K per month to my loan payments, which is a boatload of money. Sit down and figure out what your long-term goals are and see if transferring makes fiscal sense, especially ITE. You should have a better idea of how the legal job market is by the summer when you have to make a decision (seems that some firms are unfreezing salaries, paying decent bonuses, actually starting deferred 1st years on time, etc.).

Second, think long term. It is tempting (as noted in Arrow's post) to think that LR + Scholly + not having to move across the country + not having to pay $900 bucks to apply to the T14 + not having to make new friends at a new school + not having to erase your 1L GPA + not losing connections with professors at your old school + all the other random transferring hassle = good reason for not transferring. In some limited cases, this might be true. But the name on your law degree is always going to be at the top of your resume, and in this profession, that matters a whole heck of a lot. Keep that in mind during the process.

Third, I am not a huge fan of the EA programs, unless those schools are your top choice and you feel comfortable paying full tuition to attend. Do not apply to GULC EA unless you (1) are 95% or more sure you would attend if admitted and (2) feel comfortable paying sticker price to attend there ITE. You will have to pay all of your relevant deposits (equaling $600 or so once you add in the application fee) to hold your place prior to knowing whether or not you were admitted to any other schools as a transfer during the regular admissions process (May-July/August). And they accept 100 transfers, so if you would get in during EA, there is a good shot you could get in during regular admission. If you are really worried about your 2nd semester grades, I suppose it is a good insurance policy (which was my thought when applied, but even if my grades had gone down some, I wouldn't have attend based on the cost and lack of OCI guarantee), but it seems that more often than not, the top 1L performers continue to do well the 2nd semester (but see TLS poster "Amped" for an opposing view).

As for Chicago EA, I think the below poster is one of the people who would benefit from this. Assuming a repeat performance, it seems like you will (1) be deferred EA and (2) have a better shot of getting in during the regular cycle. I believe that another poster on this board had similar stats from a similarly ranked school, applied EA and was deferred, and then got in during regular decision and believed that applying EA helped. I think if you are T40 and in the top 3-5% and want to keep open the possibility of HYS open (probably H based on the number of transfers taken per year), I don't think EA is a good call at UC. You will likely get in during the regular cycle, but if Chicago is your top choice and you would feel ok foreclosing that option, apply. TLS poster ToTransferorNot might be able to give some more insight on Chicago EA and the relative benefits and drawbacks of it.




Also, you can get need-based aid for some transfer schools in the T14. I have not heard of scholarship money, but need-based aid does get handed out to some transfer students.

1) Excellent thread, MegaTTTron.

2) I moved this to the brand new transferring forum.

3) I really ought to clarify my position re: transferring. I am NOT against all transfers. If the firm/clerkship/academic position you are seeking is just not readily available from your current school, you should absolute move up, almost irrespective of the cost. This is also true for students who need to be in a different geographic region, whether they lateral or make a significant jump. In both of these cases, I would not let money be the deciding factor. A full ride does not make a poor fit any better, it just makes it cheaper.

I am not at all anonymous and will be killed if I post my GPA on TLS. I probably have a shot at GULC EA, but as MegaTTTron correctly states, I won't do it. I am someone who puts personal happiness above all else, but I also have more concrete reasons for not doing so. Top students at my school have no trouble securing firm jobs even ITE, and might be worse off if they were considered median at any other school below HYS. I have heard from 2Ls that employers at OCI often consider transfer students as median at their new schools. (Note: anyone who gets into HYS should probably go.) Given the choice, I would rather grade onto Law Review at Fordham (not there yet (requires about top 5%), but I can hope) than be median at even NYU or CLS, as much as I love them. My own goal, a public interest job, will not be more attainable if I am a median T14 student. A Columbia diploma would be quite a pretty thing to put on my wall, but I am content to go visit my friends at CLS, and in the years to come I can admire theirs. The one I'm getting here should suit me perfectly.

If I wanted academia or a very prestigious clerkship, I might think about moving up, but even in these situations it isn't clear that I'd be better off, especially if I couldn't get on my new school's flagship journal.

To sum up: there is a definite case to be made for transferring from T2, T3, and T4 schools, though in some cases regional ties and scholarships may compel students to stay. Within the T1, and especially the T30, things get a bit more complicated. Moreover, standing out can be a very good thing. I talked to a student who transferred from a lower T2 to one of BU/BC, and she was actually told by an interviewer that they would have taken her if she'd stayed at her former school, where she was a standout student, since (apparently) they had an informal quota of students to hire from each local school. I don't think her choice to transfer was necessarily a bad one, but her experience surprised me.

I know Fordham can't give me any money. Some would say I ought to be getting the most prestigious JD for my money, and if I can even inch up to GULC, I should. I just wanted to share the justification for my stubborn loyalty, and explain that I am not against transferring in situations where it is warranted.

I will also add my plus a million for Arrow and his wonderful advice. I can't imagine where I would be without him.

Well it seems like most of you guys are way higher up the rankings than me but I feel like I am in the same boat.

I don't have my exact rank yet, but know for sure it will be a single digit and have an honest chance at being number 1, at a tier 4 school. I plan on doing both the EA at GULC and the ED at Chicago. My thought process is that given the school I am currently at I stand a snowballs chance in hell at both schools so the EA/ED is worth it for the slightly increased chance at admission. Also it will force me to get my essays and recommendations together now so when summer hits and work picks up I won't be in a huge rush.

My basic game plan is to send apps to the following schools and just pray that something sticks.

HLS (I hate living with the 'what if' feeling)
CLS
NYU
U of Chi (ED)
Berkeley (currently in Cali so they might have heard of my TTT)
Penn (multiple relatives have attended, maybe that will help?)
That School Up North (my friends would disown me, but I wouldn't be able to turn down the law school)
Duke
UVA (I know a person who did tier 4 to UVA so I feel obliged to give it a try)
GULC
tOSU (not t14 but I would love to go back)

I am not on a big scholly here so I really wouldn't be giving up much in leaving (in terms of total debt), so for me it's all about moving up the rankings as high as possible. If I get into any of the above schools, I am 100% going.

That is not at all true. You definitely don't just automatically drop down to median at your transfer school. Every firm is different in terms of what they do and they don't exactly advertise it, but I think as a general rule you can be expected to be viewed by a firm at OCI the same way that they would view you at your old school. So if you are top 10% at a t30, you can expect to be treated at least as good as top 10% at a t30 at OCI (e.g. if the firm typically hires top 10% from X school then you have a legitimate shot). The reason I say that is because median at GULC is shiitier then top 10% at Fordham.

As far as what firms do if they don't typically hire from your old school, well, it all really depends based on the firm. Based on how transfers do at OCI I think it is safe to generalize that firms view you as around top 1/3 for t10 transfers. I say that because it looks like transfers have no shot at firms like Skadden (i.e. v10), but can get firms that people at the median at the t10 typically can't. My thought is that the problem this year with OCI has been that top 1/3 wasn't getting jobs. It seems like top 20-25% were mostly in, but they the other 15-20% was getting hired anywhere from top 26%-60%. I really don't have any idea of what happened at CLS this year with transfers, but I don't think any of this is applicable to CLS because I recall reading something about 70% of the class getting offers (although there is really no way to know that for sure since they haven't officially released any information).

Definitely apply further down the rankings then that even if you remain #1 next semester. Based on what I've read on yahoo transferapps and elsewhere- T6 from a TTTT is pretty much unheard of. t10 or t14 might happen but that's not a guarantee either. t20 is a lock at #1 (but not necessarily so as #9).... If you actually look at the number of spots open at these schools and the number of students at t3 & t4 total it explains why it's not typical to make a massive jump. E.g. top 5 students at every t3 & t4 = 500 students. Not all of them will apply to transfer, but even if you assume 2/3 of them do, there is no way 330 TTT & TTTT students are going to t14s. I'm not saying don't apply, but definitely apply down into t30, and if you aren't on much of a scholly even applying to a t100 (anything below t30 that is in the region you want to be in) as a safety wouldn't be a bad idea.

I heard several horror stories from T1 to CLS transfers, but the native Columbians I knew seemed to do fine. Skadden does come to Fordham, incidentally, and will look at the top of our class. A top 5% Fordham student probably has a better chance of getting a V5 job here. (I know I'm not in the top 5%, FWIW.) Is your argument thus that I should be out of here if one of CCN can be persuaded to have me? I highly doubt that they would, no matter my GPA, so this is a pure hypothetical. If I did go to a firm, and there is one I quite like, it would be one of the last in the V100, #97 IIRC. I know they hire Fordham students.

I finished my first semester at WUSTL in the top 5%... I think there are definite pros to staying (and the more I think of it, the more pros there really are), but I think at the end of the day it would be nearly impossible for me to turn down HYS (if given the opportunity).

Are there any older students who chose not to transfer that ended up regretting not transferring?

I wasn't address you specifically OS (I really have no information about CLS or what difference the jump in rankings does for you in terms of PI jobs). I was just responding to your comment about transfers being seen at median.

Sidenote- Why is fordham so cheap about giving/increasing scholly's to the top of their class after 1L year? We got a dude at my school who transferred out of Fordham because he was paying full price, did well, and Fordham refused to give him any scholarship. It's almost like they are just signaling top students to leave because I think the typical person that is paying sticker would leave to go to GULC or better because it's the same price or cheaper.

What t30 schools do you think would be worth 2 years of sticker price + the 40k I already have (LS + UG)?

I am in a pretty desirable secondary market so giving up a good rank and a potentially big increase in scholly money to go anywhere that wouldn't give me portability would be tough to justify. Outside of the t14 I would think UCLA / USC / Texas / ND would be the best bet in that regard, no?