Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad? Forum

[friedoreos]

i like east bumblefuck

the rest of you go ahead and fight over nyc and related

[kurama20]

And Jersey. How could you forget Jersey?

Snap I did! Jersey too then!

[MC Southstar]

TLS is tolerant as hell. It's not my fault you're from East bumblefuck, kurama.

East bumblefuck--- everywhere south of DC and in between Cali and NYC.

You're pretty much on the money. A lot of Jersey is in fact eastbumblefuck too. New England, despite thinking they are better than everyone else, is also pretty bumblefuck, but at least they aren't red states.

[rayiner]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

[rondemarino]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

I could do without this.

[MC Southstar]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

Religion = bumblefuck. *runs away*

[irishman86]

Dear lord, give me an fing break!

Would I be happy making $25k after 3 years of law school? Obviously not. Would I be able to survive? Obviously yes, considering that my family had a total combined income of less than $30k a year with 3 mouths to feed, before I was old enough to start working. NYC and LA aren't the only places in the world to live--and people there manage to live on $25k a year (my uncle makes a little over $20k a year, lives in LA.) Is it a comfortable life? Not particularly, but give me a freaking break with this "OMG I COULDN'T POSSIBLY DO IT AND YOU CAN'T LIVE NORMALLY ON.")

As I've said many times, the skewed perspective of the typical law school demographic never ceases to amaze me. Edit: Not to specifically call you out, flcath (my post is more directed at irish,) but it speaks very loudly of the law school demographic that you "didn't know [living on $2k a month] could be done," considering the fact that a huge, huge number of people in the US live on a hell of a lot less than that.

As an aside: newsflash, have you ever actually managed any kind of restaurant, fast food or otherwise (For that matter, have you waited tables or worked food service in general?) It is an incredibly difficult job physically. The fact that it doesn't require much intellectual engagement is a huge negative, as far as I'm concerned. I laugh the same way when people compare lawyer salaries to plumbers and garbage truck drivers. You may metaphorically have to deal with peoples' shit and garbage as a lawyer, but there's a pretty big difference between metaphorical and literal reality.

Isn't 25k for a 5 person family below the poverty line? Not my ideal standard of living.

Where I am from, the average family makes over 125K+ and the average house costs over 800k. 20 minutes over, the average house costs 1.5 million. You can't live off 25k where I am from. I really doubt many families of 5 can live off 25k anywhere in America though. My sister lives in Utah off 55k and has a very lower middle class life. I can't see a feasible way to live normally off 25k either in a place like Salt Lake, but whatever. I guess we just have different standards. I don't have poverty level standards.

[rondemarino]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

Religion = bumblefuck. *runs away*

I'm certainly not an NYC fan, but I'll take the obnoxious New Yorkers over the "polite" people who think you're going to hell.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Dear lord, give me an fing break!

Would I be happy making $25k after 3 years of law school? Obviously not. Would I be able to survive? Obviously yes, considering that my family had a total combined income of less than $30k a year with 3 mouths to feed, before I was old enough to start working. NYC and LA aren't the only places in the world to live--and people there manage to live on $25k a year (my uncle makes a little over $20k a year, lives in LA.) Is it a comfortable life? Not particularly, but give me a freaking break with this "OMG I COULDN'T POSSIBLY DO IT AND YOU CAN'T LIVE NORMALLY ON.")

As I've said many times, the skewed perspective of the typical law school demographic never ceases to amaze me. Edit: Not to specifically call you out, flcath (my post is more directed at irish,) but it speaks very loudly of the law school demographic that you "didn't know [living on $2k a month] could be done," considering the fact that a huge, huge number of people in the US live on a hell of a lot less than that.

As an aside: newsflash, have you ever actually managed any kind of restaurant, fast food or otherwise (For that matter, have you waited tables or worked food service in general?) It is an incredibly difficult job physically. The fact that it doesn't require much intellectual engagement is a huge negative, as far as I'm concerned. I laugh the same way when people compare lawyer salaries to plumbers and garbage truck drivers. You may metaphorically have to deal with peoples' shit and garbage as a lawyer, but there's a pretty big difference between metaphorical and literal reality.

Isn't 25k for a 5 person family below the poverty line? Not my ideal standard of living.

Where I am from, the average family makes over 125K+ and the average house costs over 800k. 20 minutes over, the average house costs 1.5 million. You can't live off 25k where I am from. I really doubt many families of 5 can live off 25k anywhere in America though. My sister lives in Utah off 55k and has a very lower middle class life. I can't see a feasible way to live normally off 25k either in a place like Salt Lake, but whatever. I guess we just have different standards. I don't have poverty level standards.

By 3 mouths, I meant mine and the parents, sorry. Not 5 kids--though, for what it's worth, there are people who do it. That said, yes, that goes far beyond poverty level, and isn't what I meant.

I think where you're coming from gives you an extremely skewed perspective of what a "lower middle class life" is, so yes, it does come down to different standards. That was my point--the standards that law students as a whole have are so out of synch with the norm that I find it amusing. I'm not saying it makes you a bad person or anything; though, I do get pissed when people denigrate lines of work that they have never done. I'd be willing to bet that a pretty good chunk of law students would fail miserably in the restaurant business, and an even larger chunk would fail miserably at some of the other "trades" that are so casually thrown around as alternatives to the law (teaching being a huge one, especially if it was an urban school, plumbing, electrician, garbage disposal, firefighting, policing, etc. etc. being others.)

[rayiner]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

Religion = bumblefuck. *runs away*

Oh I'm an atheist, but I don't mind hanging out with people who think I'm going to hell. Because thinking is something you can do quietly and by yourself... Environmentalism, liberalism, etc, seem not to be.

[kurama20]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

I could do without this.

You know something-- I'm really noticing the cultural difference between those from the North and Cali as opposed to those from the south and midwest from looking at your response to his comment and what he highlighted in mine. To be fair it also has a lot to do with some of our run ins in the past. We (people in the south and basically not living in the NE and Cali) really don't care what you think--that's find and up to you--just be respectful and don't talk trash to someone who isn't talking it to you. It seems that in Cali and NYC there is this idea that you say whatever you want, to whomever you want, whenever you want, and that you shouldn't expect any sort of repercussions for this. I will admit--that kind of attitude will quickly lead to an ass kicking in the south. A lot of what you guys call not being tolerant is what we call "learning to keep your mouth shut".

I'm certainly not an NYC fan, but I'll take the obnoxious New Yorkers over the "polite" people who think you're going to hell.

And I'll take those polite people who only think that you are going to hell, over those NYC people who constantly berate you vocally on how ignorant you are for not being an atheist--- or not being a member of HRC and PETA.

Oh I'm an atheist, but I don't mind hanging out with people who think I'm going to hell. Because thinking is something you can do quietly and by yourself...

This is the key. Why do a lot of people from NYC and Cali think that everyone needs to hear what the hell they are thinking? Did you never learn that you don't always say the first thing that comes to your mind?

[flcath]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

Religion = bumblefuck. *runs away*

I'm certainly not an NYC fan, but I'll take the obnoxious New Yorkers over the "polite" people who think you're going to hell.

Eh, just act nice, fake the occasional interest in Jesus, and participate in the cultural rites (Christmas lights, et al.); it's not like you have to go to church. Southerners are way less judgmental about other shit--DUIs, corruption, that time you got drunk and beat up your wife in front of the neighbors...

Seriously though, the South gets a bad rap in a lot of ways. Namely, it's far less racist and waaaaaay less anit-Semitic than, say, Boston. I just wouldn't want to be an atheist there. Or a Muslim.

[rondemarino]

You know something-- I'm really noticing the cultural difference between those from the North and Cali as opposed to those from the south and midwest from looking at your response to his comment and what he highlighted in mine. To be fair it also has a lot to do with some of our run ins in the past. We (people in the south and basically not living in the NE and Cali) really don't care what you think--that's find and up to you--just be respectful and don't talk trash to someone who isn't talking it to you. It seems that in Cali and NYC there is this idea that you say whatever you want, to whomever you want, whenever you want, and that you shouldn't expect any sort of repercussions for this. I will admit--that kind of attitude will quickly lead to an ass kicking in the south. A lot of what you guys call not being tolerant is what we call "learning to keep your mouth shut".

I wouldn't draw too many broad conclusions about California from my posts. I'm more representative of annoying Philadelphia people (my home) than California. People in CA are a lot more mellow. Also, CA is not the liberal bastion people imagine it is.

And I'll take those polite people who only think that you are going to hell, over those NYC people who constantly berate you vocally on how ignorant you are for not being an atheist--- or not being a member of HRC and PETA.

This has to be hyperbole. I'd imagine I would run into people like this, being from Philly and all.

[MC Southstar]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

I could do without this.

You know something-- I'm really noticing the cultural difference between those from the North and Cali as opposed to those from the south and midwest from looking at your response to his comment and what he highlighted in mine. To be fair it also has a lot to do with some of our run ins in the past. We (people in the south and basically not living in the NE and Cali) really don't care what you think--that's find and up to you--just be respectful and don't talk trash to someone who isn't talking it to you. It seems that in Cali and NYC there is this idea that you say whatever you want, to whomever you want, whenever you want, and that you shouldn't expect any sort of repercussions for this. I will admit--that kind of attitude will quickly lead to an ass kicking in the south. A lot of what you guys call not being tolerant is what we call "learning to keep your mouth shut".

I'm certainly not an NYC fan, but I'll take the obnoxious New Yorkers over the "polite" people who think you're going to hell.

And I'll take those polite people who only think that you are going to hell, over those NYC people who constantly berate you vocally on how ignorant you are for not being an atheist--- or not being a member of HRC and PETA.

Oh I'm an atheist, but I don't mind hanging out with people who think I'm going to hell. Because thinking is something you can do quietly and by yourself...

This is the key. Why do a lot of people from NYC and Cali think that everyone needs to hear what the hell they are thinking? Did you never learn that you don't always say the first thing that comes to your mind?

Keeping your mouth shut is not conducive with democracy or with being a minority or with tolerance for that matter. That is up to debate, I know, but I don't consider "keeping your mouth shut" tolerance. I consider actually accepting someone else's views tolerance. You should realize that the reason I am intolerant of social conservatives and religious zealotry is because they are intolerant of more things than I can count. I'm not intolerant of their ideals. I'm intolerant of their intolerance. This is all subjective and you could always throw me a counterpunch, but you are just as deeply biased as the people you are defaming. I hate PETA activists too, who cares? What makes you think every liberal or environmentalist is a member of PETA and tells you off if you don't drink free trade coffee? A lot of people hate those sissies. There is a difference between douchebags and the general populace of a liberal area. Explain to me how having to conform to Christianity makes an area tolerant at all?

Also, I never said Boston was like a paragon of excellence. New England is just a liberal version of the south. Cold and even less ethnic diversity.

I'm sorry. Did you SERIOUSLY just tell me that speaking you mind will earn you an ass beating, and then try to claim that that is somehow tolerance? Please humor me.

[rondemarino]

These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to agree with it."

Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.

Religion = bumblefuck. *runs away*

Oh I'm an atheist, but I don't mind hanging out with people who think I'm going to hell. Because thinking is something you can do quietly and by yourself... Environmentalism, liberalism, etc, seem not to be.

I think being obnoxious cuts both ways. For every tree-hugger, I'll find you a bible thumper. For every hippie, I'll find you a teabagger.

[rondemarino]

Keeping your mouth shut is not conducive with democracy or with being a minority or with tolerance for that matter. That is up to debate, I know, but I don't consider "keeping your mouth shut" tolerance. I consider actually accepting someone else's views tolerance. You should realize that the reason I am intolerant of social conservatives and religious zealotry is because they are intolerant of more things than I can count. I'm not intolerant of their ideals. I'm intolerant of their intolerance. This is all subjective and you could always throw me a counterpunch, but you are just as deeply biased as the people you are defaming. I hate PETA activists too, who cares? What makes you think every liberal or environmentalist is a member of PETA and tells you off if you don't drink free trade coffee? A lot of people hate those sissies. There is a difference between douchebags and the general populace of a liberal area. Explain to me how having to conform to Christianity makes an area tolerant at all?

Also, I never said Boston was like a paragon of excellence. New England is just a liberal version of the south. Cold and even less ethnic diversity.

QFT. Living in the comfort of one's narrow-minded closet isn't much of a virtue in my book.

[rondemarino]

Eh, just act nice, fake the occasional interest in Jesus, and participate in the cultural rites (Christmas lights, et al.); it's not like you have to go to church. Southerners are way less judgmental about other shit--DUIs, corruption, that time you got drunk and beat up your wife in front of the neighbors...

Seriously though, the South gets a bad rap in a lot of ways. Namely, it's far less racist and waaaaaay less anit-Semitic than, say, Boston. I just wouldn't want to be an atheist there. Or a Muslim.

You know, it wasn't until recently that I strayed beyond the rarefied confines of a Boston college's campus. I would have doubted that this is true, but it didn't take terribly long to run into some ridiculously racist Bostonians on my last trip there. They probably weren't representative, but damn.

[rayiner]

Keeping your mouth shut is not conducive with democracy or with being a minority or with tolerance for that matter. That is up to debate, I know, but I don't consider "keeping your mouth shut" tolerance. I consider actually accepting someone else's views tolerance. You should realize that the reason I am intolerant of social conservatives and religious zealotry is because they are intolerant of more things than I can count. I'm not intolerant of their ideals. I'm intolerant of their intolerance. This is all subjective and you could always throw me a counterpunch, but you are just as deeply biased as the people you are defaming. I hate PETA activists too, who cares? What makes you think every liberal or environmentalist is a member of PETA and tells you off if you don't drink free trade coffee? A lot of people hate those sissies. There is a difference between douchebags and the general populace of a liberal area. Explain to me how having to conform to Christianity makes an area tolerant at all?

Also, I never said Boston was like a paragon of excellence. New England is just a liberal version of the south. Cold and even less ethnic diversity.

I'm sorry. Did you SERIOUSLY just tell me that speaking you mind will earn you an ass beating, and then try to claim that that is somehow tolerance? Please humor me.

tldr, but this is exactly what I was talking about vis-a-vis being quiet.

[underdawg]

why must people bring up values of democracy on fucking message boards? democracy doesn't hinge one bit on this retarded discussion

[MC Southstar]

Keeping your mouth shut is not conducive with democracy or with being a minority or with tolerance for that matter. That is up to debate, I know, but I don't consider "keeping your mouth shut" tolerance. I consider actually accepting someone else's views tolerance. You should realize that the reason I am intolerant of social conservatives and religious zealotry is because they are intolerant of more things than I can count. I'm not intolerant of their ideals. I'm intolerant of their intolerance. This is all subjective and you could always throw me a counterpunch, but you are just as deeply biased as the people you are defaming. I hate PETA activists too, who cares? What makes you think every liberal or environmentalist is a member of PETA and tells you off if you don't drink free trade coffee? A lot of people hate those sissies. There is a difference between douchebags and the general populace of a liberal area. Explain to me how having to conform to Christianity makes an area tolerant at all?

Also, I never said Boston was like a paragon of excellence. New England is just a liberal version of the south. Cold and even less ethnic diversity.

I'm sorry. Did you SERIOUSLY just tell me that speaking you mind will earn you an ass beating, and then try to claim that that is somehow tolerance? Please humor me.

tldr, but this is exactly what I was talking about vis-a-vis being quiet.

Yeah, I already realized that after I posted. ^__^

Just live wherever suits you and be happy. These kinds of debates are pointless because people are deeply entrenched in their own philosophies. I am one of those outspoken, obnoxious people.

[rondemarino]

I had to look up tldr, but that was well done. On occasion, I too wish everyone would take the time to enjoy a hot cup of STFU every once in a while.

[rayiner]

why must people bring up values of democracy on fucking message boards? democracy doesn't hinge one bit on this retarded discussion

Speaking of democracy, at least when you vote in American Idol your choice has meaningful consequences.

[OperaSoprano]

In other professions, this is what's called "wagging the dog." You can demand whatever salary you want, but you're not going to get it. It has more to do with the market value for your services rather than what your demands are. I think the service I give my company right now warrants a salary increase of 100%. Guess what? I'm not going to get it, because there's other people that would do my job for what I make now (although not as well, of course ). Only in law is there this notion that people are entitled to print cash before even accomplishing anything real, and it's because the maket is artificially skewed in that corporate clients seem to be willing to truck in cash simply for people with a degree from certain schools, regardless of what they have accomplished. From the rest of the world's perspective, you went to a 3 year professional school after majoring in the humanities, and now you expect a salary four times that of graduates of other graduate programs of similar length? Law school is a lot of tedious work, but it's also not rocket science. $60k after three years of grad school should be considered great, and is considered great by most of the rest of the world.

- You should watch the MLB baseball draft.
- By your logic, we should all be happy for making what the average person after three years of graduate study makes or the average person in the "rest of the world" makes? This is hilarious.

FTW. Seven years of higher education and thousands of dollars in debt bloody well justify desire for a decent paycheck.

A decent paycheck, or a chance to give back somehow. No amount of money can purchase pride in one's accomplishments. Maybe I'll have the latter someday. Generally, I agree with your logic.

Also, fighting just makes me sad. Back to furiously outlining Crim Law.

[MC Southstar]

why must people bring up values of democracy on fucking message boards? democracy doesn't hinge one bit on this retarded discussion

Speaking of democracy, at least when you vote in American Idol your choice has meaningful consequences.

The American Idol conspiracy theorists would say otherwise.

[flcath]

why must people bring up values of democracy on fucking message boards? democracy doesn't hinge one bit on this retarded discussion

All in the name of regional trolling.