ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

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FrankReynolds
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ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:45 pm

How to turn your law degree and no 2L offer into something.
This is not for everyone, and is most well-suited for students with undergraduate degrees in business or some work experience, but anyone can do it if they have an aptitude for economics/math. This plan may also work for students at lower-ranked schools, but I do not feel comfortable offering this advice because I am not sue if it would work as well.

Why this plan is great:
1) Even if it does not get you the job, doing everything on this list will make you more competitive for legal jobs; the only drawback is time spent. But hey, it's better than whining.
2) Low grades will not hurt you nearly as much(and may not even matter unless you have like all B-s) since you will be applying with a JD without much competition from other JDs

What you should do:
1) Take as many corporate law courses as you can...especially finance/banking courses that don't sound like law courses, but are taught in the law school
2) Research how many credits you can take at your school's business school, and max that out, now or in the Spring. (your business school may have a different schedule, and you may still be able to add/drop fall). You may also be able to take extra courses beyond the maximum allowed; they just won't count toward your crdit requirement.
3) Don't do a JDMBA, but do use the resources of the business school and join clubs there if any spark your interest.
4) Apply for corporate jobs for your 2L summer. Banks, Consulting firms, or any non-legal internship with big corporations. Make sure to put on your resume your planned coursework for the spring semester, which should include as many business school courses as possible. Write an awesome cover letter about how much you love business/finance/consulting, and went to law school to get a different perspective. Explain how this will provide value to the company.
5) Come up with a great story on why you love law school, but had always intended on using your law degree as a flexible tool since you knew your school allowed you to take a lot of business coursework.
6) Write a note on a business law topic closely related to the field you are interested in working in. Formulate the topic NOW, so you can put it on your resume as "Working Paper: The economics of blabla." Finish this by Summer 2010.

If there is interest in the comments on this thread, I will post more advice on this topic. This strategy was something I thought about a lot as a fallback plan if I did not receive an offer for next summer. Fortunately I did, but I feel for my fellow students, and would be glad to help

FrankReynolds
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:49 pm

caveat: Of course I know that the finance and consulting industries are also being hit very hard. However, in my opinion the recruiting dynamics for 2Ls without summer offers are rather complex. Because of the huge amount of deferrals, even if the economy picks up by 2011, it may still be a year or more before firms start needing to recruit more heavily. In contrast, finance and consulting jobs are often characterized by 2-3 year positions, and if the economy picks up by 2011, I think the market for those jobs will be better than the lagging legal market.

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DoctorNick189
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby DoctorNick189 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:47 am

More advice would be much appreciated, thanks.

Georgetown51
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Georgetown51 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:18 am

This advice will not succeed in my opinion. Banks and Consulting firms, like law firms, have recruiting strategies. I have worked at a large consulting firm and seen it first hand. They a) recruit at well regarded colleges for majors they like, for example finance, economics, accounting, b) hire MBAs or people with graduate degrees in accounting or finance, and c) hire laterals from other banks or consulting firms. I fail to see what a JD who has had little business experience aside from corporate law courses which are of zero relevance, can contribute at either a consulting firm or a bank without also having relevant work experience and/or educational background. To succeed in either of these professions you have to have some core set of skills, and these places can hire eager, high achieving undergrads who have just finished four years of relevant course work. Your two or three classes at the business school are not going to make up for the fact that you have spent the last three years getting a law degree.

FrankReynolds
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:27 am

yea you are wrong but okay.

helvidius2010
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby helvidius2010 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:32 am

fail

Anonymous User
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:26 am

Good luck without a JD/MBA, at least for the rung of pay you seem to be thinking about. And I hope your UG major had something to do with numbers. And that's if the bank is hiring at all. If you do hang out at the business school, you'll note that they've been at least as suicidal as anyone at the law school.

Hell, it's not like 60% of the top positions were eliminated or anything. Oh wait...
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Dick Whitman » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 am

Georgetown51 wrote:This advice will not succeed in my opinion. Banks and Consulting firms, like law firms, have recruiting strategies. I have worked at a large consulting firm and seen it first hand. They a) recruit at well regarded colleges for majors they like, for example finance, economics, accounting, b) hire MBAs or people with graduate degrees in accounting or finance, and c) hire laterals from other banks or consulting firms. I fail to see what a JD who has had little business experience aside from corporate law courses which are of zero relevance, can contribute at either a consulting firm or a bank without also having relevant work experience and/or educational background. To succeed in either of these professions you have to have some core set of skills, and these places can hire eager, high achieving undergrads who have just finished four years of relevant course work. Your two or three classes at the business school are not going to make up for the fact that you have spent the last three years getting a law degree.


McKinsey recruits from NU Law.

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edcrane
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby edcrane » Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:32 pm

Georgetown51 wrote:This advice will not succeed in my opinion. Banks and Consulting firms, like law firms, have recruiting strategies. I have worked at a large consulting firm and seen it first hand. They a) recruit at well regarded colleges for majors they like, for example finance, economics, accounting, b) hire MBAs or people with graduate degrees in accounting or finance, and c) hire laterals from other banks or consulting firms. I fail to see what a JD who has had little business experience aside from corporate law courses which are of zero relevance, can contribute at either a consulting firm or a bank without also having relevant work experience and/or educational background. To succeed in either of these professions you have to have some core set of skills, and these places can hire eager, high achieving undergrads who have just finished four years of relevant course work. Your two or three classes at the business school are not going to make up for the fact that you have spent the last three years getting a law degree.


Lulz.

It doesn't take four years of UG or two years of graduate school to figure out how to perform rudimentary arithmetic operations or how sumproduct works in excel. Indeed, the fact that consulting (and to a lesser extend) IB companies regularly recruit history majors and JDs confirms this.

You are clearly overestimating both the complexity of MBA/finance coursework and the importance of specialized formal education in the above fields.

FrankReynolds
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:38 am

Good luck without a JD/MBA, at least for the rung of pay you seem to be thinking about.


Why is this post anonymous? But anyways... I never actually mentioned any rung of pay. The assumption is that those who struck out at OCI would be willing to work for less pay than they would have 2-3 years ago. I am aware of consulting firms and banks that hire JDs--some as analysts, and some as associates. Frankly, a 2L with no job should be jumping for a job at top banks/consulting firms, no matter what their starting level/paygrade is.

And having a JDMBA is pretty much irrelevant. Do you really think they care if you have that extra year, as long as you can demonstrate proficiency during an interview?

Finally, I just can't imagine how this strategy could possibly hurt you. If you fail you still have as many options.

Anonymous User
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:43 am

Dick Whitman wrote:
Georgetown51 wrote:This advice will not succeed in my opinion. Banks and Consulting firms, like law firms, have recruiting strategies. I have worked at a large consulting firm and seen it first hand. They a) recruit at well regarded colleges for majors they like, for example finance, economics, accounting, b) hire MBAs or people with graduate degrees in accounting or finance, and c) hire laterals from other banks or consulting firms. I fail to see what a JD who has had little business experience aside from corporate law courses which are of zero relevance, can contribute at either a consulting firm or a bank without also having relevant work experience and/or educational background. To succeed in either of these professions you have to have some core set of skills, and these places can hire eager, high achieving undergrads who have just finished four years of relevant course work. Your two or three classes at the business school are not going to make up for the fact that you have spent the last three years getting a law degree.


McKinsey recruits from NU Law.


Plus a number of other schools, including NYU and HLS for sure and probably YLS.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:29 pm

Frankly, a 2L with no job should be jumping for a job at top banks/consulting firms, no matter what their starting level/paygrade is.


Why should a 2L with no job be jumping for a non-legal job that pays the same as non-Big Law entry level legal jobs? People don't get JD's to take undergrad positions. I see no prestige (lol), economic or career reason for this proposition.

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spanktheduck
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby spanktheduck » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:49 pm

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:
Frankly, a 2L with no job should be jumping for a job at top banks/consulting firms, no matter what their starting level/paygrade is.


Why should a 2L with no job be jumping for a non-legal job that pays the same as non-Big Law entry level legal jobs? People don't get JD's to take undergrad positions. I see no prestige (lol), economic or career reason for this proposition.


B/c if you can actually get a consultin/bank gig it probably has a better (financial) upside than working at a non big law gig.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:32 pm

Even the JD Underground pity party would admit that lawyers escalate quite well once they actually get experience. Of course, that actually involves practicing law. If you're contemplating jumping out of the profession entirely because you didn't get a summer job, I'd say you have some issues there.

FrankReynolds
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:45 pm

why do people with absolutely no clue post.

banking and consulting jobs pay more than any realistic alternative for a 2L with no biglaw offer. as has been said over and over, there really is no such thing as midlaw. its biglaw or bust. 160k or sub50k.

Renzo
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Renzo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:49 pm

You are definitely the first person to ever think of trying to go into IB or consulting from law school. And I'm sure that it's much easier to compete against all of law schools, B-school, quants, and econ grads for such jobs than to compete for law jobs.


Your plan is a good one, and well thought out.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:17 pm

Renzo wrote:You are definitely the first person to ever think of trying to go into IB or consulting from law school. And I'm sure that it's much easier to compete against all of law schools, B-school, quants, and econ grads for such jobs than to compete for law jobs.


Indeed. It would be silly to rely on your own field's barrier to entry when you can clearly out-compete so many other people with specialized training and experience. And this industry has also suffered no downturn similar to that of law and has no surplus of experienced individuals willing to take lower-level jobs, as law does.

Alternatively, just play poker at a skill level of 5+ standard deviations above normal money players, because as you were smart enough to go to law school, these people are chumps.

FrankReynolds
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:51 pm

why do you people with no clue continue to post.

the top banks are hiring again.

everyone at goldman is talking about bonuses.

there are like 100 IPOs in the pipeline.

it's cool to be a banker again!

get with the program.

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Splitt3r
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Splitt3r » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:42 pm

Note that the current CEO of goldman has a JD, not an MBA.

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Kompressor
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Kompressor » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:24 am

Ok, this is clearly a flame.

Anonymous User
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:26 am

Splitt3r wrote:Note that the current CEO of goldman has a JD, not an MBA.


+1. just wanted to highlight this for a sec.

consulting gigs like McKinsey and BCG are known to actively recruit at some law schools.

though, if you can't get a (law-related) job in the first place, you probably can't get a decent finance/consulting job.

FrankReynolds
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby FrankReynolds » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:55 am

The level of ignorance is so high I no longer wonder why people have no offers.

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:56 am

Kompressor wrote:Ok, this is clearly a flame.


Yeah, this jumped the flame event horizon.

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PatMoore05
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby PatMoore05 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:25 am

FrankReynolds wrote:why do people with absolutely no clue post.

banking and consulting jobs pay more than any realistic alternative for a 2L with no biglaw offer. as has been said over and over, there really is no such thing as midlaw. its biglaw or bust. 160k or sub50k.


I don't disagree that your plan could work quite well, but this business about either 160k or sub 50k is absolutely ridiculous. I know first year associates at firms with ~10 attorneys that make well beyond 50k in small towns. I understand you are generalizing, but that disparity is just not true for many many people.

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Dick Whitman
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Re: ADVICE: T14 without offer? Interested in finance/consulting?

Postby Dick Whitman » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:54 pm

PatMoore05 wrote:
FrankReynolds wrote:why do people with absolutely no clue post.

banking and consulting jobs pay more than any realistic alternative for a 2L with no biglaw offer. as has been said over and over, there really is no such thing as midlaw. its biglaw or bust. 160k or sub50k.


I don't disagree that your plan could work quite well, but this business about either 160k or sub 50k is absolutely ridiculous. I know first year associates at firms with ~10 attorneys that make well beyond 50k in small towns. I understand you are generalizing, but that disparity is just not true for many many people.


An inability to read a graph is a bad indicator of future success in i-banking/consulting.




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