T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

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T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:37 pm

I posted this in a different thread, but here it is again if people didn't see it:

I am a 3L at a T10 school, I'll share my view on the job market: It's bad. It's worse than anyone who is just now starting law school could even imagine. I hope you all read AboveTheLaw.com to get a flavor. But, the reality is you can't really appreciate it until you're living it.

One myth that seems like a common misconception that I think needs to be dispelled is that there is a tier of mid-level jobs between biglaw and $40k/yr. Make no mistake, there is not. The salary distribution for lawyers is bi-modal, see here for a graphical depiction of the class of 2007 starting salaries: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... p_2007.gif The notion that "I'll get something, even if it isn't big law or $160k/yr, I'll get something that is good enough. I don't need such a big inflated salary" is horribly misguided. The reality is that anything is hard to come by right now, even volunteer or public interest positions.

You should know that many people are scrambling to find free, volunteer jobs right now and being turned away. The market is flooded with deferred big law outcasts who need to fill their time with something, anything.

The reality is that law school does not teach to you be a lawyer. Only practice does that. You don't realize this until much later in LS or as you contemplate actual practice. So, when you realize this, you will understand why someone would be willing to work for free so that they can obtain some modicum of practical experience--not so that they can get *better* job as a lawyer, but so they can practice law at all. Another misconception is that this is connected to top schools that only teach "theory." I can assure you that your trial advocacy, moot court, clinicals, etc. are not actual preparation for being a real lawyer and providing actual value to a real client.

Another misconception that I see here a lot is that because law school is 3 years long, it's a 3 year hideout from the bad economy. But this too is misguided. The reality is that legal hiring happens fast. Your first-year summer job may dictate what is available to you for your second summer. Not just because of the prestige but because of the skills you will learn. Your second summer you will be competing against people who may have obtained more experience their first summer and will outshine you in your work. This trend continues throughout law school. First year summer jobs are often sought on December 1st of your first year. So really, you only have a few months to hideout.

I'll take questions for a little while if anyone cares to ask any. And yes, I do have a big law offer. But, I have watched my friends and colleagues be slaughtered.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dk8
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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby dk8 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:42 pm

what was your class rank? did you get your offer after your 1L year?

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:43 pm

dk8 wrote:what was your class rank? did you get your offer after your 1L year?


I am above median, nothing special though. Yes I had a firm job my 1L year. The firm job gave me the experience to do well enough my second summer to get an offer (in my opinion at least).

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:50 pm

.
Last edited by 98234872348 on Thu May 19, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby greyarea » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:52 pm

Besides the obvious formula of being top 10% and attending a T14 (or T10), what would you suggest in terms of course selection for being better prepared to practice law? Or is everything in law school doomed to being an academic exercise that won't be applied in the "real world" ?

I hear IP concentration is more secure than others, but do you know of any specific areas of concentration that don't require a science background and are marketable? (E.g. Real estate, Tax law, etc..)

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:53 pm

mistergoft wrote:What percentage of your classmates do you believe will not have secured viable legal employment by the time that they graduate.

By "viable" of course I mean employment that will allow them to pay off their loans free of any major financial difficulties (I do not believe that a salary below 60k would not be considered viable under this definition).


It's hard to say. Some people are open about talking about it, but many aren't. Of the people I know, I would say it's about 50/50 at best. Maybe it'll be better if people at my school do well in the clerkship hunt, but this year that seems like an exceptionally difficult path.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:54 pm

Would you go to a t10 with no grants, or a t30 (say GWU) on a full ride in this economy?

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:56 pm

greyarea wrote:Besides the obvious formula of being top 10% and attending a T14 (or T10), what would you suggest in terms of course selection for being better prepared to practice law? Or is everything in law school doomed to being an academic exercise that won't be applied in the "real world" ?

I hear IP concentration is more secure than others, but do you know of any specific areas of concentration that don't require a science background and are marketable? (E.g. Real estate, Tax law, etc..)


IP is rumored to be safer, but I know several engineers with good grades with no job offers or prospects. I guess my suggestion would be to pursue something you really want to do after graduation. Believe it or not employers seem to care about passion, enthusiasm, and demonstrated interest in a particular field--even something boring like tax. This could come in writing seminar papers or doing special research for a professor on the area. Also joining on-campus groups or other activities. Anything to show real interest, not the fake interest 99% of the rest of your classmates will show.

Edit: Showing substantially realistic fake interest will also likely do the trick. But you have to sell it. Write papers, do research, get involved, even if you are just doing so you can try to pick up one of few (if any) jobs available when the time comes.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Would you go to a t10 with no grants, or a t30 (say GWU) on a full ride in this economy?


Personally, I would go to the T10. But I would completely understand someone who is risk-averse taking the full ride. A full ride to a reasonably good school like GW is tough to turn down right now. But, looking longterm, when the economy recovers the T10 person may have a higher lifetime earning potential and may grab one of the few entry-level jobs available. The GW student will have an uphill (though free) climb to be sure.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby A'nold » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:00 pm

Flame. Go back to JDU.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:03 pm

A'nold wrote:Flame. Go back to JDU.



I was thinking this might be the case. Perhaps we have an abuse of the anonymous post going on here.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:04 pm

A'nold wrote:Flame. Go back to JDU.


I assure you I am not from JDU. Although, those guys have a point some of the time. If you can't tell the difference between what I'm saying (and how I say it) and the BS they spout you are lacking in the reading comprehension department. Check out the above on GW vs a T10 or my advice on how to distinguish yourself... not JDU-esque I assure you.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby helfer snooterbagon » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:05 pm

I posted this in another thread, but I will repeat it here for the OP: Go Fuck yourself

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:07 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
A'nold wrote:Flame. Go back to JDU.



I was thinking this might be the case. Perhaps we have an abuse of the anonymous post going on here.


I don't think anything I've said that is overly controversial or inflammatory. If it seems that crazy to you, then I guess that means it's all the better I shared it.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:09 pm

helfer snooterbagon wrote:I posted this in another thread, but I will repeat it here for the OP: Go Fuck yourself


Peace out. This is the last post from the OP. Any anon after this isn't me.

I came here to share info and even take questions from people who may honestly want to ask them--and I answered honestly. You guys have your heads stuck so far into the sand it's amazing. You're terrified of anyone who doesn't spout the same sunshine and lollipops BS. Hope I helped with the few answers I gave.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:13 pm

I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby lawlover829 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.

ops this was from me.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.



The economy is shit= new viewpoint. Got it.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:15 pm

Sorry, but I don't think the OP has actually said anything that controversial. It doesn't really sound JDU-esque, usually they just bitch about non-T14 private schools and "shitlaw".

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:16 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.



The economy is shit= new viewpoint. Got it.


You sound like an enormous douchebag. Seriously.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby lawlover829 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:18 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Sorry, but I don't think the OP has actually said anything that controversial. It doesn't really sound JDU-esque, usually they just bitch about non-T14 private schools and "shitlaw".


Yea I guess I agree. Econ=shitshow the end. I guess it's good to have a sour viewpoint also. :roll: I'm trying to be positive.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby amped » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:21 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Sorry, but I don't think the OP has actually said anything that controversial. It doesn't really sound JDU-esque, usually they just bitch about non-T14 private schools and "shitlaw".


+1. And why are people being so blatantly rude? The guy is just trying to give you his perspective on the market...take it for what it's worth. If you don't like it or think he's wrong then leave or try to disagree in a civilized manner. Telling the OP to go F himself is childish.

FWIW, I hope the OP will come back. I thought he had some good (and realistic) advice.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think OP has some contributions.... It's important to get new viewpoints.



The economy is shit= new viewpoint. Got it.


You sound like an enormous douchebag. Seriously.


Oh no :(

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:22 pm

lawlover829 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Sorry, but I don't think the OP has actually said anything that controversial. It doesn't really sound JDU-esque, usually they just bitch about non-T14 private schools and "shitlaw".


Yea I guess I agree. Econ=shitshow the end. I guess it's good to have a sour viewpoint also. :roll: I'm trying to be positive.


It's not just the economy, which will rebound eventually. You should look into structural changes that are affecting the practice of law and how both law firms, large and small, and client companies interact. It's just not the same game anymore. The contraction in the legal market may someday recover, but it will not be on the same timeline as the broader economic recovery. Things like moving toward fixed fee billing (vs the billable hour) and leaving lockstep (see Orrick, et al) are dramatically changing the legal hiring market for good. This affect not just biglaw, but will trickle down to the entire legal economy. If fewer are needed in biglaw, where do you think those top-tier grads are headed? They'll be taking the few jobs that used to exist for mid-tier grads or low-tier grads with great grades.

Saying "the economy sucks, I know" is another escape from facing reality.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T10 3L Discusses The Job Market ITE (Qs Welcome)

Postby natalie123 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:22 pm

I thought the OP was being helpful and realistic. I don't think he's JDU.




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