Military Law Forum

[Patrick Bateman]

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!

i'm going to be a 1L in a few weeks (!) and i've been seriously considering the JAG route. like someone said earlier, usually when i get these ambitious ideas, they kind of fizzle out, but this one has stuck with me for a long while, through several hours of research and consideration.

i'm focusing mainly on navy or coast guard JAG. i need to be near the coasts, both for my sanity and my significant other's job prospects (he works in the marine industry and it would be difficult for him be happily employed in the breadbasket of america).

i feel like the CG route is very different from that of the other branches, because it's so small, DOHS instead of DOD, almost exclusively domestic, etc. that appeals to me in some ways, but i also like what the navy has to offer (based off the website, mostly). i know both are also super-competitive, so i'm trying to keep my options open.

if anyone has any insight or additional information on anything that you think would be useful to me, i'd really appreciate it.

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

Hey, a few things to consider RE: Coast Guard v. Navy. First of all, in the CG, you are a line officer (there is no JAG corps, per se). Also, you begin in the CG as a full Lieutenant while, again, I believe, the Navy you are a Lieutenant, Junior Grade. This is important because, in the CG, you can be "integrated" into the service at Lieutenant Commander and be assured a retirement. So, basically, if you are promoted once, you can get some sort of retirement. I do not believe this is necessary true with the Navy. Finally, because the CG is exempt from the Posse Comatatus Act et al, you will be doing traditional law enforcement law a lot while in the Navy you will be doing none of that.

This isn't meant to persuade you one way or another, I love both the navy and the Coast Guard. However, maybe just because I've toyed with joining the CG off and on for years, I tend to lean more towards one branch than the other often. They are two very different forces that do very different albeit equally important missions. But, that being said, you will be serving your country either way, so you really can't go wrong! Good luck.

PS: If you decide that full-time service isn't in the cards in the end, you can be a reserve JAG officer in the CG but not in the Navy.

PPS: I found this very interesting, but the CG is the only military service in the US where men and women can serve side-by-side at all duty stations. Because this is a rather important issue to me, I found it very heartening.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "integrated" in to the CG. Are you referring to how it used to work in terms of only having a "reserve" commission in a service before earning a true active duty commission? If so, I'm certain that process has been phased out. If you are active duty, you have an active duty commission.

Also, isn't retirement merely a matter of making the 20 year mark?

Lastly, you can absolutely serve in the Reserves as a Navy JAG.

[theskippa10]

Does anyone know anything about fitness waivers, espicially for the army? I blew out my knee in highschool, and have had major reconstructive surgery. I have a few screws in there, and worry i won't be able to handle extended running in officers basic. I could probably pss the fitness tests, since its only a mile or two, but anything more than that may be rough for me. any info wouldbe great

[iagolives]

Lastly, you can absolutely serve in the Reserves as a Navy JAG.

Really? You can go directly into the navy reserves and be a JAG? It was my understanding you couldn't. Good to know!

[Patrick Bateman]

Lastly, you can absolutely serve in the Reserves as a Navy JAG.

Really? You can go directly into the navy reserves and be a JAG? It was my understanding you couldn't. Good to know!

That's not exactly what I said. The post to which I was replying:
"PS: If you decide that full-time service isn't in the cards in the end, you can be a reserve JAG officer in the CG but not in the Navy."

Navy, just like AF, does not allow for a direct commission into the JAG Corps.

The way the quote was phrased implied (to me) that service in the Naval Reserve as a JAG was not possible. It is. That's it.

[J-Rod]

Lastly, you can absolutely serve in the Reserves as a Navy JAG.

Really? You can go directly into the navy reserves and be a JAG? It was my understanding you couldn't. Good to know!

That's not exactly what I said. The post to which I was replying:
"PS: If you decide that full-time service isn't in the cards in the end, you can be a reserve JAG officer in the CG but not in the Navy."

Navy, just like AF, does not allow for a direct commission into the JAG Corps.

The way the quote was phrased implied (to me) that service in the Naval Reserve as a JAG was not possible. It is. That's it.

Correct. You cannot direct commission into the Navy JAGC Reserve. You must serve on active duty first.

[Paichka]

Does anyone know anything about fitness waivers, espicially for the army? I blew out my knee in highschool, and have had major reconstructive surgery. I have a few screws in there, and worry i won't be able to handle extended running in officers basic. I could probably pss the fitness tests, since its only a mile or two, but anything more than that may be rough for me. any info wouldbe great

You have to go through a process to obtain what is called a "permanent profile", but it can be done. You'd have to be seen an evaluated by an orthopedist for starters, but if they determined that the only adverse impact would be on your running, they'd give you a P-3 profile, which would exempt you from the running portion of the PT test (2 miles, btw). You'd do an alternate event, usually walking.

There's not a whole ton of running in school, usually. If you were trying to go Airborne or Air Assault, you might be up a creek, but there were two people in my officer basic course who couldn't run (one of them was the instructor). They walked for PT in the morning, or rode their bikes.

There are a lot of people with that kind of profile -- as long as you can still pass the height/weight standards and wear your body armor, you'd be good to hook.

[ArkansasFan]

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!

i'm going to be a 1L in a few weeks (!) and i've been seriously considering the JAG route. like someone said earlier, usually when i get these ambitious ideas, they kind of fizzle out, but this one has stuck with me for a long while, through several hours of research and consideration.

i'm focusing mainly on navy or coast guard JAG. i need to be near the coasts, both for my sanity and my significant other's job prospects (he works in the marine industry and it would be difficult for him be happily employed in the breadbasket of america).

i feel like the CG route is very different from that of the other branches, because it's so small, DOHS instead of DOD, almost exclusively domestic, etc. that appeals to me in some ways, but i also like what the navy has to offer (based off the website, mostly). i know both are also super-competitive, so i'm trying to keep my options open.

if anyone has any insight or additional information on anything that you think would be useful to me, i'd really appreciate it.

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

Hey, a few things to consider RE: Coast Guard v. Navy. First of all, in the CG, you are a line officer (there is no JAG corps, per se). Also, you begin in the CG as a full Lieutenant while, again, I believe, the Navy you are a Lieutenant, Junior Grade. This is important because, in the CG, you can be "integrated" into the service at Lieutenant Commander and be assured a retirement. So, basically, if you are promoted once, you can get some sort of retirement. I do not believe this is necessary true with the Navy. Finally, because the CG is exempt from the Posse Comatatus Act et al, you will be doing traditional law enforcement law a lot while in the Navy you will be doing none of that.

This isn't meant to persuade you one way or another, I love both the navy and the Coast Guard. However, maybe just because I've toyed with joining the CG off and on for years, I tend to lean more towards one branch than the other often. They are two very different forces that do very different albeit equally important missions. But, that being said, you will be serving your country either way, so you really can't go wrong! Good luck.

PS: If you decide that full-time service isn't in the cards in the end, you can be a reserve JAG officer in the CG but not in the Navy.

PPS: I found this very interesting, but the CG is the only military service in the US where men and women can serve side-by-side at all duty stations. Because this is a rather important issue to me, I found it very heartening.

I'm glad you pitched in with the Coastie info. I'm interested in them and the law enforcement role because I am a law enforcement officer now, and I have some environmental science background in undergrad which also relates to the USCG mission.

[alibaba286]

Thanks for all of the information. There's so much to know, not just about JAG but the military in general. If I were to try and get this kind of information out of my Navy relatives, I wouldn't even know where to start!

I do like the CG option, but I also like the idea of working and living abroad, which I could potentially do in the Navy if I made the effort. We shall see...got to get to law school first.

[Rotor]

First off, apologies for not quoting and addressing by name, but am on my phone about to cross into NE on my way to CA for school.

I did want to touch on a couple of things that have popped up while I was away:

Every salute I received from one of my sailors was returned with the utmost respect for his/her service. I know that was the prevailing attitude of the comments above, but just wanted to throw in my two cents that the returned salute from this O-5 at least held as much respect for the brand new boot reporting to the ship. Sorry if I may offend the guy who posted about his dad, but I don't even think different era explains his story. Anyone who systematically disrespects a superior regardless of branch doesn't deserve his stripes.

Second to the potential Coastie who assumed you'd only be doing domestic law, don't be so sure. CG also does environmental enforcement and I'm sure they get involved with international regulators on Maritime Pollution (MARPOL) pacts. They also enforce shipbuilding standards for US flagged ships and those entering US waters. Many of those are based ISO standards. Sure you probably won't be working directly with the international orgs early in your career, but you'll be exposed to it regularly.

3. Finally, you do need to go 20 to vest in the retirement (reserve rules vary). At least in the Navy, you have to make O-4/LCDR to be eligible to continue to 20. Otherwise, you'll be out in the "up or out" promotion system.

[texaslawyer]

You need to really screw up not to make O-4. Although, I have seen it happen. I knew a young man, Annapolis grad, top ten per cent at Boat School, tops in his flight class, F14 Tomcat pilot, MBA from Northwestern, all the right tickets semmingly being punched. Anyway he retired as a Lt. Commander. He now practices law somewhere in Iowa, but it's the luck of the draw with assignments to get promotions. Also, one bad OER and you are done. Sadly it only takes one. I'd say if you want to be a litigator, the JAG corps would be a nice way to start.

[BHL]

Does anyone know anything about fitness waivers, espicially for the army? I blew out my knee in highschool, and have had major reconstructive surgery. I have a few screws in there, and worry i won't be able to handle extended running in officers basic. I could probably pss the fitness tests, since its only a mile or two, but anything more than that may be rough for me. any info wouldbe great

I didn't have any trouble getting cleared, but I don't have any major limitations for activity. Were you cleared to make a full return to activity? Why exactly can't you do anything more than 2 miles?

Each person is different and they'll test you out in MEPS to ensure you can squat down with your butt to your heels and also a fall forward onto your knees thing in which both knees are supposed to hit at the same time. Very uncomfortable. Either way, the only way you'll know is by asking the medical people of the branch.

[texaslawyer]

I blew my ACL/MCL and meniscus and it kept me out of the Marine JAG/flight program. However, knee surgery was in it's infancy 35 years ago. I think it depends on what branch you are trying to get into.

[theskippa10]

Its just running longer distances kill me, since i have very little cartilage left in my knee. I've had a few lubricant shots to help, but they only help for a few months. I want to go Army, and i think i have a shot. My father was a lifer, and he said he knew a bunch of support troops that got medical waivers, but i'm still a little nervous

[FeuerFrei]

.

[oldtimernewname]

For anyone who has done the AF GLP or OYCP program, after you have been selected/accepted, does the AF recommend or tell you which classes they want you to take in your remaining years or does it have no bearing on your future curriculum?

I've done neither program, but I work in a legal office. It has no bearing at all on your future curriculum, though the SJA at my base has recommended trial advocacy and evidence.

[Patrick Bateman]

For anyone who has done the AF GLP or OYCP program, after you have been selected/accepted, does the AF recommend or tell you which classes they want you to take in your remaining years or does it have no bearing on your future curriculum?

I've done neither program, but I work in a legal office. It has no bearing at all on your future curriculum, though the SJA at my base has recommended trial advocacy and evidence.

I'll second that. When I interviewed for Direct Appointment back in 07, my classes that had a litigation focus/tint were looked favorably upon. Evidence, trial ad, pre-trial litigation, white collar crime, etc. Classes like that are well received by JAG Accessions.

That said, having taken those classes and now practicing as a JAG, I would take as much evidence, pre-trial investigation/procedure, and criminal procedure as possible. The Military Rules of Evidence nearly mirror the FRE, so getting a hold on those early on will be a great asset.

[dapoetic1]

Does anyone know anything about fitness waivers, espicially for the army? I blew out my knee in highschool, and have had major reconstructive surgery. I have a few screws in there, and worry i won't be able to handle extended running in officers basic. I could probably pss the fitness tests, since its only a mile or two, but anything more than that may be rough for me. any info wouldbe great

You have to go through a process to obtain what is called a "permanent profile", but it can be done. You'd have to be seen an evaluated by an orthopedist for starters, but if they determined that the only adverse impact would be on your running, they'd give you a P-3 profile, which would exempt you from the running portion of the PT test (2 miles, btw). You'd do an alternate event, usually walking.

There's not a whole ton of running in school, usually. If you were trying to go Airborne or Air Assault, you might be up a creek, but there were two people in my officer basic course who couldn't run (one of them was the instructor). They walked for PT in the morning, or rode their bikes.

There are a lot of people with that kind of profile -- as long as you can still pass the height/weight standards and wear your body armor, you'd be good to hook.

While it is true that if you're injured on active duty you can in fact get a waiver for things like running, marching, bending and lifting. This is not necessarily the case for civilians coming on active duty. There's a different requirment for people that want to join the military with a history of injury and people in the military that become injured.
In the case of the former there is a LOOOOOONG list of disqualifying factors for military service. Many of times any kind of surgical correction for bones, joints, ligaments or sometimes vision are automatically disqualifying. The problem is that when you leave active duty you have to undergo an exam and a screening through the VA's office. If you're injured while on active duty then most of the time you will be compensated for those injuries. However, if your injury existed prior to service you can not and will not be compensated. so if they allow you to come on active duty already with surgical screws in place then there is no telling what you may do to your knee while on active duty, and therefore no way of knowing if when you leave and you have further exacerbated your injury if it was caused due to the military or if it was like that prior to you joining.

I don't want to tell you flat out a yes or no answer because I'm certainly no doctor, but those doctors at the MEPS (military entrancing processing stations) will certainly almost withe 100% certainty I can say this--certainly disqualify you from military service with that kind of injury. They're just not going to take the risk. I've seen people disqualified for much, much, less, but a knee surgery with srugical hardware is practically disqualifying for continued service on active duty and you probably will not be able to enter the military with this injury.

[BHL]

Its just running longer distances kill me, since i have very little cartilage left in my knee. I've had a few lubricant shots to help, but they only help for a few months. I want to go Army, and i think i have a shot. My father was a lifer, and he said he knew a bunch of support troops that got medical waivers, but i'm still a little nervous

Just apply and see what happens. I had surgery on my knee to repair my ACL and meniscus and had no problems getting medically cleared. I provided the documentation saying that I was cleared to return to full physical activity after I did my physical rehab. This was all they seemed to want and I could do all the MEPS stuff, so I was fine. I think the Dr. asks you if you have any physical limitations for running and what not (I don't remember), so your limitations may raise some red flags there.

[FeuerFrei]

.

[oldtimernewname]

That's interesting. I'd think if they had you two years out they'd want to mold you into what they need. That said, have you heard anything about 1L and 2L jobs if you've been accepted into the GLP? Are there recommended/required jobs or is it again best to just look for a firm job that will give you litigation experience?

If you haven't been accepted to the GLP, having legal experience is a big plus, according to my SJA. He has never specified which kind -- just that the legal experience was there. I know some of the JAGs in my office did a clinic at there school -- you can get credit, and work real cases for real clients. There are clinics available in the summer. I don't think the kind of legal experience is what they are looking for ... just that you had some kind of legal experience. Try to find a job you will both enjoy and excel at.

If you've already been accepted to GLP, I know one of your summers you will spend 6 weeks at field training. I'm not sure what your other summer will look like, though. They may require you to do an Air Force summer internship.

[3milesup]

Anyone have any advice on what I should have my recommenders put in their letters of recommendations??

Some of them have asked me what they should focus on.

Thanks!

[Patrick Bateman]

Anyone have any advice on what I should have my recommenders put in their letters of recommendations??

Some of them have asked me what they should focus on.

Thanks!

Love of Freedom, hatred of terrorists. Desire to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture...and kill them.

[amorphousbulge]

What's that about squatting with your knees touching your butt?

Also, what's the deal with getting exemptions on physical stuff?

[BHL]

Anyone have any advice on what I should have my recommenders put in their letters of recommendations??

Some of them have asked me what they should focus on.

Thanks!

Read the directions for the application or you can read through this thread since others have asked (I suppose because they failed to read the directions too).

[BHL]

What's that about squatting with your knees touching your butt?

Also, what's the deal with getting exemptions on physical stuff?

I don't know about the exemptions.

The knees to your butt is just part of the MEPS physical. They make you do a bunch of odd movements to ensure your joints work properly (well, I'm speculating that's why they're doing it). It was rather uncomfortable.