Can I get my 2L summer employer supervisors to vouch for my work ethic/horsepower/etc.? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Ideally, my undergrad/LS pedigree would already signal to 3L employers that I'm no dumb, but my 1L grades whiffed. 2L grades improved but I don't know how much employers will credit that because it might be hard to assess if their perception is that "everyone's grades inflate after their 1L year."

I only have a few weeks left at my summer employer. I've deliberately sought out assignments from the alums here (CCN). Other full-time attorneys here are similarly credentialed (or else they were the top of their class, fed clerkships, etc.) My co-interns--not that they're any less for it--don't exactly scream a summer class for which hiring was all that competitive.

For my alum supervisors, I tried doing assignments (eg memos) with some extra flair, organization, presentation etc. I aimed for their quality to be as if they were final exams, not that they be merely acceptable or simply "gets the job done."

Of course, there's only so much spice that I can squeeze into some rather mundane assignments that most college sophomores can do.

Most of the alums used to work at biglaw firms I'd like to apply to. Is there a way to ask my alum supervisors to give more assignments of the "demanding" variety, and at the end of the summer, to write an LOR or put in a good word with their former employers that my 1L grades don't capture my full potential or something like that?

[Mr. Archer]

If you've worked closely with certain attorneys and done good work, those attorneys would probably be good references for you. But grades are always important to employers. I'm not sure how bad your 1L grades were if you "whiffed" and how much 2L made up for that. This is especially true given that your hiring class was apparently not that competitive. I have a hard time believing all the other interns make the class look non-competitive and that you're the one shining star.

[Anonymous User]

This is especially true given that your hiring class was apparently not that competitive. I have a hard time believing all the other interns make the class look non-competitive and that you're the one shining star.

Sorry, what I meant was: if all you looked at were where all the interns are currently enrolled, the employer wouldn't strike you as one that was picky regarding schools. I'm not saying I'm the lone star or that I'm a star at all--I have no idea what the other interns are up to, but I do hear some of them complaining that they're doing goose-chase doc-review, which is something I've tried to avoid by occupying myself with tasks that require some sentience.

It's a federal dept/agency so I had no idea how competitive it was at the time I chose to come here. I just did it because a fed dept/agency in this location (nonDC), in this field, is one of the few places where I could say with a straight face I "chose" to summer here, instead of having to resort to it.

Asking them to be references isn't that big of a deal; what I was wondering was whether I could ask for (or may have already done) work assignments that make my alum supervisors feel comfortable in affirmatively reaching out to their ex-colleagues in some of the biglaw firms I'll be applying to.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think if you specifically ask references to say your 1L grades don't reflect your potential, it will look weird - and it's also basically violating the principle that you don't want to apologize and shouldn't bring up your own weaknesses. You want to have people talking about what good work you did over the summer, in part because that's what they actually know about; they can't comment on your grades. Just let your good work speak for itself.

I also think asking for assignments that would make them feel comfortable affirmatively reaching out to their former firms sounds weird, frankly. Just do a really good job on what they have you do. Frankly it can be pretty hard to find tasks that are appropriate for interns to do, so you want to avoid making it sound like you're dissatisfied with what they've given you.

[Anonymous User]

I also think asking for assignments that would make them feel comfortable affirmatively reaching out to their former firms sounds weird, frankly. Just do a really good job on what they have you do. Frankly it can be pretty hard to find tasks that are appropriate for interns to do, so you want to avoid making it sound like you're dissatisfied with what they've given you.

OK Thanks. I'll just keep asking them for assignments of a certain kind (e.g., research in field X), not of a certain quality or difficulty.

They've responded positively to the work I've done so far. If I keep it up, no matter what tasks they give me, would it also "sound weird" to ask them simply whether they can reach out to their former firms, or suggest some names to whom I can name-drop, with their permission, my supervisors? That is, to not tie it to anything that could imply dissatisfaction with my internship experience?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I guess my sort of life approach is that in these situations, it's more appropriate to find some way to let your reference volunteer to put in a good word, rather than asking them to do so directly. So instead of saying "can you put in a good word with me with firm X" I'd be more likely to ask "can you put me in touch with anyone at Firm X, who I could talk about their practice group in [whatever] and what would be a good way to get into that field?" That way they can either say politely, "oh gosh, I really don't know anyone there anymore" (and don't have to say to your face, "I don't want to vouch for you," which is unpleasant for everyone), or they can say "hey yeah, let me email my buddy Chuck and see if he'd be willing to talk to you," which gives them the chance to mention to Chuck that you're a great intern and did a great job.

You could even just say "I would like to send an application to Firm X and could I talk to you sometime about the firm." If they know you're applying, they're going to get that you would love them to contact Firm X.

But some people might be able to pull off the more aggressive/direct approach. This is based on my own comfort level with this kind of stuff. And my experience is much more on the fed side than on the firm side, so take it all with a grain of salt.

[Anonymous User]

OP: Sorry, I should've clarified where I was coming with this: Word on TLS is that, when interviewing with firms as a 3L, they care a lot about whether you got offered at your 2LSA. Understandably, being no-offered is a red flag; getting an offer signals that at least one other firm deemed you capable of doing the work.

In my situation, many federal agencies (including the one I'm at now) basically have a policy of not hiring anyone straight out of law school, so regardless of how well any summer intern performs, the summer internship is simply not designed to offer a path to FT employment.

Insofar as firms care whether you've passed the trial run at another firm, I figured that the best I can do is to get my supervisors who used to work at these firms to vouch for me as someone capable of handling the work.

Or is that too weird a request?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Everyone will know there isn't a path to permanent employment through your federal agency; if your references speak highly of you and say that you can do the work, that will be sufficient. You don't need to look for someone who was at a firm to say that if you'd been at a firm this summer you'd have been capable of doing the work. Doing good work wherever shows that you can do the work. It's not like there are separate scales of good work for law firms and federal agencies.

[pancakes3]

OP sounds like a poster in the 3L OCI thread. OP, between the neuroticism, condescension, and your instinct to inject "flair" into your assignments, I can already tell that you kind of suck. Sorry your grades are what they are but keep in mind that maybe you struck out at OCI the first time around because of your personality, not because of your grades or a concern for lack of horsepower. I mean, you are at CCN and have an Ivy-esque UG.

hth, coming from a place mostly of love.

[Anonymous User]

OP sounds like a poster in the 3L OCI thread. OP, between the neuroticism, condescension, and your instinct to inject "flair" into your assignments, I can already tell that you kind of suck. Sorry your grades are what they are but keep in mind that maybe you struck out at OCI the first time around because of your personality, not because of your grades or a concern for lack of horsepower. I mean, you are at CCN and have an Ivy-esque UG.

hth, coming from a place mostly of love.

I lurk in the Vale but otherwise I start my own threads when I have a question.
I don't inject "flair" just to show off or anything. It's to make the work product a memorable read, rather than "just another word document that does what the supervisor asks for." So far, my work product has been received favorably.

I don't condescend down to my co-interns. I didn't throw that in there as a "oh btw, here's a cheap shot at my TTT co-interns." As I clarified above, I only mention them as context: they (quite audibly) complain that they're stuck doing mindless doc review. Which spurred my initial question: how to get work assignments that'd stand out.

TYIA

[SFSpartan]

OP sounds like a poster in the 3L OCI thread. OP, between the neuroticism, condescension, and your instinct to inject "flair" into your assignments, I can already tell that you kind of suck. Sorry your grades are what they are but keep in mind that maybe you struck out at OCI the first time around because of your personality, not because of your grades or a concern for lack of horsepower. I mean, you are at CCN and have an Ivy-esque UG.

hth, coming from a place mostly of love.

I lurk in the Vale but otherwise I start my own threads when I have a question.
I don't inject "flair" just to show off or anything. It's to make the work product a memorable read, rather than "just another word document that does what the supervisor asks for." So far, my work product has been received favorably.

I don't condescend down to my co-interns. I didn't throw that in there as a "oh btw, here's a cheap shot at my TTT co-interns." As I clarified above, I only mention them as context: they (quite audibly) complain that they're stuck doing mindless doc review. Which spurred my initial question: how to get work assignments that'd stand out.

TYIA

It actually doesn't matter why you inject flair into your assignments. Your supervisors aren't psychics and can't tell that you injected flair into your assignments to make them a memorable read. Moreover, doing anything other than what you were asked to do risks you missing the point of whatever assignment you were given, or making errors, because you are two focused on flair.

The way to stand out as an intern is to do excellent work, regardless of what you are assigned, and to not avoid certain types of work. By avoiding doc review, you may actually be pissing your supervisors off - though this is likely a small enough thing that they won't directly confront you about it. I have one personal anecdote, and one from a close friend of mine to illustrate.

First, the personal anecdote. I graduated and am currently studying for the Bar. However, I've kept in relatively close contact with my team this summer for numerous reasons that I'm not going to get into here. One of the topics we have discussed is the summer we hired. She is going to be no-offered, but she doesn't know it yet. She does great work, but the no offer is going to be due to attitude. According to my junior partner (i.e. my direct boss), she has actively tried to avoid some mundane transactional tasks, like diligence. As a result, the junior partner has to do them. This pisses him off, and in any case, he shouldn't have to do the mundane shit - that is what we paid a summer for. I'm not to attribute thoughts to the summer here, as I have no idea what she is thinking; however, it wouldn't surprise me if she was trying to do more complicated work in an attempt to stand out. Moral of this story: Take on all work, regardless of how you feel about it, and do a good job. Your job is to do whatever you are given, and help the attorneys you work for, not to stand out (in a negative way).

Now, the one from my friend. My friend and I graduated from a T1 in CA. He had cum laude grades and summered at a big firm in Hawaii. The class was made up of him and a kid from B. My buddy put his head down and did whatever he was told. He made some mistakes, but mistakes were to be expected. In contrast, the kid from B tried to pawn off doc review assignments on my buddy, openly complained about getting certain types of work, and clearly gave preference to certain assignments (i.e. he put in tons of effort on assignments he thought would make him look good, and was relatively inattentive for super low-level stuff). The kid from B also acted condescendingly towards my buddy (from his vantage point, the kid from B made multiple comments about how the education at our school was inferior to B, how kids at B were smarter, etc. - I suspect the B kid didn't actually realize he was doing this). At the end of the summer, my buddy ended up with an offer, and the kid from B did not. While I do not know the reason for the no offer, I suspect that here, as with the story above, that it was mostly about personality and attitude.

To be clear, it is fine to seek out assignments from CCN alums. It's also fine to try and do your best work. However, you should focus on the work assigned, rather than flair. You should also not deliberately avoid tasks you believe are beneath you - this is an excellent way to stand out for the wrong reasons. To stand out for the right reasons, be nice to everyone, keep your head down, and do an excellent job on all assignments, regardless of how you feel about them. Doing so is an excellent way to get assignments that will allow you to stand out.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Injecting flair into assignments to make them a memorable read is a terrible idea. I'm glad it seems to have worked out for you so far but it's really not a helpful attitude at all. People who assign stuff are absolutely asking you to do just what the supervisor asks for. Just do it impeccably and thoroughly.

[pancakes3]

OP sounds like a poster in the 3L OCI thread. OP, between the neuroticism, condescension, and your instinct to inject "flair" into your assignments, I can already tell that you kind of suck. Sorry your grades are what they are but keep in mind that maybe you struck out at OCI the first time around because of your personality, not because of your grades or a concern for lack of horsepower. I mean, you are at CCN and have an Ivy-esque UG.

hth, coming from a place mostly of love.

I lurk in the Vale but otherwise I start my own threads when I have a question.
I don't inject "flair" just to show off or anything. It's to make the work product a memorable read, rather than "just another word document that does what the supervisor asks for." So far, my work product has been received favorably.

I don't condescend down to my co-interns. I didn't throw that in there as a "oh btw, here's a cheap shot at my TTT co-interns." As I clarified above, I only mention them as context: they (quite audibly) complain that they're stuck doing mindless doc review. Which spurred my initial question: how to get work assignments that'd stand out.

TYIA

1) Flair. Do you have an example of "flair" ?
2) How does the added context that your TTT co-interns went to TTT's, not "scream a summer class for which hiring was all that competitive", and coming from schools where "the employer wouldn't strike you as one that was picky regarding schools" add to the fact that they're doing goose-chase doc-review?

[Anonymous User]

How does the added context that your TTT co-interns went to TTT's, not "scream a summer class for which hiring was all that competitive", and coming from schools where "the employer wouldn't strike you as one that was picky regarding schools" add to the fact that they're doing goose-chase doc-review?

All the more reason I'd need my supervisors to affirmatively reach out, in case the people reading my application on the other end think I also did nothing but goose-chase doc review in a meaningless summer internship. That's what I fear the application-readers would think, absent some credible supplementary material (e.g., LORs from my supervisors).

[A. Nony Mouse]

You shouldn't be asking for LORs, though, just for people to be references. And I get why you're anxious about this, but I don't think you can control this as much as you're hoping. If you did good work on substantial stuff, your references will say that. Do not express concerns to your references that they say specifically that you did substantive work though; you can't micromanage what they say that closely. It looks weird.

[jimmythecatdied6]

Flair, I imagine, means inserting an irrelevant but famous quote somewhere in your memo. Or maybe using lots of latin. I don't know. Either way, it sounds like a terrible idea, and OP's writing is probably worse because of it.

[pancakes3]

How does the added context that your TTT co-interns went to TTT's, not "scream a summer class for which hiring was all that competitive", and coming from schools where "the employer wouldn't strike you as one that was picky regarding schools" add to the fact that they're doing goose-chase doc-review?

All the more reason I'd need my supervisors to affirmatively reach out, in case the people reading my application on the other end think I also did nothing but goose-chase doc review in a meaningless summer internship. That's what I fear the application-readers would think, absent some credible supplementary material (e.g., LORs from my supervisors).

1) how is this not condescending?
2) how does someone's school relate to the work that they were assigned?
3) how would a firm know that you did doc review vs. flair-filled memos just by reading your resume? you'd TELL them what you did in the interview.

[Anonymous User]

You shouldn't be asking for LORs, though, just for people to be references. And I get why you're anxious about this, but I don't think you can control this as much as you're hoping. If you did good work on substantial stuff, your references will say that. Do not express concerns to your references that they say specifically that you did substantive work though; you can't micromanage what they say that closely. It looks weird.

The work I've thus far have all been substantive. That part of the OP was more about how to ensure that for the rest of the summer but since there isn't a lot of the summer left, I'll just drop that bit and continue doing what I'm doing (i.e., work that requires sentience).

Re: LORs: I've seen boilerplate LORs for past interns. Just scattered in random locations like the Downloads folder before I even started for the summer. They're on fancy letterhead and signed at the bottom--I know one of those isn't going to do me much good. Neither would one where the supervisor just goes "write it yourself, I'll sign it."

I was thinking more about a more informal email to their ex-biglaw colleagues (either "can you suggest some other people at [firmX] I should speak to" or "can you introduce us...")

1) how is this not condescending?
2) how does someone's school relate to the work that they were assigned?

OK boss let us continue our livening discussion of whether I included that in there in condescension, like I'm not aware that I'm not one to talk, since I'm right there with them.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sure, ask people if they can put you in touch with someone at the firm.

My point about LORs was more that firms don't ask for them so it would be weird to provide them, so it doesn't matter what the ones you saw looked like.

[pancakes3]

OK boss let us continue our livening discussion of whether I included that in there in condescension, like I'm not aware that I'm not one to talk, since I'm right there with them.

... apparently you're not. i'm not trying to pick a fight. you legitimately come off like you're condescending. now you're coming off as condescending AND defensive. but ya know what? flair makes the world go round so i'm sure you're good.

which btw, you ducked the question the first time around. what's an example of your flair?

[wons]

.

[Anonymous User]

OK boss let us continue our livening discussion of whether I included that in there in condescension, like I'm not aware that I'm not one to talk, since I'm right there with them.

... apparently you're not. i'm not trying to pick a fight. you legitimately come off like you're condescending. now you're coming off as condescending AND defensive. but ya know what? flair makes the world go round so i'm sure you're good.

which btw, you ducked the question the first time around. what's an example of your flair?

Thanks. Sorry for "coming off as...defensive." Let me stop being defensive by agreeing with you on everything. By flair you're probably imagining that I read through 800 pages of Oliver Twist to pluck a juicy quotation. First, so that I'm not defensive, let me agree with you on that one. But really, what I meant was that I made everything better than they had to be. As if they were graded. But again, lest I "come off as defensive," let me agree with you once more for good measure. Also, let me thank you for continuing this enriching dialogue with me.

Grades count infinitely more than LORs for 3L hiring. Summer assignments are a joke. LORs are helpful (in that they prove you are not deranged) but so far from sufficient that it is not even funny.

I think philosophically, you need to approach your job search differently. In all likelihood, you don't have as much legal aptitude as your peers. Doing competent basic legal research doesn't change that. So what can you offer potential employers? Are you exceptionally good at producing clean, typo free work? Charismatic? Super organized and a great project manager? There's a lot more to being a lawyer than raw legal horsepower, so try to find and highlight what you're good at. Because it will be, literally, years before your professional record outweighs your grades from a horsepower perspective.

I get that LORs don't mean jack. No one would read them. By "recommendations," I meant my supervisors putting me in touch with their former colleagues. I.e., "can you recommend me to John Smith, Partner at Smith LLP."

Legal aptitude: Outside of one semester during which I had other things going on, my transcript looks like most of my peers'. Yes, everyone's grades improve after their first year, but that doesn't negate that, 1L Spring and afterward, my transcript looks like many of my peers'.

[pancakes3]

OP, I have no idea what you mean by flair. That's why I asked. I don't think you wrote your briefs and memos as an acrostic, or quoted Dickens - at least I hope you didn't. But I don't know. It could have been egregious. You said some really cryptic and bizarre things like how you wrote things "as if they were graded" or "quality to be as if they were final exams" which is a weird metric to calibrate how "good" your work product is. Exam writing is completely different from legal writing, and 99% of interns out there try their hardest for summer assignments - even the TTT ones.

Also, you being "condescending" and "defensive" really isn't up to you agreeing or not. Condescension especially is contingent on the subjective perception of others. If your co-interns pick up on your condescension, or worse yet your supervisors pick up on it, it really doesn't matter that you had the proper mens rea to commit condescension (do you like the flair I just injected there? do you think it made my post substantially better?).

I think the advice that people are trying to offer - which you refuse to acknowledge is: your work product doesn't mean jack shit. No amount of flair will compensate for your grades. In fact, as long as your work product is "good enough," no amount of flair wil compensate for your attitude/personality and it sounds like you have a shitty attitude/personality. But hey, that's just like, my opinion.

[Anonymous User]

OP, I have no idea what you mean by flair. That's why I asked. I don't think you wrote your briefs and memos as an acrostic, or quoted Dickens - at least I hope you didn't. But I don't know. It could have been egregious. You said some really cryptic and bizarre things like how you wrote things "as if they were graded" or "quality to be as if they were final exams" which is a weird metric to calibrate how "good" your work product is. Exam writing is completely different from legal writing, and 99% of interns out there try their hardest for summer assignments - even the TTT ones.

Also, you being "condescending" and "defensive" really isn't up to you agreeing or not. Condescension especially is contingent on the subjective perception of others. If your co-interns pick up on your condescension, or worse yet your supervisors pick up on it, it really doesn't matter that you had the proper mens rea to commit condescension (do you like the flair I just injected there? do you think it made my post substantially better?).

I think the advice that people are trying to offer - which you refuse to acknowledge is: your work product doesn't mean jack shit. No amount of flair will compensate for your grades. In fact, as long as your work product is "good enough," no amount of flair wil compensate for your attitude/personality and it sounds like you have a shitty attitude/personality. But hey, that's just like, my opinion.

lol that you still think Latin, legal jargon, and Dickens are what I meant by flair. I know that if my supervisors pick up on anything problematic, it'll be a problem.

I didn't do the assignments the way I did in order to "compensate for [my] grades." My grades, cumulatively thus far, shouldn't generate any laughter, although one of my 1L grades was lower than what firms would've liked last summer.

I did my work that way because, insofar as entry-level hiring cares about whether another firm has deemed you capable of doing SA work, it'd be ideal if my supervisors noticed that my work product was a cut above my coworkers' despite containing no more Latin, jargon, or Dickens than theirs. From there, I was hoping to parlay my supervisors' recognition into an introduction to their ex-employers/former colleagues.

Ooops, I went off script. What I meant to say was: you're right about everything. Sorry if I came off as defensive there. 1) Explain?!? You're totally [__]; 2) I don't think I was ___ because; 3) wtf, now you're __ AND defensive about it.

Why don't I save us both some time--whatever you say, I have no disagreements whatsoever.

[pancakes3]

1) I don't know what you mean by flair. I'm pretty sure I've said that repeatedly. What do you mean by flair? If it means you did a good and thorough job, that's not flair. That's just doing what's expected, no matter if you're at a V10 or shitlaw.

2) You didn't get a SA at a firm and now you're trying to make up for it by turning in work product that you think would demonstrate your "horsepower" so you can get a second bite at the BL apple because your 1L grades resulted in you striking out. That's feels a lot like "compensating for grades." How would you characterize it?

3) You've actually stuck to your script of denying constructive criticism quite nicely.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that you think you're better than your cointerns. It's obvious. You think they're stuck doing doc review while you've been asking for *substantive* assignments. You also think you've flaired your way into turning in work that's a "cut above" even though you have no idea what their work product looks like. I'm not sure what "context" that's supposed to provide other than you think you're better than they are - either you're substantively smarter, or craftier in being able to avoid menial assignments.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that you're being defensive when confronted. Every single poster has told you your flair is misguided and you're still defending your use of it.

I especially don't know why you can't admit that this all an effort to compensate for low grades. There's no shame in that. The curve is what the curve is. Some people strike out at OCI. Hustling for a second chance is expected. It's not a deficiency. But know that your energy is misguided. As long as your work product passes the "good enough" bar, any additional flair is not going to make a difference in your supervisor passing your resume along, and the hiring contacts aren't going to ask "does he/she have the horsepower?" They'll look at the resume and either give you a call or toss it.