HLS EIP 2016

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TripTrip

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HLS EIP 2016

Postby TripTrip » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:30 pm

Last edited by TripTrip on Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:29 pm

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby cjw564 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:09 pm

Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:37 pm

cjw564 wrote:Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.


This is too pessimistic. I know people who struck out despite participating in OCI but both people I know in that situation were openly halfhearted about participation (e.g. badmouthing the big firm business model in interviews, and/or refusing to interview with firms who represented oil and gas companies). Also, 4H is not mediocre grades. Perhaps 2H is. And you need a combination of mediocre grades and other things to strike out.

A couple random anecdotes based on friends whose grades I know were average or worse:
(1) 3H, very charismatic/good interviewer, ended up at v40 and switched to v10 via mass mail.
(2) 1H, the guy who wouldn't interview at firms that represented energy companies - struck out but got hail mary clerkship,
(3) H/P unknown, at least 1 LP - V50
(4) 2H - V20
(5) 3H, bad interviewer, scruffy appearance - V70, switched to v20 in 3L OCI
(6) grades unknown, took several classes with her and would not be surprised if she got multiple LPs - consistently overwhelmed, etc. struck out as 2L, Am Law 100 job via mass mail
(7) straight P - V15 in specialized practice area - but no particular background in said area.

Just realizing now it's creepy how many people's grades and outcomes I know - must have overdosed on TLS. Guess I will switch to anon...

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby TripTrip » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:04 pm

cjw564 wrote:But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.

I won't say striking out never happens, and practicing is always good. But as far as EIP job offers go, 4H students tend to be well inside the bell curve.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby lawlorbust » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:17 pm

cjw564 wrote:Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.


Sorry but I disagree completely. I'm sorry EIP didn't work out for the poster, but the people who strike out at HLS are the same people who would have struck out at YLS or SLS. You really got to jump through some hoops: either be outstandingly terrible academically OR just being unable to last a 30 minute interview (or both).

Take EIP seriously, but don't have a need to feel any sort of panic.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby foxes » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:31 pm

Checking in. Definitely underperformed in the spring, will start prepping for eip as soon as I've got some free time :cry:

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby foxes » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A couple random anecdotes based on friends whose grades I know were average or worse:
(1) 3H, very charismatic/good interviewer, ended up at v40 and switched to v10 via mass mail.
(2) 1H, the guy who wouldn't interview at firms that represented energy companies - struck out but got hail mary clerkship,
(3) H/P unknown, at least 1 LP - V50
(4) 2H - V20
(5) 3H, bad interviewer, scruffy appearance - V70, switched to v20 in 3L OCI
(6) grades unknown, took several classes with her and would not be surprised if she got multiple LPs - consistently overwhelmed, etc. struck out as 2L, Am Law 100 job via mass mail
(7) straight P - V15 in specialized practice area - but no particular background in said area.

Just realizing now it's creepy how many people's grades and outcomes I know - must have overdosed on TLS. Guess I will switch to anon...

Sorry in advance for the dumb q:
When you said switched via mass mail, do you mean the person didn't bid/didn't get an interview slot with the new firm, but reached out to them via mass mail anyway? Or the person was dinged by the new firm during eip and mass mailed them later.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Indifference » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:40 pm

Also checking in. Pretty much bombed second semester, so I'm right there with ya.
Is 4H 6P (5Ps in spring) and targeting lit in boston doable? I really have no idea how to go about researching this...

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby TripTrip » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:48 pm

Indifference wrote:Also checking in. Pretty much bombed second semester, so I'm right there with ya.
Is 4H 6P (5Ps in spring) and targeting lit in boston doable? I really have no idea how to go about researching this...

I don't have my dataset here to check, but that sounds reasonable.

Also, looking at getting rid of the stacked area charts that were notoriously hard to read last year and switching to these to list Dope EIP results:
Image
Thoughts, anyone? (Compare to the first firm listed under Chicago.)

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:55 pm

cjw564 wrote:Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.


Feel compelled to chime in as well, because this is not accurate information and I would have panicked if I'd seen this post before I did EIP. 4H is not mediocre, and I have never heard of anyone striking out with those #s. Know some people who got V5 with 4H, some who got V10 with 2-3H, and many who got V25 with 2-3H. Of course everyone should try to sharpen their interview skills before EIP, but please don't panic if you only have a couple Hs. As long as you bid reasonably (a few V10s, quite a few V25s, and mostly V50s) and act like a normal/pleasant human being, you should be fine.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Indifference » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:56 pm

TripTrip wrote:
Indifference wrote:Also checking in. Pretty much bombed second semester, so I'm right there with ya.
Is 4H 6P (5Ps in spring) and targeting lit in boston doable? I really have no idea how to go about researching this...

I don't have my dataset here to check, but that sounds reasonable.

Also, looking at getting rid of the stacked area charts that were notoriously hard to read last year and switching to these to list Dope EIP results:
Image
Thoughts, anyone? (Compare to the first firm listed under Chicago.)


I think this is a marked improvement for readability. Only thing I would say is make sure the font color contrasts, dumb as that may sound.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby TripTrip » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:59 pm

Indifference wrote:
TripTrip wrote:
Indifference wrote:Also checking in. Pretty much bombed second semester, so I'm right there with ya.
Is 4H 6P (5Ps in spring) and targeting lit in boston doable? I really have no idea how to go about researching this...

I don't have my dataset here to check, but that sounds reasonable.

Also, looking at getting rid of the stacked area charts that were notoriously hard to read last year and switching to these to list Dope EIP results:
Image
Thoughts, anyone? (Compare to the first firm listed under Chicago.)


I think this is a marked improvement for readability. Only thing I would say is make sure the font color contrasts, dumb as that may sound.

Good point. I'll either go with white overlap font or with a lighter bar color. Thanks for the input!

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby downbeat14 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:40 pm

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby cjw564 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:45 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
cjw564 wrote:Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.


Sorry but I disagree completely. I'm sorry EIP didn't work out for the poster, but the people who strike out at HLS are the same people who would have struck out at YLS or SLS. You really got to jump through some hoops: either be outstandingly terrible academically OR just being unable to last a 30 minute interview (or both).

Take EIP seriously, but don't have a need to feel any sort of panic.


Firstly, I never implied that EIP was panic-worthy. I said you MIGHT have trouble if you have mediocre grades (median is between 3-4 h, so 4 h still counts as mediocre on the curve) AND you are not as good with interviews. Most are still fine even if both of those conditions are true. HLS students have better employment prospects than all but 2 law schools in the U.S. and I know people (pretty average kjds) with straight p at every V10 except WLRK and Sullcrom - good outcomes are very likely regardless of grades at H. But it does not mean you should let your guard down - people who strike out never expected to strike out. I was far too optimistic coming into EIP because of the school's atmosphere and I do not want others to make the same mistake.

I came close to striking out and know a single digit of (non-pi track) people with different grades (from those with lp to a guy with 6 H) who either struck out or came close to striking out, so it gives me a different perspective from most posters here who are likely very successful during EIP. It is much easier for us to commiserate with people in a similar situation than to show our desperation to those who are complaining about having to choose between 12 cbs. I do not wish anyone in the class of 2018 to share my experience, but for those who do, know you are not the only one and don't give up.

Also, I disagree with your assertion that people who strike out at H will strike out at Y/S. Anecdotally, at my firm, we have some rainmakers who graduated from YLS and SLS who maintain very close relationships with their schools. Because so few students from YLS/SLS are interested in the firm, those alum partners go out to bat for each candidate who come to our cb and we have a policy of giving Y/S cb candidates offers unless they seriously offended one of their interviewers. On the other hand, my firm gets about 3 to 5 H students every summer. Because we see so many more students from H, the HLS alum partners would never go out to bat for an individual candidate because of school alone. The hiring committee is expected to no offer some HLS students in the cb stage just like they are expected to no offer some CLS/NYU/UChi students. If you look at the V15 partner thread, someone mentioned that their firm also has an 100% yls cb-to-offer policy.

Statistically, HLS has almost 3x the students as YLS/SLS. Yet if you look at most of the V50, HLS partners would generally outnumber YLS partners at a 2:1 ratio (or less). At some of the higher ranked firms (especially in the DC office), there might be more YLS partners than HLS partners. Moreover, if you look at associate headcounts, there tend to be more HLS associates than HLS partners at a given firm yet less YLS associates than YLS partners. At the lower ranked firms, you might have 1 YLS associate to 10 YLS partners/counsels. Let's say on the hiring committee, you have 6 HLS partners and 3 YLS partners, they are choosing 10 summers from a pool of students. 5 of those students went to H and 1 went to Y. Of course the lone Y student gets the leg up over any individual H student among the five. Y's advantage is amplified because a higher percentage at YLS opts out of EIP relative to HLS. You see the same trend in clerkship applications. Even though there are more HLS judges than YLS judges, the size of H means that the HLS judge:HLS student ratio is far lower than the YLS judge:YLS student ratio. When judges look to hire an alum, YLS students will probably have an easier time.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:15 pm

So essentially in this thread, we learned that people who are medianish or below may have some risk of striking out. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

Re the person who had 6H and struck out: i went to C/N and I know one guy who has a 3.65 (top 12-15%) who still managed to strike out. He was fairly unpresentable and had a really awful story about his educational history. Just not a good interviewer. It happens, but it's rare.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:43 pm

cjw564 wrote:
lawlorbust wrote:
cjw564 wrote:Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.


Sorry but I disagree completely. I'm sorry EIP didn't work out for the poster, but the people who strike out at HLS are the same people who would have struck out at YLS or SLS. You really got to jump through some hoops: either be outstandingly terrible academically OR just being unable to last a 30 minute interview (or both).

Take EIP seriously, but don't have a need to feel any sort of panic.


Firstly, I never implied that EIP was panic-worthy. I said you MIGHT have trouble if you have mediocre grades (median is between 3-4 h, so 4 h still counts as mediocre on the curve) AND you are not as good with interviews. Most are still fine even if both of those conditions are true. HLS students have better employment prospects than all but 2 law schools in the U.S. and I know people (pretty average kjds) with straight p at every V10 except WLRK and Sullcrom - good outcomes are very likely regardless of grades at H. But it does not mean you should let your guard down - people who strike out never expected to strike out. I was far too optimistic coming into EIP because of the school's atmosphere and I do not want others to make the same mistake.

I came close to striking out and know a single digit of (non-pi track) people with different grades (from those with lp to a guy with 6 H) who either struck out or came close to striking out, so it gives me a different perspective from most posters here who are likely very successful during EIP. It is much easier for us to commiserate with people in a similar situation than to show our desperation to those who are complaining about having to choose between 12 cbs. I do not wish anyone in the class of 2018 to share my experience, but for those who do, know you are not the only one and don't give up.

Also, I disagree with your assertion that people who strike out at H will strike out at Y/S. Anecdotally, at my firm, we have some rainmakers who graduated from YLS and SLS who maintain very close relationships with their schools. Because so few students from YLS/SLS are interested in the firm, those alum partners go out to bat for each candidate who come to our cb and we have a policy of giving Y/S cb candidates offers unless they seriously offended one of their interviewers. On the other hand, my firm gets about 3 to 5 H students every summer. Because we see so many more students from H, the HLS alum partners would never go out to bat for an individual candidate because of school alone. The hiring committee is expected to no offer some HLS students in the cb stage just like they are expected to no offer some CLS/NYU/UChi students. If you look at the V15 partner thread, someone mentioned that their firm also has an 100% yls cb-to-offer policy.

Statistically, HLS has almost 3x the students as YLS/SLS. Yet if you look at most of the V50, HLS partners would generally outnumber YLS partners at a 2:1 ratio (or less). At some of the higher ranked firms (especially in the DC office), there might be more YLS partners than HLS partners. Moreover, if you look at associate headcounts, there tend to be more HLS associates than HLS partners at a given firm yet less YLS associates than YLS partners. At the lower ranked firms, you might have 1 YLS associate to 10 YLS partners/counsels. Let's say on the hiring committee, you have 6 HLS partners and 3 YLS partners, they are choosing 10 summers from a pool of students. 5 of those students went to H and 1 went to Y. Of course the lone Y student gets the leg up over any individual H student among the five. Y's advantage is amplified because a higher percentage at YLS opts out of EIP relative to HLS. You see the same trend in clerkship applications. Even though there are more HLS judges than YLS judges, the size of H means that the HLS judge:HLS student ratio is far lower than the YLS judge:YLS student ratio. When judges look to hire an alum, YLS students will probably have an easier time.


Don't think the dispute is really about whether Y students tend to have better outcomes. They do. But to suggest that H students with "4 Hs or lower" who have some discomfort with interviewing (don't we all) should start practice interviewing "as much as possible" is just going to scare people. Playing semantics a bit here, but medianish grades at H are not considered "mediocre" by most firms.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby polareagle » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:53 am

cjw564 wrote:
lawlorbust wrote:
cjw564 wrote:Good luck to everyone. Things will work out for most.

But hls is not y/s. People who never intend to do pi do strike out. You just won't hear about it irl. Practice interview as much as possible if you are not comfortable with interviews and have mediocre (4 h or lower) grades.


Sorry but I disagree completely. I'm sorry EIP didn't work out for the poster, but the people who strike out at HLS are the same people who would have struck out at YLS or SLS. You really got to jump through some hoops: either be outstandingly terrible academically OR just being unable to last a 30 minute interview (or both).

Take EIP seriously, but don't have a need to feel any sort of panic.


Firstly, I never implied that EIP was panic-worthy. I said you MIGHT have trouble if you have mediocre grades (median is between 3-4 h, so 4 h still counts as mediocre on the curve) AND you are not as good with interviews. Most are still fine even if both of those conditions are true. HLS students have better employment prospects than all but 2 law schools in the U.S. and I know people (pretty average kjds) with straight p at every V10 except WLRK and Sullcrom - good outcomes are very likely regardless of grades at H. But it does not mean you should let your guard down - people who strike out never expected to strike out. I was far too optimistic coming into EIP because of the school's atmosphere and I do not want others to make the same mistake.

I came close to striking out and know a single digit of (non-pi track) people with different grades (from those with lp to a guy with 6 H) who either struck out or came close to striking out, so it gives me a different perspective from most posters here who are likely very successful during EIP. It is much easier for us to commiserate with people in a similar situation than to show our desperation to those who are complaining about having to choose between 12 cbs. I do not wish anyone in the class of 2018 to share my experience, but for those who do, know you are not the only one and don't give up.

Also, I disagree with your assertion that people who strike out at H will strike out at Y/S. Anecdotally, at my firm, we have some rainmakers who graduated from YLS and SLS who maintain very close relationships with their schools. Because so few students from YLS/SLS are interested in the firm, those alum partners go out to bat for each candidate who come to our cb and we have a policy of giving Y/S cb candidates offers unless they seriously offended one of their interviewers. On the other hand, my firm gets about 3 to 5 H students every summer. Because we see so many more students from H, the HLS alum partners would never go out to bat for an individual candidate because of school alone. The hiring committee is expected to no offer some HLS students in the cb stage just like they are expected to no offer some CLS/NYU/UChi students. If you look at the V15 partner thread, someone mentioned that their firm also has an 100% yls cb-to-offer policy.

Statistically, HLS has almost 3x the students as YLS/SLS. Yet if you look at most of the V50, HLS partners would generally outnumber YLS partners at a 2:1 ratio (or less). At some of the higher ranked firms (especially in the DC office), there might be more YLS partners than HLS partners. Moreover, if you look at associate headcounts, there tend to be more HLS associates than HLS partners at a given firm yet less YLS associates than YLS partners. At the lower ranked firms, you might have 1 YLS associate to 10 YLS partners/counsels. Let's say on the hiring committee, you have 6 HLS partners and 3 YLS partners, they are choosing 10 summers from a pool of students. 5 of those students went to H and 1 went to Y. Of course the lone Y student gets the leg up over any individual H student among the five. Y's advantage is amplified because a higher percentage at YLS opts out of EIP relative to HLS. You see the same trend in clerkship applications. Even though there are more HLS judges than YLS judges, the size of H means that the HLS judge:HLS student ratio is far lower than the YLS judge:YLS student ratio. When judges look to hire an alum, YLS students will probably have an easier time.


Not to keep quibbling, but I think it's been pretty well established that median is 2-3 H after 1L. Somewhere in the ask a student thread there are some deep dives into statistics, and I'm sure Trip has data to back it up.

As far as schools, you noted that you're reasoning anecdotally. The disparity b/w HLS and the others may well be true at your firm, but every firm is different. At mine, for example, HLS merited its own hiring committee sub-meeting (as did YLS, SLS, and one other school) while many other schools were lumped together. The HLS alums apparently fight for their candidates (and for a larger HLS portion of the class) just as much as any other school could. This is particular to my firm and not generalizable but the same holds true for your firm. There are just too many variables based on people.

Is it going to be easier for a run-of-the-mill YLS or SLS candidate to get a job at a run-of-the-mill New York firm? Sure. Because, as you note, there are fewer of them.

But if you're bidding New York without LPs, I think striking out has to be some combination of bad bidding, bad interviewing, and bad luck. That's not meant to be a criticism. Some of us are simply going to gel with our interviewers better than others. A few bad interviews for firms you were counting on can put anyone in a rough position. And the same applies at SLS and even occasionally at YLS.

OP's post is helpful in reminding everyone they should go into this process eyes open. Unless you know you're a great interviewer (meaning you've secured multiple competitive REAL jobs through interviews), do some practice and get some feedback. Be realistic about your bid list. Talk to OCS. But EIP is going to work out well for the vast, vast majority of HLS students. And OCS's entire point of being is to make sure that those who strike out end up alright before graduation.

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:57 am

1H/9P here. Figured that NY Corporate is the way to go, but my summer job/past experiences have nothing to do with corporate stuff, plus that I still have no idea about what corporate people are doing everyday. How should I come up with a compelling "I'm fascinated with M&A deals" story? Any chance to land on litigation? Thanks for any input!

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:1H/9P here. Figured that NY Corporate is the way to go, but my summer job/past experiences have nothing to do with corporate stuff, plus that I still have no idea about what corporate people are doing everyday. How should I come up with a compelling "I'm fascinated with M&A deals" story? Any chance to land on litigation? Thanks for any input!

2nded :( I'm just a little panicky now

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby nothingtosee » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:12 am

Good luck!

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:33 am

Anyone here have experience doing EIP with really weird grades (1DS/3H/5P/1LP). The "strategic bidding" chart on OCS only talks about H/P grades so I am having a tough time figuring out where I stand. Targeting lit in Chicago if that makes any difference. Thanks for any advice!

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Re: HLS EIP 2016

Postby TripTrip » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:1H/9P here. Figured that NY Corporate is the way to go, but my summer job/past experiences have nothing to do with corporate stuff, plus that I still have no idea about what corporate people are doing everyday. How should I come up with a compelling "I'm fascinated with M&A deals" story? Any chance to land on litigation? Thanks for any input!

Don't fret it. Interviewers genuinely don't expect you to know what transactional lawyers do. Most firms expect you to figure it out over the summer by taking a variety of work. For those firms, you can flip it and say you're not totally sure which you'd prefer but you're excited to try both.



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