Big 4? How? Why? When? Forum

[ezjojo30]

So Ive seen a fair bit of talk about getting into a Big 4 accounting firm. I never consdiered that a path of legal employment. I tried doing a search but came up pretty empty on the subject. Would someone care to give a run down. How do law students get in front of a big 4 firm? When to apply? What is the pay like? What is the process like, do they hire for a summer then permanent position? More or less competition for positions than big law? Anything else to add?

[Anonymous User]

not op
how difficult is it to get big4 or any other big accounting firm from a T2/T3? does a top tax llm make one more attractive as a candidate even if jd was from T2/T3? what grades are needed etc

[RaceJudicata]

Multiple friends at Big 4 (KPMG NY, PWC Chi/NY, PWC Phila), and have inquired with them to get some info on hiring/role atty's play at the firms. Ultimately did not pursue this avenue, but this is the info was I was able to get:

1. Pay is b/w 75-90k, but can be more if you get LLM. Also depends on city of course.

2. Work is interesting - or at least is more interesting than what my friends who are tax accountants are doing

3. No need - or at least minimal need - for pre-law school accounting experience.

4. A lot of the lawyers (again, small sample size), are those that wanted big law transactional and struck out and feel like it is a secondary outcome. But nonetheless, seems to be good work.

5. Partnership at those firms pays $$$, although the path to get there is still a long one, it is possible


Feel free to correct me if wrong/different info

[Anonymous User]

Multiple friends at Big 4 (KPMG NY, PWC Chi/NY, PWC Phila), and have inquired with them to get some info on hiring/role atty's play at the firms. Ultimately did not pursue this avenue, but this is the info was I was able to get:

1. Pay is b/w 75-90k, but can be more if you get LLM. Also depends on city of course.

2. Work is interesting - or at least is more interesting than what my friends who are tax accountants are doing

3. No need - or at least minimal need - for pre-law school accounting experience.

4. A lot of the lawyers (again, small sample size), are those that wanted big law transactional and struck out and feel like it is a secondary outcome. But nonetheless, seems to be good work.

5. Partnership at those firms pays $$$, although the path to get there is still a long one, it is possible


Feel free to correct me if wrong/different info

I'll chime in. Prior to law school, I spent multiple years with PwC Tax, major market, through Senior Associate level. I went through the typical accounting undergrad pipeline -- summer internship, returned full-time after grad.. Was very actively involved in on-campus interviews, office visits, etc. so I saw plenty of JD & LLM candidates come through before I left for law school...

First, responding to poster above.

1. Regarding starting pay: Above sounds about right for JDs - I'd guess 72-85k base depending on the market. LLM may bring 10k more or so. [110k base was best offer I heard for LLM candidate in my particular market; candidate was campus recruit from a top Tax LLM.] Check Glassdoor for "tax associate" or "tax consultant" for Big 4 firms in your market, and JD/LLM types will likely be toward the upper end of the pay range given. (Big 4 compensation is fairly consistent across the firms at a given level). Without prior tax experience, you will be an Associate, but if you perform well, you can expect a fairly quick promote to Senior Associate (within 1-1.5 years). FWIW, I did not see any JD or LLM come in at Senior Associate level in my office during my time.

2. Work can be interesting, yes - however, I did not see any JDs and LLMs completely avoid tax compliance (I assume that is what previous post meant by "what the tax accountants are doing"). Tax consulting projects are lucrative, but compliance keeps the lights on at these firms. HR is quick to move resources around when certain teams are slammed - particularly during busy season - so I'd guess you'll need to stumble your way through a tax return (1040, 1065, 1120) at some point. This kind of work would obviously vary by practice group within your firm, but I would venture that the majority of JD/LLMs typically end up in one of three groups at PwC -- M&A, SALT (State & Local Tax), or ITS (International Tax Services). There is definitely interesting work to be done in these groups, but you'll be right there in the trenches with lowly "tax accountants." I would advise making friends with them, since they likely have the quantitative/business background that you lack.

3. Regarding accounting experience: no, not officially required. But the firm can be picky because you're going up against JDs and LLMs who may be accounting/finance/economics undergrads. I would focus on doing really well in your "Accounting for Lawyers" class and any tax classes you do take. Helps support the inevitable "Why our firm? Why tax?" answers you will need to have ready.

4. Nothing to add, except some candidates saw Big 4 as preferred outcome over Biglaw, rather than a "secondary." Different strokes..

5. From a compensation standpoint, Big 4 is a pretty lucrative gig once you get up to Manager and Director levels. And obviously Partners make more - although the track is typically longer than BigLaw and is against similar odds. But hey, you could be the special unicorn snowflake that makes it!

Responding more generally as to How?/When?/What? questions of the OP:

- Typical path varies based on what year you are in school. If you are a 2L, you can apply for summer internship. Pay will be in the $25-30/hour range, plus 1.5x overtime and you get to go to Disney World for a week at the end. Offer rates generally fall in the 90-100% range, with no-offers generally reserved for falling asleep at work, getting too drunk on a booze cruise, etc. You'll be with accounting undergrads, but depending on your group, you'll get to put your shiny, new legal research skills a couple times. If you are a 3L or LLM, you will be applying for a full-time position (since you don't have a summer to spend with the firm). Either way, go to the Careers section of each firm's website for more information.. It's all there...

- Regarding relative competition for positions... Coming in out of undergrad, the GPA cut-off was generally pretty high (3.7+), and varied by target school status, but I never saw a similar cut-off for JD/LLMs. I doubt there is a strict grade requirement, but better grades (especially in tax classes), better chances. Not sure how the process varies at a T2/T3 school - maybe slightly higher grades needed? (Sorry I can't be more helpful there.) Taxation LLM credential obviously helps as it showcases your commitment to tax, academic interest, etc. Like I said, practice your "Why Tax?" response.

- I would add that the best path in is always going to be employee referral. Reach out to your accounting buddies, kids from your undergrad/law school who work there, any connection you can. (There are referral bonuses -- anywhere from $1,000 up to $5,000+ -- if that provides incentive for them to pass your resume along to the recruiter. Note that these may be withheld for "campus hires," but I know PwC at least is considering removing law school hires from that umbrella.)

- There are lots of other solid firms beyond the Big 4 -- check out more "regional" firms like Grant Thornton, BDO, McGladrey, Plante Moran, Moss Adams, etc. I cannot speak to their hiring practices for JDs or LLMs, but I'm guessing there may be opportunities, especially if they have an office in your school's proximity. Again, check out the Careers section of their websites.

Hope at least some of this is helpful. Some other good "Big 4" threads on this site, but happy to contribute to this one.

[dabigchina]

[]

[Anonymous User]

former big4 manager here: a couple of points

1. Manager is not that lucrative. You will still be making less money than a first year biglaw associate.
2. Hours still suck, especially if you are in M&A. SALT and International JD's dont work that hard though.
3. Don't even think about trying to make partner. The track there is 12-15 years (with 12 being a bit of a reach.)
4. I've never seen a fresh associate get promoted in 1 Year. Just doesn't happen.

one good thing about accounting: the firms have awesome pensions for partners.

ETA: another thing i forgot is exit ops. industry exit ops from the big4 are pretty good after a few years (low six figures in high COL areas). Also, some JDs can lateral to biglaw after a couple of years, although I wouldn't count on this.

ETA2: don't work at a non big4 if you want to work with smart people. everyone i have worked with from lower tier firms has been painfully stupid.

1. Didn't realize first year biglaw associate salary was the standard for "lucrative" - but yes, most likely earning less than $160k as Manager. But six-figures in general may be lucrative enough for some people. My point was simply Associate and Senior Associate levels are nowhere close to biglaw counterparts, but the relative pay gap closes more quickly at Manager/Director levels. It should be no secret that BigLaw pays more than Big 4 - but you can still make decent money in Big 4.

2. If you're wanting a 40-hour/week job, look at a different industry or in government. In my experience on the tax side, explicit billable hour requirements typically ranged from 40-55 hours per week at the Associate level, depending on whether it was "busy season." Some of us obviously billed more based on our engagement or deal flow. Still beats IB and at least some portion of biglaw associates.

3. Agreed on longer partnership track.

4. It happens.

5. Agreed on the partnership pensions and industry exit-opps -- excellent points.

6. There are plenty of smart people in other firms outside the Big 4. And to OP, if you find a job offer at one of those firms, enjoy the gainful employment.

[dabigchina]

..

[Anonymous User]

Removed your username from quote. Feel free to delete that previous post if that's what you're worried about.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for responding!

Not OP - Is international tax difficult to get or can you potentially self-select into it with J.D. and relevant experience?

[ezjojo30]

One question I didnt see answered: Hiring timeline? is it too late to apply? too early? what is the process like?

All the information that has been provided has been extremely helpful

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for responding!

Not OP - Is international tax difficult to get or can you potentially self-select into it with J.D. and relevant experience?

I don't know if one group is more "difficult to get" than another, but a JD + relevant experience seems like a great place to start for ITS. I imagine recruiter/hiring committee would want to see good grades in several courses relevant to international tax. I'd actually be interested to hear what "relevant experience" might mean in this case.

One question I didnt see answered: Hiring timeline? is it too late to apply? too early? what is the process like?

All the information that has been provided has been extremely helpful

For summer internships is rolling during Fall and Spring. No, not too late to apply. Lots of office visits happen during the spring, generally in the form of a superday, where you will meet with 4-5 people over the course of a couple hours and get lunch with associates/seniors. Pretty similar to law firm callbacks in terms of an emphasis on "fit" within a team. Interviewers typically run through your resume, talk about the firm, and ask a behavioral question or two -- "Tell me about a time you showed leadership...", etc. You can find additional interview questions on Glassdoor.

For full-time positions, identify a job opening on the career website for the firm (again, look for "Tax Associate" or "Tax Consultant" depending on what each firm calls its first-years) and apply. Again, I would emphasize making a connection within the firm prior to applying so you can use the employee referral route - at least guarantees your resume/cover letter will be seen by recruiting, since HR will have to report back to the employee about his/her referral.

[Anonymous User]

FYI I'm a 3L starting at a Big 4 in International Tax Services in NYC next fall and making $100k/yr starting without an LLM or any relevant experience besides this summer. The hours are better than biglaw, the benefits are significantly better, and they aren't going to push you out after 4 years. I'm not saying it's objectively better than biglaw, and the ceiling is significantly lower, but it could definitely be preferable for a lot of people.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for responding!

Not OP - Is international tax difficult to get or can you potentially self-select into it with J.D. and relevant experience?

most of the new hires in ITS in my old office have had little to no relevant experience.

as to GPA cut offs for JDs, I have no idea. I will say that in general big4 tend to be GPA sensitive but not sensitive to how prestigious the school its from (they would probably take top 25% from a TTT over below median at a T14.) This may be a quirk of my market rather than a general rule, however.

also, ITS people tend to make pretty good money, have decent hours, and good exit opportunities. If i were to go back to the big4 I would probably go for ITS or transfer pricing.

[gaddockteeg]

Not sure how comparable tax is to regulatory, but I have a friend who summered at PWC regulatory in NY and has an outstanding offer to rejoin next fall (2016). Salary is just under 130k after bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Just to clarify, are these JD/Bar passage required positions?

[Anonymous User]

most tax jobs are JD advantage (would need a CPA otherwise).

[Anonymous User]

most tax jobs are JD advantage (would need a CPA otherwise).

100k anon here. I was actually curious how my job would be classified. Like, I am required to pass the bar for the job, but some people in the group only have CPAs. I guess that's JD advantage?

[Anonymous User]

most tax jobs are JD advantage (would need a CPA otherwise).

100k anon here. I was actually curious how my job would be classified. Like, I am required to pass the bar for the job, but some people in the group only have CPAs. I guess that's JD advantage?

Sounds like a sweet gig, would you mind sharing stats?

[Anonymous User]

most tax jobs are JD advantage (would need a CPA otherwise).

100k anon here. I was actually curious how my job would be classified. Like, I am required to pass the bar for the job, but some people in the group only have CPAs. I guess that's JD advantage?

Sounds like a sweet gig, would you mind sharing stats?

~Top 40% at USC/UCLA/UT/Vandy. I benefited from some very late spring off-cycle hiring. Got quite lucky tbh.

[Anonymous User]

"FYI I'm a 3L starting at a Big 4 in International Tax Services in NYC next fall and making $100k/yr starting without an LLM or any relevant experience besides this summer. The hours are better than biglaw, the benefits are significantly better, and they aren't going to push you out after 4 years. I'm not saying it's objectively better than biglaw, and the ceiling is significantly lower, but it could definitely be preferable for a lot of people."

Thank you so much for your insights! I have some f-u questions.

1) For your summer internship, was your pay in the $25-30/hour range even if you were in NY? Because if we multiply $30 * 40 hrs/week * 52 weeks, $62.5k is significantly less than your starting salary of $100k.

2) As one of the responders mentioned above, I believed starting salary would be $72-85k base depending on the market if you do not have LLM. How did you negotiate to start with $100k/yr? Is it because you will start in NY?

Again, thanks so much for your tips!

[SemperLegal]

Just browsed PWC and KPMG career page. Looks like they are great for Biglaw exit plans if you are in a related area.

3-5 Years= Manager at 125-130k
5-8 Years= Sr. Manager at 170-190k
8-12 years=Director at 180k-233k

Plus everyone loved their bonuses (6% 401(k) match, plus a pension, level benefits)

Heard through the grapevine though that the treat non-CPAs as second class citizens, but at that salary I'd take those 60 credits online or something

[Anonymous User]

"FYI I'm a 3L starting at a Big 4 in International Tax Services in NYC next fall and making $100k/yr starting without an LLM or any relevant experience besides this summer. The hours are better than biglaw, the benefits are significantly better, and they aren't going to push you out after 4 years. I'm not saying it's objectively better than biglaw, and the ceiling is significantly lower, but it could definitely be preferable for a lot of people."

Thank you so much for your insights! I have some f-u questions.

1) For your summer internship, was your pay in the $25-30/hour range even if you were in NY? Because if we multiply $30 * 40 hrs/week * 52 weeks, $62.5k is significantly less than your starting salary of $100k.

2) As one of the responders mentioned above, I believed starting salary would be $72-85k base depending on the market if you do not have LLM. How did you negotiate to start with $100k/yr? Is it because you will start in NY?

Again, thanks so much for your tips!

I was paid ~$40/hour during the summer, with 1.5x OT for time over 40 hours. I only averaged like 5-10 hours of OT per week, but that little extra was quite nice.

I didn't negotiate salary at all. I was honestly expecting 80-85k, mostly based on what I've seen online and around TLS, but when the official offer letter arrived it said 100k. I just accepted and didn't ask any questions lol.

[Anonymous User]

Just browsed PWC and KPMG career page. Looks like they are great for Biglaw exit plans if you are in a related area.

3-5 Years= Manager at 125-130k
5-8 Years= Sr. Manager at 170-190k
8-12 years=Director at 180k-233k

Plus everyone loved their bonuses (6% 401(k) match, plus a pension, level benefits)

Heard through the grapevine though that the treat non-CPAs as second class citizens, but at that salary I'd take those 60 credits online or something

Long-winded PwC alum from above.. Just wanted to clarify the 401(k) match for PwC: the firm matches only 25% of your contribution up to 6%. Not sure about the policy of other Big 4. Rest of the compensation information above looks fairly accurate with the caveat that there can be fairly wide salary bands at a given level (depending on years of experience, advanced degrees, performance, etc.). Again, Glassdoor.com.

As for non-CPAs being treated like second class citizens, what do you mean? In my experience, as long as our JD/LLM hires passed the bar, they were on the same footing as we were with our CPAs. You just need a credential. PwC (other Big 4 as well) pays for you to get your first credential - whether it's the CPA or bar passage - so you can get bar review, exam fees reimbursed coming in as a JD. Almost positive you'd be on your own to then pursue the CPA credential.

Also, I wouldn't advise taking the CPA exam if you don't have an accounting background...
(1) You don't need it - just focus on passing the bar to get the "credential" required for promotion.
(2) For a non-business undergrad, you will need to pick up a bunch of business/accounting credits just to sit for the CPA exam. Specific requirements vary state-by-state, but typically at least 20 Accounting credits plus another 30-40 credits in general business.
(3) Do you really want to study that material? Couple of the sections will just destroy your soul. Even accounting kids dread this stuff.
(4) More than likely, you will not pass each section (there are four) on your first try. The firm only pays for your first attempt at each.
(5) You have to pass all four sections within a 12- or 18-month window, depending on your state.
(6) Annual CPA dues to your state board, CPE requirements... On top of your CLE... Just don't do it.

[SemperLegal]

As for non-CPAs being treated like second class citizens, what do you mean? In my experience, as long as our JD/LLM hires passed the bar, they were on the same footing as we were with our CPAs. You just need a credential. PwC (other Big 4 as well) pays for you to get your first credential - whether it's the CPA or bar passage - so you can get bar review, exam fees reimbursed coming in as a JD. Almost positive you'd be on your own to then pursue the CPA credential.

It's second hand info, but just that CPA have an edge for offices and partnership over similarly situated JDs.

[Anonymous User]

As for non-CPAs being treated like second class citizens, what do you mean? In my experience, as long as our JD/LLM hires passed the bar, they were on the same footing as we were with our CPAs. You just need a credential. PwC (other Big 4 as well) pays for you to get your first credential - whether it's the CPA or bar passage - so you can get bar review, exam fees reimbursed coming in as a JD. Almost positive you'd be on your own to then pursue the CPA credential.

It's second hand info, but just that CPA have an edge for offices and partnership over similarly situated JDs.

Former manager from above. This is only true to the extent that jds tend to be in specialty groups which tend to have fewer partners. Adding a cpa does nothing for your chances.